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#94735 - 05/15/07 09:12 PM Survival Help
Ziggy Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 2
Me and my friends are going to try and survive in the wilderness for 3 days for a school project. We are filming all of it and it will be somewhat in the same vain as survive shows on television.

None of us don't know that much about the wilderness or the forest in general.

So I hoping some of the knowledgable people on this forums could give us a few hints and answer to a few of my questions.

1. We are trying to survive in the forests of northwestren Ontario. What is eatable and what is poisonus in this region?

2. What predators should we be aware of during the spring time? What are the most dangerous?

3. How to catch small animals to eat?

4. How to cook plants and animals we find?

5. Good material for building shelters and burning?

Thank you for your help


Edited by Ziggy (05/15/07 09:14 PM)

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#94736 - 05/15/07 10:08 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Ziggy,

Your post has actually caused me a little bit of concern. I think you may need to provide a little bit more information before answering some of the specific questions you have given.

Quote:

None of us don't know that much about the wilderness or the forest in general


This has actually caused me a little bit of concern. The first thing to ask is what ages are you and your friends are, as you have mentioned that you want to 'try' and 'survive' in the wilderness for 3 days as part of a school project.

What level of navigation skills do you have? Navigation in wilderness forests is actually quite challenging. 3 point resections are notoriously difficult in wooded and forested areas.

What level of survival equipment are you going to carry? (Man V Wild is a definitely not for beginners and trying to emulate some of these survival techniques shown on this TV show is going to yourself or your friends into trouble.)

How much time have you spent in the wilderness previously? Have you used traditional modern camping equipment before for example.

Sorry to ask these questions but the questions you have put forward appear to be quite naive. (We have all been there before of course and most survival knowledge is really just common sense combined with a few specific skills, navigation being one of the most important !!)














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#94740 - 05/15/07 11:30 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Loganenator Offline
Bike guy
Member

Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Sacramento, CA, USA
Hey Ziggy,

I would also warn on the side of caution...remember "proper preparation prevents poor performance". Always have several escape plans if anything goes wrong including having your location and a return timeline with a responsible person willing to call SAR if you are late upon return.

With that caveat check out Michel Blomgren's site: http://www.bushcraft.se/

He has a similar approach to you and your friends. Head out to the woods for lessons and film yourself in the meantime. The films are in Swedish but have English subtitles. He experiments and comments on hunger, minimal tools, getting lost and other scenarios.

Michel also lists some of his topics at: http://survival.tigerteam.se/index.html

Take care, :^)
Cheers,

_________________________
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - MK Gandhi


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#94742 - 05/15/07 11:48 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Quote:
Me and my friends are going to try and survive in the wilderness for 3 days for a school project. We are filming all of it and it will be somewhat in the same vain as survive shows on television.

None of us don't know that much about the wilderness or the forest in general.


Ziggy,

My advice:

Don't.

Part of survival is knowing how to not put yourself in more danger than you already are.

Take some time to learn from those experienced (classes, find a mentor, etc) and practice the skills you will need before you put your life on the line (that is what is at stake with "wilderness survival").

Start off with day hikes (equipped adequately) and move on to camping, backpacking, then work your way to survival situations.

It looks like fun on TV and it can get real ugly really fast and 3 days is plenty of time to die or worse (such as having to live a long life with the memory of watching a friend die).

If you read the past posts from those in the forum, you'll see where they've practiced certain skills in the backyard or park and found out what worked and what didn't. There is no substitute for hands on experience.

I'd hate to see you and your friends as candidates for the Darwin awards. frown





_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#94743 - 05/16/07 12:00 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Loganenator]
big_al Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 586
Loc: 20mi east of San Diego
Hi Ziggy:


My first respnce is for you to hook up with the local Boy Scouts, as they can answer all of your questions pertaining to your local area.

Then I would talk to the local RCMP and ask them where a good area for you to try your survival experment would be.

Then like most of us here on this net would do is leave a detailed plan as to where we are going to be, how we are going to get there, how long we will be gone and when we will be back.

Make 2 copys. one for your parents, and an extra one to give to the RCMP if you have trouble and require them to help you if you don't come home by the time you said you would.

Get a good book and read up on the subject, My I suggest a book call 98.6 degrees by Cody Lundin. This book will also tell you some of things you should have with you.

Reading some of the artical on this fourm will also give you alot of information. Learning about what you are trying to do is also part of your school project.

come back soon and let us know how you are doing, I know there are a lot of people here that would like to hear form you again.



Edited by big_al (05/16/07 12:05 AM)
_________________________
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#94744 - 05/16/07 12:12 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: big_al]
DrmstrSpoodle Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 138
I'm with samhain exactly here. Don't.

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#94745 - 05/16/07 12:16 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: big_al]
silent_weapon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 38
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Ziggy,

I too would strongly caution you against taking this action. By your post you don't have the requisite skills or knowledge to undertake such an adventure, yet...The good news is that by taking baby steps...you could gain such knowledge and isn't learning the whole point of school?

I would read a few books and then have a weekend "survival experiment" in your own back yard. That way your parents can keep an eye on you for your safety and if you decide to "throw in the towel" you can just walk inside and get a nice warm bath and a stomach full of food.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't go through with this project until you learn a bit more about yourself and the wilderness.

