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#94243 - 05/10/07 01:01 AM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: ]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
My guess would be that in most US jurisdictions, with a bad guy breaking into your home, armed with a deadly weapon, and exhibiting the intent to assault you (throwing the bottle for starters), if you are in fear of your life from this BG, you could centerpunch him with a real gun and the shooting would be ruled justifiable...
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#94246 - 05/10/07 02:41 AM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: ]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Let's see...

Breaks into your home, screaming and yelling and incoherent. Throws a club at you, then starts swinging longer club with the intent to commit, based your perspective as a residence of that structure and a "normal" person, bodily harm.

Bentirran, I'd like you to tell me what part of that you'd be OK with if it was your home. Would you simple ask him to stop trying to smash your skull in with the crowbar while you curl up in ball and cry at his feet? Seriously, what would you do?

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#94254 - 05/10/07 03:15 AM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: ]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Here in the great state of Lousy-anna/USA (we have the best politicians and police that money can buy), The intruder's body would be taken away and I would have a few questions to answer (at my home) and when the CSI team was finished, they and the other Police would leave to go about their business and I and my family would get some sleep in OUR beds.

Here, the following applies:
1) We have the right to shoot a carjacker.
2) I (male) have the right to shoot ANY intruder in my home.
3) My wife has the right to shoot an intruder through the front door if she feels that her life or the lives of children under her care, are threatened.
4) My wife has the right to shoot any intruder in the house.
5) We have the right to keep a loaded weapon in the car.
6) We have the right to keep loaded weapons in the house.
7) We have the right to carry a pistol in a holster, while hunting.

We consider pellet and BB guns to be deadly weapons, perhaps because southeners are known to be weapons familiar and knowledgable of how to use a weapon to it's most effectiveness, IMHO
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#94274 - 05/10/07 01:08 PM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: NightHiker]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
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Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Well, if the first weapon I had to challenge the intruder with was my loaded and cocked red ryder bb gun, I would probably shoot him and then start bashing his head in with the thing. I doubt the shot would do much but get his attention, but the bb gun would be lethal force thereafter, along with my size 12, assuming he isn't able to defend himself.

Fortunately, I don't worry about being inadequately armed in my own home against such invaders. Oh yeah, and the invader will be shown to have been lethally armed by the time the cops show up, whether he was at the time of entry or not.

Don't come into my house uninvited, unless it is on fire and you are trying to help save me.

Bentirran, there is no logical argument you can make that is going to justify to this crowd the outcome of this incident. This is one fundamental American concept that pretty much everyone here agrees on. Home invasion is just something we will never tolerate.
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#94278 - 05/10/07 01:51 PM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: benjammin]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...the invader will be shown to have been lethally armed by the time the cops show up, whether he was at the time of entry or not..."

Sounds nice, but get caught doing that (they are getting better and better at detecting that very thing) and you will suddenly go from the innocent guy defending himself to a bad buy trying to cover up his crime. It is a variation of the old saying, "once a lier always a lier"...
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#94279 - 05/10/07 02:06 PM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: OldBaldGuy]
norad45 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
"...the invader will be shown to have been lethally armed by the time the cops show up, whether he was at the time of entry or not..."

Sounds nice, but get caught doing that (they are getting better and better at detecting that very thing) and you will suddenly go from the innocent guy defending himself to a bad buy trying to cover up his crime. It is a variation of the old saying, "once a lier always a lier"...


So true. It's the same as the old "if you have to shoot someone outside, drag them inside". Exceedingly bad advice in this day and age.

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#94280 - 05/10/07 02:09 PM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: OldBaldGuy]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
I have always understood from our Police types that when you shoot an intruder and he falls outside, to pick him up and throw him back inside and that yes, the Police will be able to tell what happened and what you did....

Personally, I believe that if the impact(s) throws him on the outside of the door, I will just leave him there. Yes, I believe the Police will be able to figure out that he was inside when I blew him backwards. I believe that will cause less paperwork and...stuttering on my part, trying to explain why I did something hokey.

The Police will just figure that I have saved them a bigger investigation at some unknown future date.
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#94285 - 05/10/07 03:19 PM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: wildman800]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
"Yes your honor, after he grabbed my daughter's softball bat next to the front door there and started swinging away, that was when I drew my pistol and stopped his ruthless cold blooded attack on my family."

