Okay. Here is the situation.

Four years ago my first daughter was born. This spurred me to evaluate my home, vehicle, work, and pack first aid capabilities.

In doing so, I upgraded to carrying several "Israeli Badages" (6" w/ sliding pad) along with "Quick Clot" blood coagulant in an effort to be all high speed low drag when or if it ever came to a major blood spilling injury.

My first aid training is limited to US Army combat life saver, basic Red Cross first aid / CPR (Infant to adult), and some additional bio hazard / blood born pathagen protection training.

Anyway, I have been carrying the "Quick Clot" stuff for 4 years now and while at work I was recently provided information from one of the local paramedics. He informed me that they (local ambulance service) had received information that "Quick Clot" was causing burns, and other complications such as post injury infections on patients. I believe these reports are from current military after action reports.

I had read in the past that "Quick Clot" did "Heat Up" but I did not know about any "Burns". The paramedic basically said the "Quick Clot" actually was cauterizing the blood vessels, thus stopping bleeding.

Once applied to a casualty, the pain from the "Quick Clot" is suppose to be very intense causing the patient to be un able to focus on self aid or any other task that may aid in the situation they are in.

So I conducted an experiment. I opened a package of "Quick Clot" and added "some" (1/4 cup ish) of water. The "Quick Clot" IMMEDIATLY began to pop and make noise and got VERY HOT. I would guess it reached 300 to 400 degrees within five seconds. I was only able to hold the package by its laminated edges. You could not hold the main portion of the package with your hands.

Needless to say, after demonstrating the same "experiment" to several friends and co workers, I have removed all "Quick Clot" from my first aid kits.

I could not imagine the result of putting that burining stuff on one of my girls.

I understand there is a "Cooler" version of "Quick Clot" on the market now. I recomend anyone carrying such a product conduct an evaluation of its "Burning" capabilities prior to shoving it on or in a major wound.

Its going to be tourniquets and Israeli Bandages for my worst case first aid kits.

What's in your first aid kit????????

I used a QuickClot product - Bleed-X - on myself a few months ago, and didn't experience any heat, pain or anything like that.
I'll ask the guys at the medic squad what they have experienced with gunshot wounds and that stuff.

"...Its going to be tourniquets..."

Please keep in mind that you only apply a tourniquet if you are willing to lose the limb you are applying it to...

You might take a look at blood stop gauze.

-john

QuickClot does have the potential for generating quite a bit of heat. However, please be mindful that your homemade experiment would be considered inappropriate use of the product. If you bought the QuickClot four years ago...I seem to recall that when it first came out, you couldn't buy the product without stating that you had or were going to have the proper QuickClot-specific training to use it. The training material quite clearly warns that excess water should be removed before applying QuickClot to minimize heat generation. In addition, as little of the product should be used as necessary. So, pouring a quarter cup of water into a full pouch of QuickClot may provide dramatic results, and does show its potential for burning under the wrong circumstances, but its not really an appropriate experiment, in my opinion.

There are other "blood stopping" options, like Bleed-X which uses a plant starch-based material, or some chitosan-impregnated bandages if you wanted to try something else. These other products do not generate heat. I'm not sure if they are any less or more effective than QuickClot, though.

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think that any of these products has really been tested on children, so you should consider that, too.

Keep those little ones safe!

IMHO, based upon watching the evolution of ER medicine for 30 years: ER docs spend a lot of time reading the literature and evaluating new products. They do not use quik clot or any other miraculous products. They contend that direct pressure stops bleeding every single time. sometimes the direct pressure needs to be a forcep-hemostat-kelly clamp applied to the artery involved, but mostly it involves a nurse pushing on a dressing. I have pushed on dressings for hours upon occasion. It's a living.If you sprinkle anything into a wound-corn starch, antibiotic powder or ointment, whatever-you create a place for bacteria to hang out. If you irrigate the wound with peroxide, alcohol, merthiolate, or iodine, you will kill the bacteria, but you will also kill the healthy sells at the margins of the wound and do more harm than good. Current Er doc thinking suggests that the wound be copiously irrigated with sterile saline solution (boiled water, 1 tsp salt per quart of water) or clean water (tap water is fine) then wrapped in a pressure dressing( elastoplast tape is effective, but the skinflints won't buy it for the ER; we use ace bandages). orthopedic surgeons use tourniquets a lot, to control bleeding at the operative site (they call it orthopedic ooze) but they watch the time and release the tourniquet regularly. Tourniquets are risky, and make sense if the choices are sacrificing a limb or bleeding out.

Lots of information, and misinformation, in this thread. Some points:

- In general (there are exceptions) ER personnel bring a rose-colored perspective to trauma care. They are accustomed to working in a secure environment with fast access to surgeons, operating rooms, advanced diagnostics (X-ray, CT, MRI, labs) and lots of hands to help them. This perspective often does not translate to even civilian prehospital care, and it most certainly does not translate to military battlefield care or remote wilderness care. The ER people who do understand these different environments are usually the ones who have spent some time in them.