P.S. If you insist on making this film...You can make it appear to be a "survival" video but have your parents and an experienced hiker/camper in your "technical crew." They can stay off camera but keep an eye on you.

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#94746 - 05/16/07 12:18 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
I have to give you credit for asking......

3 days is a long time for a newby since it's a psychological shock to the newby. But 3 days isn't all that long. For instance, many of your questions imply gathering or catching food. After you do some reading you'll find that you mostly won't really require food for a 3 day survival period.

You DO need to know how to stay warm & dry and hydrated. Those items right there can be a big job if you don't have much equipment or know how to use what you have.

As others have said, unless you're filming an episode of Jackass Survivor, please start small with Boy Scout info and work up to 3 day adventures.

Unimogbert

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#94750 - 05/16/07 12:48 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: unimogbert]
J_Michael Offline
Almost a Stranger
stranger

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 7
Are you nuts, don't even think about it for now!

That's the first reaction most of us have based on what you are asking because “wilderness” and “forest” mean different things to people. Without hearing more, stay close to home at the tree line, keep the camera pointed into the woods for the audience benefit and practice the skills you research on tape. Be safe and by all means have fun!

Oh, and if you are asking in the hopes we will write your end of year paper on wilderness survival skills, good try, get to work!
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"Damn!"

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#94752 - 05/16/07 12:54 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: J_Michael]
Stu Offline
I am not a P.P.o.W.
Old Hand

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: Finger Lakes of NY State
I'd advise against doing it. But, IF you do insist on it, find someone who is a good outdoors person, or better yet 2 someones, and take them with you.
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#94754 - 05/16/07 01:05 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Ziggy Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 2
Thank you for your concern. I should of also mentioned that we aren't actually going that fair into the wilderness. Only about a 1km or so. So if anything does happen it is easy to get to a get help.

Me and my friends grew up in the country so we have a bit of exprience in the outdoors, but we have never tried to "survive" in the wilderness before by eating wild plants and such.

I really wanted to do this. And probably will no matter how dangerous it seems.

Any more advice would be great thank you

EDIT. After reading some more of your replies. I realised that i may have been a bit drastic with my expirment. We decided on 1 night with matches, .22 rifle and an axe. But i would still like to know about what plants to eat. So I can show it on camera and maybe get a few extra marks!


Edited by Ziggy (05/16/07 01:10 AM)

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#94756 - 05/16/07 01:30 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
OK....

First off, unless you are in cougar or bear country, right now, you don't need a firearm. Even then, you usually don't need a firearm. Don't get stupid and bears will leave you alone. Cougars are usually cowards unless you've got one that has developed a taste for manflesh, in which case a .22 isn't going to do much.

Second off, do you know what you are doing with an axe? Take a saw- yes, that to can take your foot off, but you REALLY have to work with it. Given the lack of experince you've implied, that a serious safety issue.

Do you know how to build a fire? Have you built a camp fire before? Are you or your friends boy scouts? It would really help. Becuase in all honesty, I'm not feeling any experience here.

Fire, firearms and axes are all very valuable tools, but in the hands of someone without any knowledge, all three of them can kill and maim very quickly. I would feel much more confident about this little exercise if I knew what degree of woodscraft you had in your background.

As for eating plants, don't. Not unless you KNOW how to identify them, and that's something that we generally don't discuss here becuase it is too easy to screw it up and would should have been an interesting night out turns into a medical emergency. You're out one night, being hungry won't kill you that quickly.

Doing something you've seen on TV, without doing serious research and practicing it under reasonable conditions first, is a good way win a Darwin Award. And they stopped paying the finders fee/bounty, so please, practice shelter building in your backyards first. That will get you through most one nighters.


Edited by ironraven (05/16/07 01:32 AM)
Edit Reason: didn't want to make the kid feel completely stupid
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When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#94757 - 05/16/07 01:39 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
1st - I agree with everyone else that if y'all insist on doing this project, you need to get a safety net under you first. That means that an experienced woodsman needs to be a part of your expedition.

2nd - You will find most of the answers to your questions at:
http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com

3rd - At least read and take a copy of the Boy Scout Manual with y'all.

4th - Leave a map of your location and a planned itenarary with a responsible person.

5th - Write up a detailed plan of how you are going to place your fire, your shelter, equipment needed to accomplish your goals, get your safe water supply, keep the critters out of your food-at night, what critters can be expected and how to deal with those who show up at your camp (lions, tigers, and bears-oh my), and what you will do to use your daylight hours wisely and productively.

Good Luck!! I wish I could go with you.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#94760 - 05/16/07 02:23 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: ironraven]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I had a .22 bolt action rifle and an axe when I was 12 yo, and I could easily start a fire with matches. I won't make any hypocritical judgments on those choices, just be careful.

As for edible plants, that is a difficult subject to teach over the internet. One of the better instructors on plantlife in Southern California is Christopher Nyerges. It takes a lot of time and education (time to hit the books) to know what you're looking at and what it's good for. Otherwise you only think you know and the next thing you're ill and not getting better. There's a DVD about a Solo Survival Skills where a very experienced survival instructor ate the wrong plant life (mushrooms IIRC) and ended up in his back-up teams tent sick as a dog – not cool.

