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#93426 - 05/03/07 03:01 AM STUPID!!! [Re: Susan]
JCWohlschlag Offline
Some guy who wandered inÖ
Old Hand

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 724
Loc: Dallas, Pennsylvania, United S...
I was going to reply to this thread with a long rant, but Susan already said pretty much everything for me. There should be a point at which one of the guides says, ďOkay, heís at the point of no return.Ē (And that point should preferably be before death.) Last I checked, people do not spontaneously recover from dehydration hallucinations.

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#93431 - 05/03/07 03:23 AM Re: STUPID!!! [Re: JCWohlschlag]
Be_Prepared Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 530
Loc: Massachusetts
I always felt like when I signed something acknowleding that I'm doing something dangerous, possibly fatal, that I was essentially signing a CYA note for the guide. I expect them to do their best, using prudent judgement, and understand that there are some things beyond their control. However, I wasn't signing something that said, "and when I get in a really bad situation, and I'm going to die, please don't even try to help me"

I don't think disclaimers are meant to create a negligent attitude among the guides, they still should attempt to run a safe adventure, it just covers them if TSHTF and someone doesn't make it back even with reasonable efforts on their part.

We're going rafting in a couple weeks, and some stretches are going to be Class V rapids. We'll all sign the "I could die" waiver, but, we'd all expect our guides to try to get us back in the raft if we get tossed. I don't picture them just watching us float down through the rapids saying "well, he came here for the adventure, we told him he might die"

Pathetic situation. Very poor risk management. Managing risk is one of the biggest things that you learn when you take any sort of outdoor leadership training. Duh.
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- Ron

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#93480 - 05/03/07 04:24 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: ]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Bentirran,
There is no doubt that BOSS messed up big time and was responsible for the students death. But I am not sure that this type of course has no place.

I think we may have slightly different philosophies about gearing up; me a bit on the light side and you on the heavier end of the scale. This type of survival course has always appealled to me for many reasons including a desire to learn the everyday knowledge and skills our ancestors used and we have since lost.

Learning primitive skills will surely make one's survival abilities stronger and learning to make do with little or no gear might be very useful in a real SHTF situation. That said this type of course should be an advanced course and the instructors should have had back-up emergency gear and plans for when and if something goes wrong. Heck they should have had some way to "pull the plug" and get a medivac to airlift the sick student out. The school's primitive philosophy should not be so written in stone as to kill or endanger the students.


I just went and re-read the story. The most disturbing thing is that they should have given him the emergency water they were carrying. Their unwillingness to let the student fail caused them to fail as trip leaders.



Edited by billym (05/03/07 04:30 PM)

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#93485 - 05/03/07 04:54 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: billym]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Primitive skills are great, Iím all for it. But that has nothing to do with going without water for 10 hours in 100 degree temperatures. Teach them how to carry water in an animal skin, not to just do without it.

From what I have read, I'd say that BOSS teaches one very little about survival. BOSS teaches you how to push your limits, "find yourself", cope with adversity, flirt with death and commune with mutha' nature.

They also teach you that staying hydrated is not important. Thatís not survival.
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#93497 - 05/03/07 05:57 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: Susan]
Craig_phx Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 715
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Can you imagine paying someone over $3,000 to put up with that crap?

He didn't get the "I survived" t-shirt.
_________________________
Thermo-regulate, hydrate and communicate.

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#93502 - 05/03/07 06:13 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: thseng]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Originally Posted By: thseng
Primitive skills are great, Iím all for it. But that has nothing to do with going without water for 10 hours in 100 degree temperatures. Teach them how to carry water in an animal skin, not to just do without it.

From what I have read, I'd say that BOSS teaches one very little about survival. BOSS teaches you how to push your limits, "find yourself", cope with adversity, flirt with death and commune with mutha' nature.

They also teach you that staying hydrated is not important. Thatís not survival.


I agree; if this is what they are teaching then they are going to get more folks killed either on the course itself or afterwards when a student who passes the course takes their poor training out on their own.

Yes staying hydrated is one of the very most important skill to learn. The fact that they were teaching almost the opposite makes them very irresponsible.


Just a side note to another comment regarding Outward Bound; they also lost a student in the desert that same week.

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#93511 - 05/03/07 06:54 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: billym]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Originally Posted By: billym
Just a side note to another comment regarding Outward Bound; they also lost a student in the desert that same week.

IIRC, it was a heat/dehydration related death also. She was seperated from the group and died with water still in her bottle...
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#93525 - 05/03/07 08:03 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: thseng]
horizonseeker Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 84
some thoughts:

1) assuming this business strategy is still ongoing: how about TELLing the students that emergency ration and water are available, but if you drink, you fail and no refunds

2) regarding the last sentence, the student (former) mentioned fear of desert, really, it should be fear of irresponsible and simply stupid guides

3) i don't think boss has mentioned any actions taken against the guides in this case

4) note to self: if hiking partner mentions he's a graduate/guide of BOSS, stay the hell away from that guy.

5) really don't think that liability waiver is going to stand up in court.


Edited by horizonseeker (05/03/07 08:04 PM)

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#93526 - 05/03/07 08:15 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: NightHiker]
OddArne Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 17

If someone really wnats to run classes like these, I think basic medical training should be mandatory. Sounds like pretty obvious signs. If they weren`t completely sure, there are simple ways to test how far it`s gone.

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#93529 - 05/03/07 08:55 PM Re: Interesting read on survival school fatality [Re: OddArne]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Then basic rules for desert survival are:
1) Carry as much water as you can comfortably carry. Then add some more.
2) Cover up. That means broad brimmed hat, long trousers, long sleeved shirt, sunblock and sun glasses.
3) GET OUT OF THE SUN!!! Even the locals don't go out in the mid-day sun. Take a hint.....
4) If some moron says that you ain't allowed this or that, walk away from him. Map, compass, watch, signal mirror, knife, whistle etc arn't luxurys. They are basic life support. If he gets persistant, take it that he's going to try to hurt you. So then it's him or you. So do as your spirit bids...
5) Remember that "Liability Wavier" means: We Can Do Anything We Want To You.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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