- The current PHTLS protocol for extremity bleeding control is 1) direct pressure and 2) tourniquets. Elevation and pressure points have been dropped... because for REAL bleeding they don't help, they just waste time & blood before moving on to a tourniquet. If the bleeding is minor enough for elevation & pressure points to help, then direct pressure would have worked in the first place.

- The idea that "tourniquet = lost limb" is outmoded and has been soundly disproved in even the harshest environments. Read up on TCCC for details. Here is another informative link. Think back to the situation we're talking about: you've opened up an artery and are squirting blood like mad. Are you going to [censored] about what might happen to the limb in hours, or focus on what WILL happen in minutes if you don't stop the flow?

- For those of you who think that if you get shot or stabbed that EMS will be charging in to save you, think again. Whenever we have a call that in any way involves weapons or violence, the police are sent in first and have to secure it before they will allow us to enter. It takes time for the police to get there, and it takes time for them to secure the scene. How much will you bleed from a serious wound in 5, 10... or 60 minutes? I've seen it take that long. You need to know how to do your own immediate action trauma care, and you need to have the tools to do it.

When you have to apply real pressure on a pressure point, if the victim is conscious he/she is not going to like it, and will be very vocal abouit it. If the victim has family around and sees you kneeling on ole dad's upper arm and hears him screaming his head off, they might very well try to stop you. Violently. Same if they see you pushing on their teenaged daughters upper inner thigh. Military medicine and the civilian stuff can be very different. I am not saying don't do it, I just want anyone who plans on practicing roadside medicine to be aware...

I seem to recall a thread here about using instant mashed potato flakes as a quick-clot substitute. After reading this stuff, it sounds much better than quick-clot.

Here is some info on that...

Very good thread on stuff that knife and saw users should know.

Is this kind of thing covered in any Red Cross First Aid course?

In Band of Brothers, it was mentioned that, if the the femoral
artery was cut, it could withdraw, all the way into the pelvic
area, where normal medics could not stop the bleeding.
Does anyone know if this is really rare, given that the artery
was cut?
Could an EMT, medic, nurse etc even tell it happened?

"...Could an EMT, medic, nurse etc even tell it happened..."

I have seen a couple of severed arteries, but never a femoral, so I am just guessing here. One would be able to tell that the artery was cut from the volume and type of blood. As far as it retracting, I just don't know. Not much an EMT, etc could do about it anyway, other than pack on dressings and pressure...

If you cut your femoral, you're pretty well hosed, just like the carotid. It is a high pressure pipe as big as you thumb. People have survived it, but they've been awfully lucky.

Actually, the only information I've seen relavent to Quikclot or the like is on this situation. I was shown a video where they severed the femoral artery of an anethesized pig. They let it bleed for a few moments to get a really good flow going then dumped Quikclot into the wound and applied pressure. After several minutes of pressure they rinsed away the excess Quikclot and low and behold the wound had stopped bleeding. I was impressived by the performance.

I don't know if I like the idea of using the stuff if I don't have to, but the same is true of a tourniquet. For dire situations, this is something I'd want on hand (although I don't have any currently). Also, while the mixture of Quikclot and water may have heated up substancially, I don't think it was 300-400 degrees, keep in mind water boils at 212 F. MRE heaters get hot enough you can barely hold the corners, but you can still pretty well eat the meal inside right after you take it out. The stuffs meant for life threatening injures. Given the choice between losing a limb to a tourniquet or bleeding out, I'd rather lose a limb. Given the choice between being scalded and bleeding out, I'll take the scald.

Me too. I have a couple tubes of the squirt in stuff Quikclot, keep it around just in case I give myself a REALLY BAD cut when we are off boondocking someplace. One of those life and death things. And yes, losing a limb is better than death, trouble is that many folks (hopefully not many here) get their first aid training from Hollywood, and might slap a tourniquet on a relatively minor cut. Kind of like sewing yourself shut just like Rambo...

Celox blood stopping powder doesn't release any heat when applied.

hmmm! For people who go way back into the woods (guides, hunters, survival instructors, etc.) this seems like a no brainer. Wilderness first responder is far different than that of urban first responder. In the wilderness help may not be a phone call away(no cell phone coverage). You might be back quite a few miles, and extraction may not be immediate. Guess what, protocol is different and you better stop that bleeding right damn now!

when I'm out guiding, I'm the first responder. And I sure as hell don't want someone bleeding out because help is not an option.

I will take whatever help I can get; however, it better be safe to use.

Alan Halcon

Check out Celox...looks likes a great clotting agent. Her's a couple of links about it:

http://www.celoxmedical.com/info.htm

http://www.beyondbulbs.com/Celox-A-Granular-Hemostat-pr-177.html?gclid=CLHJnbOI140CFQlQWAod-we5mQ

A couple of years ago I was fishing in the boonies when I slipped on a slick rock and cut an artery in my knee. The flow of blood impressed me. I had a good 1st aid kit in my truck that had an Ace bandage and several gauze pads included. No matter how tight the Ace was wrapped the bleeding would not even slow. I tried using a tourniquet around my thigh but never successfully stopped the bleeding.

Fortunately it was a small enough artery that I made it to an ER where the Doc. had to open up the wound so he could get a hemostat on the artery.

Bottom line: If you cut a major artery you are probably toast. JMHO