My point and I think ironraven will agree, don't plan on eating wild plant life until you KNOW what you're eating, how to prepare it and that it contributes positively to your situation. Otherwise you could seriously hurt yourselves.

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#94761 - 05/16/07 03:25 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
RAS, I'm making my judgment not on their age, but on the general vibe of these posts, it makes me think that they don't have basic camping experience. I hope I'm wrong, but I've never seen someone survive assuming that the best case scenario was going to play out.

And yeah, I think I know the DVD in question, it used to be a VHS tape? There is only one kind of fungus that is safe to eat in the woods, and I won't mention it around newbies.

Ziggy, let me clarify. There are things out there that look like the top of a common, domestic carrot that can kill you very easily if you aren't treated, although you'll be curled up in a ball with stomach cramps during the process. Or goats rue, which looks like a domestic pea pod but which causes some really impressive hallucinations and paranoia that make people running screaming into the night in a blind panic. Or certain edibles that if you don't boil, change the water, and boil again will teach you a whole new meaning for "going for distance" as it comes back up.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#94763 - 05/16/07 03:28 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
Be_Prepared Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 530
Loc: Massachusetts
I think it's great that you're interested in finding out more about wilderness survival. Based on your notes, however, it does not sound like your band of friends is really ready for a self led expedition. I'm sure that there are organizations in Ontario that foster hiking, backpacking, camping, etc. Here in the Northeast US, I belong to a club called the AMC (Appalachian Mountain Club) that has several local chapters that organize guided trips with trained and experienced leaders. Trips like that allow you to get your feet wet with some experienced folks around to coach you.

In your neck of the woods, maybe check out information from the Ontario Trails Council. Their website has some interesting information. (Makes me want to go up there! The Voyageur Trail in NW Ontario sounds awesome.)

http://www.ontariotrails.on.ca/

It's not that we don't want you to experience what you're asking about... we just want you to do it safely, when you're ready, without reading about you in a SAR after action report.
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- Ron

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#94767 - 05/16/07 04:09 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Hi, Ziggy!

You're probably not going to have a .22 and an axe in a survival situation. I think they would look kind of odd in your video.

A lot of people just go out hiking and get into a survival situation. You might want to carry some small backpacks with some basic survival things, so you don't look like brainless yoyos with just shorts, t-shirts and tennis shoes (you know, the ones who are so stupid that they make the news when their bodies are found).

You could carry things like a couple of tarps, some nylon cord, some kind of small cook pot, something to hold water (even a couple of sturdy plastic bags), matches or a couple of lighters, maybe a wire saw, a signal mirror, first aid kit, etc.

Have a plan:

1) MAP & MESSAGE - Show how you were smart enough to leave a map and instructions on where you were going. It will make you look a lot brighter than most people who get lost and have no one knowing where to look for them.

2) SHELTER - What do you intend to do for shelter, the most important part of survival? Do you know how to set up a shelter with just a simple tarp and some cord? What if it rains?

3) WATER - What will be your source of water? Many/most places are contaminated with either farm pesticide/herbicide run-off, or things like bacteria and parasites that you can't see with the naked eye. What are the dangers of the water in your area? Once you know, you can take appropriate measures: a filter (for chemical contaminants), a pot for boiling (parasites and other 'bugs') or a chemical purifier (which you'll need to know how to use properly).

4) FIRE - Do any of you really know how to start a fire? You'd best practice a bit, or you might look kind of silly on film. Knowing how NOT to start a tree on fire is a good thing, too. DON'T take gasoline/petrol with you to start a fire. That immediately shows everyone that you don't know what you're doing, and it's dangerous, too. Take a magnifying glass and try to start a fire with it if the sun is shining... it's tricky. (I'll bet you can't do it!)

5) SIGNALING - If you were really in a survival situation, signaling would be important. You might want to learn how to use a simple signal mirror, just to show that you know what you're doing.

6) FIRST AID - A small first aid kit containing stuff you know how to use would be a good thing to have.

7) FOOD - Like others here have said, food isn't a big issue for just a few days. Eating the wrong wild foods can be deadly. I wouldn't do it without learning from a good wilderness instructor, myself. A guy in Oregon ate some Camas roots, which are fine if they are regular Camas, but he ate one Death Camas, and croaked before his friends could get him to a doctor. Toss some granola bars and beef jerky into your packs, and maybe some
bouillon cubes or those little packets from the Ramen type soups for a hot drink. If you're determined to eat wild food, use cattails -- they're easy to recognize, the roots can be cooked and eaten, the pollen can be scraped into hot water to make a kind of soup, and no part of it is poisonous.

Are you going to make your video kind of a How To Survive film?

Sue

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#94775 - 05/16/07 04:44 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA

Ziggy..you should sit down with a few of the local indians
up your way,Cree i think..your teachers could help arrange
something like that..forest rangers,loggers and fishing
and hunting outfitters would be a good source of information
and their storys could be worked into you film..