Sounds good enough to me.

Of course, I could just shoot him upon entry and be done with it, but where's the challenge in that? I guess the question is do I wait until he presents a suitable threat to initiate my defense, or do I just figure once he's inside that his intent all along is to do us in and smoke him where he stands?

I know which one I will pick every single time. I haven't had to put that play in motion as yet, somebody out there is lucky they haven't hit my place.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#94294 - 05/10/07 04:30 PM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: ironraven]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Bentirran, I'd like you to tell me what part of that you'd be OK with if it was your home. Would you simple ask him to stop trying to smash your skull in with the crowbar while you curl up in ball and cry at his feet? Seriously, what would you do?


I don't think this was part of the scenario I have put forward. This was not described in the BBC Scotland News report. From the rest of the replies to the specific scenario, I guess I can conclude the end result is the following if the same scenario was carried out in most US states,

Bay Guy - 'Center punched' - shot to death.

Good Guy - depending on which side of the door step or outside/inside property boundary the the 'Bad Guy' fell when he was 'center punched', either facing no criminal actions or first or second degree murder charges (dependent of which state of course this scenario is being carried out). Of course if 'Good Guy' is now facing a murder charge now gets described as 'bad guy'.

No great shakes though because in the grand scheme of things in the US we now have 2 bad guys - 1 dead, the other now facing the electric chair.

As described in the Scottish incident, I don't think at any point Mr Ali described himself as being in any mortal danger, the bottle was thrown at the father in law of the accused Mr Ali. (Mr Ali said he fired the air rifle to scare Mr Goldie - Mr Ali was not assaulted by the bottle throwing incident it would have been his father in law). As described in the BBC Scotland report it was not known whether any charges were filed against Mr Goldie (Bad Guy), there is of course nothing in the report also to suggest why Mr Goldie (Bad Guy) was attempting to enter Mr Ali's Father in Laws property also. This is an important consideration in trying to judge the actual motives of Mr Goldie. The BBC report does not mention the motives of Mr Goldie, who started the incident was. This would be speculation on everyones part as to whether Mr Goldie was indeed the 'bad guy' as insinuated by the news report.

Mr Ali was charged because he had used a firearm with the potential to kill the person he had aimed the weapon at. Mr Ali's explanation that he discharged the firearm as a means of self defense was not given. He was not in any mortal danger and had admitted this. Self defense argument was not given. Under Scottish law he had therefore committed a firearms offense in order to commit assault. In the reported BBC Scotland story the Judge had also taken into account that Mr Ali had been provoked. As Mr Ali had pleaded guilty to this offense under provocation I doubt whether Mr Ali will be jailed, but rather given community service. But we will have to wait and see.

Ironraven, to actually answer your point directly. If I was attacked in my own home with someone armed with a crowbar, I would attempt to fight of the attacker with the due force required to stop that attack, if it did mean killing the assailant in order to save my life or anyones else's life then so be it. To assume there is no right under Scottish law for a means of Self defense, then you are totally mistaken. To kill someone to stop other criminal acts such as burglary, theft, property damage under Scottish law would be considered murder. Human lives are not considered secondary to property ownership because it cheapens the value of human life itself.







Edited by bentirran (05/10/07 04:43 PM)

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#94297 - 05/10/07 05:14 PM Re: More anti-self defense silliness from Scotland [Re: norad45]
Be_Prepared Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 530
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: norad45
Originally Posted By: Susan
I agree with all the above, but I still like their Queen a lot better than our King.

sue


I like her too. It's easy to like somebody with no power. There's one thing nice about having a President though. Whether you love them or hate them, you only have to put up with them for 8 years max. Some places combine the power of a President with the longevity of a Queen, and you end up with a swine like Castro. Ugh.....


Yup, sometimes we forget that the US struggled to create a republic that was different for good reasons. If you read the Bill Of Rights, (the first ten ammendments to the US Constitution), it is essentially outlining some of the real problems and struggles that colonial America had dealing with British despotism. Many of the ammendments outlined specific rights that people wanted spelled out, so that there would be no ambiguity. Madison originally didn't want them, because he felt they were already implied in the Constitution. Later, he actually drafted them, and wrote that he felt they made the document stronger in the end.

We're not perfect, but maybe we still are "the last best hope"
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