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#91560 - 04/18/07 06:20 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: duckear]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
..."can't legally carry"... !

What does that mean? That means nothing. Did it stop the VT? killer?

DON'T ASK - DON'T TELL - That policy has a basis in federal policy.

IF IF IF IF - you are forced to defend your life, you may be suspended! Wow - what a choice!



_________________________
Cliff Harrison
PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
N43.9668 W116.1888

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#91567 - 04/18/07 07:27 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: Dave568]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
It is a good plan to look at the possiblities, but I wouldn't suggest worrying about it.

I know that the members of my crew that are still in school were looking at options yesterday as a "what if" or roleplaying situation. I was at the same campus when Columbine happened, and those of us of like minds did the same thing then, to. I do the same thing when I've changed jobs, spend more than a few hours at a jobsite, stay in a hotel room, or go out to eat.

Know what you have, know how to use it in any given situation. Improvise, modify, devise, adapt, or fail. Same as any survival situation.

And now back to work, I've gooffed off too much.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#91568 - 04/18/07 07:30 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: Rio]
weldon Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 64
On the paracord/rappelling idea... I'd like to nip this in the bud. Paracord has a 550lb break strength, for a static load. Rappelling on it would create loads well in excess of 550lbs, dropping you such that you probably would suffer greater injuries than broken legs. If you are wanting to rappel, please visit a climbing shop and get some light climbing rope. Or at least some 8mm accessory cord. That would *probably* be strong enough to prevent breaking, is still relatively light and compact and could be packed. Also, look at getting an ATC or Figure 8 or some other decending device and wear a belt along the lines of a wilderness belt from www.thewilderness.com. In the stress of a situation like that hanging onto the rope with your hands would not be the best idea.

Several years ago, I sat in a lecture from a Fire Chief from a local city here. It was geared towards fire safety and what to do when traveling or living in an apt. in case of a fire. He made the point that you are better off staying in the room you are in and covering yourself with mattresses and bedding than trying to climb down sheets that are tied together. Most people underestimate how tough it is to hang onto those things, or being in a hurry they don't tie the knots well enough not to slip. I would think the same kind of stress would be found in this kind of situation.

As mentioned before test out your solution somewhere safe, and then find a building to try exiting from... even if it's the second floor of your home.

Finally, if you are contemplating doing this... it might be worthwile to find a climbing club in your area and at least learn the basics about rappelling.


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#91570 - 04/18/07 07:42 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: weldon]
Dave568 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/24/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: weldon
On the paracord/rappelling idea... I'd like to nip this in the bud. Paracord has a 550lb break strength, for a static load. Rappelling on it would create loads well in excess of 550lbs, dropping you such that you probably would suffer greater injuries than broken legs. If you are wanting to rappel, please visit a climbing shop and get some light climbing rope. Or at least some 8mm accessory cord. That would *probably* be strong enough to prevent breaking, is still relatively light and compact and could be packed. Also, look at getting an ATC or Figure 8 or some other decending device and wear a belt along the lines of a wilderness belt from www.thewilderness.com. In the stress of a situation like that hanging onto the rope with your hands would not be the best idea.

Several years ago, I sat in a lecture from a Fire Chief from a local city here. It was geared towards fire safety and what to do when traveling or living in an apt. in case of a fire. He made the point that you are better off staying in the room you are in and covering yourself with mattresses and bedding than trying to climb down sheets that are tied together. Most people underestimate how tough it is to hang onto those things, or being in a hurry they don't tie the knots well enough not to slip. I would think the same kind of stress would be found in this kind of situation.

As mentioned before test out your solution somewhere safe, and then find a building to try exiting from... even if it's the second floor of your home.

Finally, if you are contemplating doing this... it might be worthwile to find a climbing club in your area and at least learn the basics about rappelling.



I have actually been climbing for many years now, both indoors on rock walls and outdoors on real rocks. I know how to rappel, tie the proper knots, descend properly, etc. That is not an issue for me at least. I also agree that paracord would not make the best climbing rope, but I'm also not worried enough about this sort of event to want to carry around a real climbing rope. In a pinch, paracord would work. I have tried it before. They key is simply to go slow and do not put more of a load on the rope than it can handle. If you slip and start to fall, paracord will not save you, it will break. You need to know the abilities and the limitations of your equipment before you use it.

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#91577 - 04/18/07 08:37 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: weldon]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Originally Posted By: weldon
On the paracord/rappelling idea... I'd like to nip this in the bud. Paracord has a 550lb break strength, for a static load. Rappelling on it would create loads well in excess of 550lbs, dropping you such that you probably would suffer greater injuries than broken legs. If you are wanting to rappel, please visit a climbing shop and get some light climbing rope. Or at least some 8mm accessory cord. That would *probably* be strong enough to prevent breaking, is still relatively light and compact and could be packed. Also, look at getting an ATC or Figure 8 or some other decending device and wear a belt along the lines of a wilderness belt from www.thewilderness.com. In the stress of a situation like that hanging onto the rope with your hands would not be the best idea.