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#94781 - 05/16/07 06:36 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Frankly, three kids going out to spend a few nights in the woods with a .22, axe and matches is inviting trouble. Especially if you're most concerned about food (which you're not really going to need) but not even giving a thought to the real priorities such as water and shelter. Where are you going to find water? How are you supposed to boil it? In the rifle barrel? Preparing a good shelter looks easy on tv but nights get pretty cold outside. No sleeping bag plus a poorly constructed shelter and probably less than optimal fire equals catching a cold and a long miserable night under the stars.

The "fun" thing about real survival situations is that there is no guarantee you'll make it. Camping out close to home is good because you can reach safety quickly if anything goes wrong. But if someone gets a panic attack because it's his first night out on his own and starts seeing things in the dark the trip might take an ugly turn in no time. Throw in that axe and .22 and the potential for disaster rises exponentially.

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#94802 - 05/16/07 02:18 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Susan]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
You may want to do a trial run on some of the things discussed. IE, practice making the fire, gathering your dry tinder, getting that small pile started and then building it up to something you can use to boil the water necessary to make it safe.

One thing we discuss on this forum quite a bit is survival kits (do a search and you'll pull up lots of threads). These kits run from small pocket size Altoids tin kits to larger backpack size kits and are designed around the basic survival needs of fire, shelter, water and rescue/signaling. Before you start your survival trip you might want to make sure you each have a survival kit that addresses the Basic Needs of fire making (Bic lighter), shelter (large garbage bags) and something to carry, chemically treat or boil water. Short term survival doesn't need food, but the idea of a few energy/food bars (not candy) in a small kit is acceptible (my large kit has MREs). Other things that could be in a small kit are a fish hooks and line -- maybe you can catch a fish worthy of being dinner. Another thing to consider is that people in a survival situation want out. Rescue can be helped along with something like the signaling mirrors and whistles you also have in your kit. Many folks end up in a survival situation because they got lost; a compass to keep you walking in a straight line. Have you used a compass for woodland navigation?

Susan has a good point, few if any hikers who get lost are carrying an axe and .22 rifle, so while it may be fun and make chopping firewood easier, they aren't realistic. However, you should have a good folding knife on you or in your kit.

One thing you can build with that small knife and sticks you find is something like a figure 4 trap. Trapping your food is a skill that takes lots of practice: how to build the trap, where to set it up and what to do if you're fortunate to find something edible in the trap. Have you ever prepared a live rabbit for dinner?

In reading the earlier posts on this thread I get no feel for your knowledge and experience in any of the many survival skills. It's not something you just pick up by reading a few posts on the internet. Until you actually practice the skills by themselves you don't own them and until you own them, you aren't ready to make your survival video.

If this video is something that needs to be done soon, break it up into segments on the different needs a person in a survival situation may have. Start with a segment on the small kit you build to carry any time you are out hiking. Discuss what all the different components are for. Do a segment on building a shelter, then a segment on building a fire and a segment on using that fire to boil water from a stream because otherwise it's not safe to drink. These segments should build on previous segments and use the items in your kits. You might do a segment on using a map and compass for navigation (so you don't get lost in the first place). Have fun, but don't jump in with a three day camping trip that could be miserable.

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#94826 - 05/16/07 05:44 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Stu]
X-ray Dave Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 572
Loc: Nevada
Not a good idea for novices (actually a really bad idea). Maybe your project could involve getting the basic training and knoweldge to work up to a 3 day survival scenario. Getting prepared for something like that doesn't happen overnight. You "might" want to start with a little hiking, camping and backpacking to gain expierance and check out gear.
Eventually, if you work up to a 3 day survival project, having an expieranced observer and safety procedures in place should be included in the plan.

Dave

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#94834 - 05/16/07 07:45 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: ]
nouseforaname Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 76
if you're looking for some type of validation or "nod" from this community, i think at this point you should realize that you will not be getting it. everyone has given you solid, potentially life-saving advice and you have yet to respond that any of it has penetrated into your cerebral cortex. you're putting yourself at risk by attempting what you say you wanna do...if the worst should happen, God forbid, make sure you tell your family the URL of this website so they can't blame ETS.


both les stroud and bear grils have back-up plans and ways to extricate themselves should things get hairy.


with the advent of modern video editing software you can easily create the impression of 3 days of a survival situation. no need to be reckless.
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"It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known" - A Tale of Two Cities - Charles Dickens

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#94837 - 05/16/07 08:25 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: NightHiker]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Quote:
The more I think about this thread, the more of a Blair Witch vibe I get.


Funny, that was my first thought, too. Though it was just a movie it actually demonstrated very well how the average urban dweller tends to react when caught by something unexpected outdoors. Face it, most people today are totally unused to the wilderness. Lack of any outdoor skills, false confidence in their own abilities, fear of the unknown, it all adds up so quickly. If you look at the Blair Witch Project the situation was pretty much bizzare. There was not even any situation to speak of, nothing directly hostile in the environment. Those kids were not facing any serious challenges nor were their lives ever in danger. Yet they were defeated by their own imagination and eventually took entirely pointless steps that could have resulted in a tragedy. It took just one person to break down mentally and the entire group collapsed.

