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#99910 - 07/15/07 07:47 PM Re: Guy with TB travels anyway [Re: MDinana]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Couple of comments on this one chaps and my apologies if what I say seems a bit obnoxious.
1) I notice that the first reaction of the U.S.Goverment was to disown one of their citizen's by preventing him from reentering the U.S.
2) There seems to be an assumption that someone with a fatal untreatable disease, who is being treated as a pharah, is going to care what happens to to the people around him. Common decency aside that is. Which could be arguably lacking in the standard of conduct exhibited towards the gentleman concerned. Being hounded does not exactly engender a feeling of helpfulness and co-operation.
3) If he had been quarantined by the Italian's he would have been humanely treated.
4) One of the major reason's why detaining people is so difficult in these cases is because such powers have been abused in the past. Being able to confine someone incommunicado on medical grounds is the sort of powers much beloved of Dictators. So such powers have to be exercised with great caution and be subject to serious independant judicial oversight.
5) Were the matter not so serious, I for one would applaud a man who goes to his bride. Come hell or high water.

Having said all that I have to say that if I had a fatal transmittable disease there is no way in hell that I would let anyone I love anywhere near me.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#99927 - 07/15/07 10:22 PM Re: Guy with TB travels anyway [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
And that last statement of yours is quite to the point, isn't it? I would say that your delineation of what is right and decent and the proper thing to do in such a case would tend to preclude treating this fellow as a proper gentlemen, which no one could objectively accuse him of being now.

Courtesy I believe is a two way endeavor. Common decency would be warranted if such a person could demonstrate they are disposed towards their fellow traveller in like fashion. It was obvious from the start that this man neither had such a compassionate concern for anyone he encountered, let alone his own family, and so none was afforded him, as it should be.

Honor and respect are not things deserved or demanded, but earned. This person did nothing that would indicate he is worthy of receiving any such benefit, and persists in the same. Were the matter not so serious, then none of this would be an issue, and he would be home now enjoying the company of his new spouse, instead of facing imminent litigation.

Being a US Citizen doesn't mean much when you put the general public in danger for purely selfish reasons. Our jails are filling with citizens that we would gladly disown, and would be all to happy to send elsewhere if they are not happy with the way things are going for them here. I'd say the first reaction of the US Government was to tell this guy not to go anywhere in case things worsened so that maybe they could keep this thing under control and prevent or minimize the risk to himself and others, which he happily ignored. Not surprising how subsequent recommendations/actions would go.

I've seen Italian justice with foreigners before. I don't give them the same sort of credit you would. Then again, this guy does have a lot of cash, so they may have been kinder to him than they were to the kids in the hostels a few years back.

I agree that detention is an often abused process, which is all the more reason why travellers need to exercise better judgement lest they give cause for those in power to justify such abuses.

In reviewing the record, it appears that our TB infected traveller had no intention of caring what happened to anyone around him long before those who could sought to start controlling his actions. In fact, it was his wanton disregard that instigated such an attitude amongst the authorities and the public in general. One shouldn't expect any measure of sympathy after having already trampled on the welfare of others.

I found none of your comments obnoxious in the least, but quite stimulating for debate. Carry on mate.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#99987 - 07/16/07 07:56 PM Re: Guy with TB travels anyway [Re: benjammin]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
In fairness to the Italians: Any foreign national is in Italy upon the sufferance of the Italian People. They get seriously annoyed when people enter their society, abuse the privilege and then scream "I'm a -------- Citizen, how dare you!" The Polizi play hardball with perps. Its a very effective way of keeping the crime rate down.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#100001 - 07/17/07 02:36 AM Re: Guy with TB travels anyway [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe
Couple of comments on this one chaps and my apologies if what I say seems a bit obnoxious.
1) I notice that the first reaction of the U.S.Goverment was to disown one of their citizen's by preventing him from reentering the U.S.
2) There seems to be an assumption that someone with a fatal untreatable disease, who is being treated as a pharah, is going to care what happens to to the people around him. Common decency aside that is. Which could be arguably lacking in the standard of conduct exhibited towards the gentleman concerned. Being hounded does not exactly engender a feeling of helpfulness and co-operation.
3) If he had been quarantined by the Italian's he would have been humanely treated.
4) One of the major reason's why detaining people is so difficult in these cases is because such powers have been abused in the past. Being able to confine someone incommunicado on medical grounds is the sort of powers much beloved of Dictators. So such powers have to be exercised with great caution and be subject to serious independant judicial oversight.
5) Were the matter not so serious, I for one would applaud a man who goes to his bride. Come hell or high water.

Having said all that I have to say that if I had a fatal transmittable disease there is no way in hell that I would let anyone I love anywhere near me.


I feel the need to reply, basing my answers on the article.
1) They didn't turn their backs on him. They told him to get on a plane and get his butt back to the US. He didn't. In fact, one of the articles mentions that the CDC (IIRC), was sending a plane for him.
2)TB is not a "fatal untreatable disease." Heck, most stuff is treatable, and still fatal: HIV, many cancers, Cruzfeld-Jakobs Disease, etc. Besides, why should being sick automatically allow someone to become narcissistic and not care about anyone else?
3) Unless you've been quarantined by Italians, what are you basing this assertion on?
4) Totally agree.
5) Agree to an extent. Could also be called "stalking."

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#100012 - 07/17/07 03:31 AM Re: Guy with TB travels anyway [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I don't blame them one little bit. When in Rome obey the Roman laws, or suffer Roman justice. If you spray paint someones car, and the local penalty is getting a whipping, drop your drawers and bend over. Or, as the old saying goes, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime...
_________________________
OBG

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#100872 - 07/26/07 06:30 PM Re: Guy with TB travels anyway [Re: LED]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
So, Andrew Speaker was sent home today. After finding out that his extensively drug resistant TB was actually the somewhat less dire multidrug resistant kind, they eventually decided to still go ahead and remove the infected portion of his lung. They probably could've cured his MDR TB with antiobiotics, but it would take years of daily doses and might still fail after all that. So surgery sounds like a much swifter, more definitive treatment.

He was sent home by air ambulance. Doctors do not consider him contagious anymore and they would have let him fly a commerical flight home, but after what happened before, they thought it was better to send him home this way. He will still continue antibiotics for a couple years.

Oh, in other related news, remember Mr. Daniels from Arizona? The TB patient in the prisoner ward? He was transferred to the same hosptial where Andrew Speaker was, National Jewish Medical Center in Denver, a number of weeks back. The details were sketchy in the short news clip I read, but sounds like his condition is getting worse. I forget, but I believe he has XDR TB.

So, I guess that pretty much closes the book on Andrew Speaker's saga. Sure, he still faces lawsuits, but at least as far as his TB is concerned. From international manhunt to hospital discharge took maybe four months. Not bad. Maybe he should've taken a long honeymoon in Italy, eh?

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