Several years ago, I sat in a lecture from a Fire Chief from
Finally, if you are contemplating doing this... it might be worthwile to find a climbing club in your area and at least learn the basics about rappelling.



Thanks for mentioning this. I doubt it is even possible to rap off 550; the thinnest I have ever heard of being used for rappelling is 5MM and it was by an elite high altitude solo aplinist.

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#91578 - 04/18/07 08:47 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: Dave568]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Originally Posted By: Dave568
Originally Posted By: weldon
On the paracord/rappelling idea... I'd like to nip this in the bud. Paracord has a 550lb break strength, for a static load. Rappelling on it would create loads well in excess of 550lbs, dropping you such that you probably would suffer greater injuries than broken legs. If you are wanting to rappel, please visit a climbing shop and get some light climbing rope. Or at least some 8mm accessory cord. That would *probably* be strong enough to prevent breaking, is still relatively light and compact and could be packed. Also, look at getting an ATC or Figure 8 or some other decending device and wear a belt along the lines of a wilderness belt from www.thewilderness.com. In the stress of a situation like that hanging onto the rope with your hands would not be the best idea.

Several years ago, I sat in a lecture from a Fire Chief from a local city here. It was geared towards fire safety and what to do when traveling or living in an apt. in case of a fire. He made the point that you are better off staying in the room you are in and covering yourself with mattresses and bedding than trying to climb down sheets that are tied together. Most people underestimate how tough it is to hang onto those things, or being in a hurry they don't tie the knots well enough not to slip. I would think the same kind of stress would be found in this kind of situation.

As mentioned before test out your solution somewhere safe, and then find a building to try exiting from... even if it's the second floor of your home.

Finally, if you are contemplating doing this... it might be worthwile to find a climbing club in your area and at least learn the basics about rappelling.



I have actually been climbing for many years now, both indoors on rock walls and outdoors on real rocks. I know how to rappel, tie the proper knots, descend properly, etc. That is not an issue for me at least. I also agree that paracord would not make the best climbing rope, but I'm also not worried enough about this sort of event to want to carry around a real climbing rope. In a pinch, paracord would work. I have tried it before. They key is simply to go slow and do not put more of a load on the rope than it can handle. If you slip and start to fall, paracord will not save you, it will break. You need to know the abilities and the limitations of your equipment before you use it.


If you are already a climber you may be able to simply downclimb the outside of the building. I would always rather climb (up or down) than rappell especially if I were improvising gear.

I do not think 550 would work. Try tying a length of 550 to a rafter or chin-up bar; see if you can hang from it for any length of time. The line is too thin to hold on to; even if you used some sort of friction device like an ATC you would not be able to hold you weight with that thin a rope.

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#91579 - 04/18/07 08:54 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: billym]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1781
I'm also a student, In mine opinion is first to look at the risk. A risk = Chance X effect. Looking at the effect, well it's pretty big. But the chance is very very low. So the risk is in mine opinion very acceptable.

I tottaly disagrea with ponder, carring a firearm for such a low risk, while risking a massive penalty just isn't worth it. It's not just suspension you get, these days. It will ruin you, when they do discover your carring one. The chance on that is a lot higher!
_________________________


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#91580 - 04/18/07 09:02 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: billym]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Originally Posted By: billym
I doubt it is even possible to rap off 550; the thinnest I have ever heard of being used for rappelling is 5MM and it was by an elite high altitude solo aplinist.


No reason why you can't just take a few extra turns around your friction device, beit a figure 8, carabiner or whatever. Just be aware that you'll need extra friction, its strength is marginal, and you're using it for something its not intended for.

On the other hand, a rappel is not something to be set up in a hurry. Ask me about the time I rappelled right off the end of my rope.


Edited by thseng (04/18/07 09:02 PM)
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#91582 - 04/18/07 09:21 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: thseng]
billym Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 616
Loc: Oakland, California
Sure you could wrap it a few more times but you will still have problems holding onto the 550 once it is weighted.
The thinnest line I have rappelled was 7mm and it was scetchy.
Why not go try it right now? I bet you will find it virtually impossible.


"On the other hand, a rappel is not something to be set up in a hurry. Ask me about the time I rappelled right off the end of my rope."

Not good. Ever heard of a backup?

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#91585 - 04/18/07 10:23 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: Tjin]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Chance of getting caught carrying a gun to school, well, it depends I suppose on how it is carried. It also depends on how stringent the school is in routine checks. If rapid deployment of the firearm is not the highest priority, then it can be fairly well transported in secret on your person, or in your school bags. I don't remember ever being searched on any campus, whether I was armed or not, so unless you are foolish and make it's presence known to others, or the school institutes regular and vigorous searches of personal effects, then I'd say the chances of being caught carrying a firearm to school are pretty low, and reasonable enough to warrant the risk.

What other choice do you have? To not carry is to remain a defenseless victim, no matter how minimal you think the threat may be. As was proven here, you can't rely on security to keep you safe, nor the police; even the justice system failed in this case. Unless you are willing to put a cop in every classroom and hallway, which is even less practical, there are no other options left.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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