Not to rant too much but just one more point. I find it interesting how people with little outdoor experience fail to make a proper list of priorities. Food is always on top. So everyone assumes bringing a rifle will do the trick. Unfortunately, nobody seems to think ahead. It takes skill (and lots of time) to hunt successfully. Takes more skill to skin an animal and prepare the meat. Ray Mears does it with a sharp flint on TV though, sure looks easy. Then of course dragging the carcass to the camp sounds like a terrific idea, only it's going to invite predators from all over (but that's so easy to forget). So you might well wake up in the middle of the night with a bear or cougar having a feast by your side (hope it won't pick you for dessert). Sad to see common sense so lacking these days. PPPPPP... smile

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#94838 - 05/16/07 08:38 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
asfried1 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 31
I've read this thread and I have a suggestion. Ziggy, why don't you all just go backpacking? Take a class at the local outdoors store, get some appropriate equipment and just enjoy the outdoors. Thats plenty challenging enough for some folks who "don't know that much about the wilderness or the forest in general." You will find a lot of support for that endeavor in this forum and lots of ideas for improving your safety and comfort. Just a thought.

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#94896 - 05/17/07 07:35 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Hi, Ziggy.

I know a little about Cdn. shield and boreal forest country, though I don't pretend to be an expert. My primary experience is in the foothills and mountains of Alberta, which share similar features.

I think you have laid out an interesting project for yourself. (I've been on a few film sets myself, including -30 C on the ice of a Northern lake with a brisk wind -- now that's fresh.) If you do it right, you'll have a remarkable and memorable experience. If you do it wrong, as others have warned, you'll have a big mess.

I guess you've set yourself a pretty large psychological challenge as well. In fact, that's probably the biggest part of it. Otherwise, the bottom line (for any three-day tour) is: dress warmly, keep dry, boil your water, eat a bag of granola or GORP (good old raisins and peanuts), and don't chop any arteries.

And congratulations: you've done the right thing by admitting that "I don't know anything." That's the first step in acquiring meaningful knowledge. A lot of people try to fake their way through, macho style, and get into deep trouble as a result. The only way to "know it" is to "do it" -- and a big part of that is "doing" your homework.

You have a lot a research ahead of you. Don't skimp on it.

First, hit a good library. There are almost certainly books on survival techniques and local edible plants. Read them closely, and take them with you.

Next, pick up the phone and talk to forest rangers or park rangers that operate in the same general area. They can steer you toward an appropriate location, away from obvious dangers, and give you a rundown on active wildlife in the area. Since they'll be the first ones called out for search and rescue, you can bet they'll make every effort to help you avoid trouble.

For what it's worth, here's how I would set things up:
- Set up a nice, comfy base camp within sight of your vehicles ... tents with no-see-um netting, sleeping bags, clean water, spare clothing. Have food, but keep it in your vehicles. Keep your camp meticulously clean of any food-like smells to avoid wildlife surprises.
- Make sure somebody knows where you are and when you will be back. If cell phone coverage is available, make sure you have one.
- Set up your "survival camp/ film set" no more than an hours' walk from base camp (I think you're doing that already).
- Don't set up in a high-risk forest-fire zone. Take a spade along, and build your fire in a location where it can't possibly spread.
- If you can convince someone with experience to come along and hang out off camera, do it. You won't regret it.
- I suspect you'll find more "easy" food in and around water than anywhere else. Roasted cattail roots anyone?
- Don't eat anything unless you're triple-sure it's safe. This is not the place to play to the camera. Avoid mushrooms.

Last, be prepared for the most relentless, bloodthirsty predator in the area (neither bear, cougar, nor wolf): the black fly. Without DEET and headnets (and even with) they will make you intensely miserable, and possibly swollen/sick with their anticoagulant venom. Heed the old song: "... and the black fly, the little black fly, always the black fly, no matter where you go ... I'll die with the black fly a-pickin' my bones, in old Ontar-io-i-o, in old On-tar-i-o..."

I hope things go well. Be safe first and foremost.

Let us know how it goes.

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#94923 - 05/17/07 03:05 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: dougwalkabout]
91gdub Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 172
Loc: South Jersey (the 51st state)
Ziggy just some words of advice from an "old timer"

1. Don't take a rifle, you're inviting trouble
2. An axe can be very dangerous. If you're going for 1 night you won't need an axe. Use deadfall for fire and shelter.
3. WATER, WATER, WATER. Take lots of water

I'm a pretty experienced camper and one more than 1 occasion I've done survival training. Spent more than 1 weekend in the woods as a teenager with only 3 matches, a pocketknife and the clothes on my back. Lived to tell about it.

Try a "mild" weekend of backpacking first. Carry everything in that you think you'll need including a) water b) food c) supplies. Make sure you have a first-aid kit (a good well stocked one) and have some knowledge of what do do with it. Take a tarp for making shelter and plenty of rope/line with you. Depending on the weather take at least a couple of blankets or a sleeping bag. Take a poncho or other rain gear. Make sure you have firestarting material and know how to use it, practice first.

Don't think you can "Rambo" your way around the woods.

Be safe, be smart.


Edited by 91gdub (05/17/07 03:05 PM)
_________________________
Bill Houston

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#94948 - 05/17/07 06:09 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
I definitely agree with RAS on this one.

I remember my first camping trip all too well, a friend and I brought in several 2-liter bottles of water, food, tent, axe, rifle, sleeping bags, etc... and this was only for a 1 night trip about 3 miles from my home.

Growing up "in the woods" so to speak, I was very comfortable using an axe or a rifle. The rifle was more of a backup in case of rabid animals. To an untrained person, however, a rifle can be a liability as you would often try to shoot an agressive animal as opposed to trying to avoid it.

Back to my main point, you want equipment with you. No one should knowingly put themselves in harms way without proper survival surplies. The whole point of Doug's site is to be prepared. If you carry even the most basic of survival equipment with you, you stand a greater chance of surviving if things go wrong. With that knowledge, why would anyone venture into the woods with almost nothing in the way of gear?

If you want to experiment with survival skills, do so, but only in a safe manner. As RAS suggested, try making a figure 4 trap, see if you can catch supper. Go fishing with just line and hooks. Try setting snares. And, if you catch something, see how difficult it really can be to skin and prepare. Try to start a fire using flint and tinder you find in the woods. But always have backup!

Make sure you have adequate fire starting tools / matches / lighters. As an Assistant Scoutmaster for the Boy Scouts, I'm often amazed at the inability of some scouts to start and build a proper fire. This is a skill that is crucial for any sort of outdoors experience.

Make sure to carry a proper knife and multitool. Have enough water with you, but carry a way to treat / boil water if you need to, or to show how it's done. Bring along food, properly sealed. Nothing worse than running into a bear that has been attracted by the scent of food left lying around. (Trust me, I've seen this in a boy scout camp! Luckily the scout was not hurt too badly!)

As the scout motto says, "Be prepared!"

And for God's sake, please let people know exactly where you will be, how long you will be away, and when to notify SAR if you don't return. You state you will only be 1 km away? Bring proper communication equipment. Even commercial talk-abouts (walkie talkies) should work for that short range. But test for that distance before relying on it.

To sum it up, bring plenty and enough equipment to surive for longer than you plan on being there, just in case. You don't have to include it in any shots. Don't be silly and try to eat plants you are not sure about. As many have said in this forum, food is not critical, but water is!

Come back safe!
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#95024 - 05/18/07 06:48 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Tom_L]
X-ray Dave Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 572
Loc: Nevada
You don't know what you don't know. If you did, you wouldn't have asked the question to start with.

Dave

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#95032 - 05/18/07 10:15 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: X-ray Dave]
JRR Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 37
3 days is not survival, it is a camping trip. Unless you are treading water at sea, or are somewhere where hypothermia is a concern, 3 days is nothing.


Edited by JRR (05/18/07 10:15 PM)

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#95034 - 05/18/07 11:36 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
IMO, the 3 day camping trip isn't really the issue, making a "survival" video is the issue. Not being subject matter experts, making a survival video as a school project could be tough -- UNLESS, the video is about the process of actually learning survival techniques. Then if you fail to get a fire going using spark based techniques, you're demonstrating that it isn't as easy as some survival experts make it out to be on TeeVee. Talk about why it didn't work: not enough tinder, not enough spark, tinder is too wet to take a spark. When you do get a spark to catch, wave your arms like Tom Hanks on Castaway.

Start the clock and make that shelter from the sticks and brush in the area and when it's finished stop the clock (time lapse photography to show the shelter at various stages). It takes considerable time and energy.

Make some traps and put them out. Demonstrate how the traps work (Figure 4, deadfall, et al)

If you catch anything worthy of dinner you can consider yourselves very successful. Odds are every time you take the camera to check your traps they'll be empty.

You get the idea, document on video your attempts at learning the techniques, success's and more importantly the failures. It's all about the process.

Good luck.

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#95043 - 05/19/07 03:37 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.
Quote:

Feb 8th 2007
From The Economist print edition

TO THE alarm of environmentalists and park managers alike, interest in the great outdoors seems to be tailing off among young Americans. The country's extensive system of national parks includes some of the most photographed and best preserved landscapes on earth—like Yosemite Valley in California, the crenellated Teton Range in Wyoming, Old Faithful geyser in Yellowstone National Park or the white edifice of Mount Rainier in Washington state. But attendance at the parks is falling.…


I begin my post with the above quote with much trepidation. I would hate to contradict the wise counsel already given about lack of knowledge, proper equipment, seeking advice, etc., etc. Most of the advice given has been sound and well thought out, my only concern is that much of it seems slanted towards a, "risk management", or fear of future liability angle. It's true that in this day and age of multi-million dollar lawsuits, only a fool would knowingly place him/herself in the position of offering bad survival advice to someone while in a paid/professional setting but let's keep things in perspective here, this is a free public internet forum by and for enthusiast's and amateurs.

I'm not espousing that we fail to discourage unsafe behaviors, but let's balance it with encouragement and enthusiastic support for the young people (or not so young), who are showing an interest in the outdoors and survival concepts.

Ziggy and Company, my advice? Do it!! Tell a responsible adult where you will be, bring the proper equipment, plan out your adventure on paper and have a great time!


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#95045 - 05/19/07 04:07 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
I'm all for starting people with a tent in a state forest. At least so you can get used to what it feels like to not have hard walls and roof and the sounds of the night. Although I won't mock anyone who is spooked by raccoon nookie- that sounds like someone being murdered and the weapon of choice is a cat being swung by it's tail. *shivers*

Then move onto a tarp and a hammock or a bivy. Then get out of the campground. And THEN try sleeping in a primitive shelter.

My concern was and is a survival exercise with what sounds like no training, minimal experience, and having a camera rolling. My one hope is that if they do do this, they've been watching Les and not that fool with the other show.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#95048 - 05/19/07 04:31 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: ironraven]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

If Ziggy asked: "For my first outdoor experience, should I stay in a tent at a state park, or start right off with a 3 day survival trek in the Canadian wilderness?" My advice would mimic yours, but I don't think that's his question.

The question I pose to you and others, Ironraven is: If you had the authority to allow or forbid Ziggy's trip, but ONLY with the understanding that if allowed it is on his terms without modification and if forbidden there is a good chance Ziggy will move on to some other hobby (X-Box?), do you say go or stay?






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#95051 - 05/19/07 05:24 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Inability to learn from the mistakes and experiences of others is not a survival trait. Neither is over estimating your abilities, particularly when all you possess is theoretical knowledge in very limited quantities. Again, I hope I'm reading the vibe of his posts wrong, but when you ask about predators you don't know the area- hungry things that go bump in the night are the first things that most people ask about, a sign that humans are evolved from lunch. Not a the place for your first night out.

To answer "stay" or "go", I'd have to know him. If he's a pain in my butt, "go". The lesson, assuming he survives, will be learned and his genes might someday prove worthy of continuing. If he's not a pain in the butt, I'd say "stay until you learn". Or "go, but you'll have a shadow the entire way".

Or are you honestly suggesting that letting someone who sounds like he has no clue out on his own with an axe, a firearm, a camera and a couple buddies who all want to look cool on film isn't a bad idea? I would counter your question with this one: "Would you rather he went out without practical knowledge as to his environment and equipment to emulate something he's seen on television, or would you rather he had some idea of what he was doing based on practicing in his backyard and doing some research?"

Ethically, I can't toss a kid who can't swim but has seen plenty of surfer movies into the deep end of a swimming pool. I might want to, becuase I generally don't like teenagers, but I can't do it. Sure, if he doesn't panic and holds his breath, even if he sinks he can walk until his head out of the water. But I can't take that risk with a clear concious.

Heck, if I knew Ziggy had a decent manual that he'd read a few times I'd feel better about what has been proposed.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#95052 - 05/19/07 06:04 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: ironraven]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

I don't think you're reading the vibe of his posts wrong at all. I think Ziggy was hoping to get a simple 1,2,3 list of do's & dont's that he could print out, throw into his back-pack along with his Red Bull & powerbars, then head out to the great outdoors. In fact, I'll bet Ziggy punched, "survival skills" into Google and ETS came up on the first screen (try it...4th entry down for me).

To answer your question, of course I would rather he had practice and experience in a somewhat controlled environment first, but again I don't think Ziggy is interested in that.

Thinking back to my first few hiking/camping/outdoor experiences, I was ill prepared, poorly provisioned and probably wearing a cheap pair of sneakers bought out of a metal bin from the supermarket (remember those?). I made mistakes, went hungry & thirsty, got blisters on top of blisters and had a ball doing it!

I would hate to learn that Ziggy, or anyone else for that matter, went away from ETS with the impression that unless you can go toe to toe with Les Stroud, you'd better just stay home and leave the outdoor stuff to the professionals.


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#95065 - 05/19/07 02:01 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I agree, they should do it. My only concern about the rifle is that it may suffer neglect if it rains. The video they produce may come off as a don't try this at home, look at all the mistakes we made, this is harder than it looks on TV kind of video, but at least they'll be out there doing it.

I also agree that Ziggy was looking for some easy answers to some questions that require an investment of education and time in the field to learn, but I hope he goes for it. Just don't eat any mushrooms.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#95127 - 05/20/07 11:51 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
Themalemutekid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 351
Loc: New Jersey
I think Ziggy got scared off the forums... but hey, he asked for our help right?
_________________________
....he felt the prompting of his heritage, the desire to possess, the wild danger-love, the thrill of battle, the power to conquer or to die. Jack London

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#95129 - 05/21/07 12:14 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Themalemutekid]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Yeah, what's with that? wink

The whole business of eating wild food is a great thing to learn, but its fraught with the reality that if you misidentify a plant it just might kill you.

Some of the guys jumped on the .22 rifle and axe issue a little much but that should have been a no big deal from Ziggy's POV. If I want to take a rifle and axe with me on an overnighter, I'm not even going to leave it behind because some guy on the internet thinks I might hurt myself.

What else? Oh, yeah, the idea that a kid with a video camera but zero survival skills is going to make a survival video could be really interesting. If it's done with the right attitude (I've never done this before but this is what the book says to do) it could be educational for both the cast and the audience. Then again, it could be a total waste of time and simply document three guys being miserable on an overnight.

Since Ziggy never came back, we'll never know.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#95133 - 05/21/07 12:59 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Or he's lost right now, wondering why he didn't listen to the advice posted. Probably eating bullets and thinking "I should have brought something else."

I kind of hope, if he does this project, it's on YouTube or something. I need a good laugh.

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#95153 - 05/21/07 01:00 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Ziggy]
jdobbs2001 Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 11
My advice, do not do it. Looks like you are lacking the basic skills right now and I would recommend you spend time learning those basics first. (Classes etc.)

At your age you might think "It could not happen to me" but things can happen, and those shows like Survivor are pretty well planned out ahead of time and they have lots of responders,camera folks,doctors etc.. right behind those cameras just to make sure nothing goes wrong.


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#95416 - 05/24/07 12:08 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: MDinana]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Quote:
Or he's lost right now,


Or they havn't found the body yet. frown

Crass I know but still a possiblilty (and I'm feeling grumpy and dark after my shift today).

I hope it's just a case of him being mad at us and just doesn't want to play with us right now as opposed to the more tragic option.

I hope he comes back. There's a lot he can learn from y'all.

Ziggy, If you're lurking don't feel bad.

Just look at the butt chewing I got in the VT related posts.

And I'm still here. smile










_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#95444 - 05/24/07 03:17 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Russ]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
" Then again, it could be a total waste of time and simply document three guys being miserable on an overnight."

THAT could be more instructive than you might first think! grin

Sue

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#95483 - 05/24/07 04:07 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Susan]
Angel Offline
Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 192
I really don't think that 1k into the wilderness is all that dangerous. At night if you are only 1k from civilization, you can still hear cars. Talking to someone like they've never been outside may have been more of an insult than a help. Even if they don't find food for 3 days, chances are they wont die from starvation. I don't think it could be considered survival unless you have a chance to get good and hungry. Sounds like a fun camping trip to me and I think they should do it. My only suggestions would be to research the area and take water.

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#95492 - 05/24/07 05:01 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Angel]
JIM Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 1032
Loc: The Netherlands
Quote:
Sounds like a fun camping trip to me


He was talking about Survival in the wilderness. As long as they make it a camping trip, 'they should be fine. Then they can carry sleeping-bags, tents, fuel,food, etc. But if you go into the wilderness (even 1k) without those things, and no-almost no knowlegde of the wilderness and a inaccurate picture of what survival is, then you're just asking for trouble...

What's the nearest SAR-team in Northwest Ontario?? crazy whistle
_________________________
''It's time for Plan B...'' ''We have a Plan B?'' ''No, but it's time for one.'' -Stargate SG-1

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#95505 - 05/24/07 06:58 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: JIM]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

It looks like SAR won't be needed after all...it seems Ziggy never made it past his back yard.




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#95531 - 05/25/07 01:17 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I think that one word sums up Ziggy in this case...troll...
_________________________
OBG

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#95637 - 05/26/07 12:34 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: OldBaldGuy]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Quote:
I think that one word sums up Ziggy in this case...troll...



That's what my wife said, and she's always right. cool

Now I feel dirty and used. blush

I wonder if y'all will still respect me in the morning.





_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#95704 - 05/26/07 08:02 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: nouseforaname]
red Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 175
I can't believe how many kids have seen Man vs. Wild and actually think they can/should do such nonsense. I've written the Discovery Channel of the dangers of that show. Les is legit but I think Ziggy is leaning towards the Bear Grylls paradigm, which IMHO is suicide.
_________________________
When the SHTF, no one comes out of it smelling pretty.

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#102362 - 08/12/07 04:23 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: samhain]
Spiritwalker Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 104
Originally Posted By: samhain

Quote:
I think that one word sums up Ziggy in this case...troll...



That's what my wife said, and she's always right. cool

Now I feel dirty and used. blush

I wonder if y'all will still respect me in the morning.







In the morning?!? I don't respect you now!


Sorry, I just had to say it. lol

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#102383 - 08/12/07 09:52 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: Spiritwalker]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Cute laugh


I had forgotten about ol'ziggy.

Had his fun and off trolling somewhere else.

_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#102390 - 08/12/07 10:40 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: MDinana]
JRR Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Or he's lost right now, wondering why he didn't listen to the advice posted. Probably eating bullets and thinking "I should have brought something else."


Or he and his buddies are sitting around a campfire with a big fat jackrabbit or a couple of quail roasting over coals.

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#102579 - 08/14/07 09:18 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: JRR]
Spiritwalker Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 104
...or he's on the supply side of the food chain...

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#102590 - 08/14/07 11:25 PM Re: Survival Help [Re: samhain]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

You guys are probably right about Ziggy being a troll, but I think the discussion brought up some good points that might help other people who are thinking about trying something like this in the future.

Ziggy, if you're for real and lurking out there somewhere, how'd it go? Please let us know, we promise we won't bite this time!






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#102734 - 08/16/07 07:03 AM Re: Survival Help [Re: Lasd02]
Spiritwalker Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 104
I thought it was a good idea but found the thread much too late.

If Ziggy was serious about doing the video, it could have been quite something to watch how a young person learns about survival skills, what research they did, interviews with whoever they consulted, how they evaluated and prioritized their basic needs and then the trip to the woods to put it all into practice.

I suspect however, it was just a "Hey! Let's make a survivorman video!" idea with no intention of doing any real research on the subject.

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