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#91928 - 04/21/07 07:23 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: UTAlumnus]
silent_weapon Offline

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 38
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
After Columbine....a co-worker of mine came up with an online business plan for making such backpacks and briefcases that were bullet resistant. It never worked out...lack of funds (we are cops, what do you expect) but it was a good idea.

Don't forget that a couple of hardback text books and the backpack moved from your back to your chest would do a lot for stopping a 9mm round and will most certainly stop a .22 caliber round. Next time I go to the range I'll try to shoot some old college textbooks I have and see what kind of stopping power they have.

#91929 - 04/21/07 08:06 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: silent_weapon]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
I've heard of using old phone books to make an indoor range for .22 before. IIRC it takes three. Hard back books will do a little better. Means I'm well set between books, notebooks, etc. long as he's carrying a .22

Edited by UTAlumnus (04/21/07 08:07 PM)

#91948 - 04/22/07 02:30 AM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: ironraven]
TK_Miller Offline

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 3
The one shown is around $300. You have to pass a background check before they will sell one to you. The replaceable heads are in the $25 range. There is a lazer that you just point and shoot. The darts do not have to penetrate the clothing. The charge can be administered even through thick garments.

I've taken the 'lightning ride' myself without getting stuck with the probes. We used a training head with aligator clips and let me tell you, 5 seconds is a long ride.

I wouldn't no about CC purposes, but they are classified as non-lethal.

#91957 - 04/22/07 05:19 AM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: silent_weapon]
OldBaldGuy Offline

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
This might give you some idea of the stopping power of books...

#91959 - 04/22/07 05:56 AM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Susan Offline

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
It isn't LIKELY that you or your child would be in a school shooting, but... Regina Rohde was in the Columbine shooting and on Monday, she was at VA Tech when the shooting started. What are the odds???


#91996 - 04/22/07 08:27 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: TK_Miller]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Prices have dropped then, on the launcher. But at $25/shot, you can't train with it unless you have a much bigger bank roll than most private citizens do.

And they M26 is used around here. This winter they had a drunk who didn't get tazed because we was dressed for 30 below- the darts aren't long enough to make it through heavy clothing.

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

#92027 - 04/22/07 11:10 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: Tom_L]
benjammin Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK

I think your perspective is probably balanced for the threat level we currently perceive in the US. If I thought that things were ever getting so bad at home as they were in Baghdad, you can bet that I'd be toting the same body armor with me today that I had in most of 2005. I never really thought that body armor was that much of a protector anyways. It seems to still get penetrated fairly easily and does almost nothing more for you in an explosion like the mortars and roadside bombs we faced.

I guess it is playing the odds, but in the war zone, we took precautions I don't ever want to have to use back home. The risks were simply much greater there, and you took the threats a lot more seriously. We are forced to measure our response to the perceived threat around us, and for now that threat is minimal, albeit fragile.

While I wouldn't compare an American classroom to soldiering anywhere, I did compare it to classrooms in Iraq, where I saw some of the bravest families I've known walking their kids to school each day. For them, school is a most valued privilege that is really worth risking your life for. How much could we use a dose of perspective like this, but for the reduced quality of life that goes with such a condition. We may be in a seemingly safe society, but I would caution folks not to believe that it is terribly secure. That veil can be pierced very easily and deeply, and will be some day if things don't change. If someone like me can recognize the impact attacking our children en masse would have, then doubtless it has crossed the minds of those who would seek to do us the most harm. However unlikely, the threat remains and the severity is horrendous. I've been to third world countries, and I've seen the weeping of parents over murdered children, and it is the worst suffering imaginable.

As far as flakpaks and other such implements go, I am forced to quote an old cliche: "The best defense is a good offense". The assailants big advantage is that his victims are captive and have relatively no offensive capabilities whatsoever. As we discovered in Iraq repeatedly, when BGs start shooting, the best way to get them to stop is to shoot back. Nothing disrupts an attack quicker than a surprise counter attack using like or greater measures. I would much rather my daughters shoot to kill than to risk jumping out a 5 story window, barricading themselves into a room with only one entrance or exit, or boldly charging blazing guns. The best, most effective way to deal with a nutso psycho in such a situation is from a good distance with the drop on him; a sure eye, a steady hand, and a gutful of determination to stop this lunatic in his tracks. I happen to believe that the law of survival will always trump criminal law. So I will disagree with you and say instead that it is a combination of the right tools and the right mindset that allows you to best determine the outcome of a confrontation. Remove either, and your chances diminish considerably.

As for the deep slash on the wrists, I should have specified as well that it is at the base of the palm I would aim for, not higher up where the bones can displace the blade some.

By the way, you may not have seen it in the news, for some reason it is being supressed, but on friday two bombs went off at my daughter's high school south of Denver. One was apparently equipped with a charge of C-4 that failed to detonate. They caught the idiot that set them off, and likely he will give up his buddies who helped him, but no firearms were involved. Just goes to show that taking away the guns won't do much to stop diminish the threat I guess.
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

#92162 - 04/23/07 09:37 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: benjammin]
kharrell Offline
Typical Survival Victim

Registered: 02/10/07
Posts: 51

A student was able to "dispatch" the shooter after victim #10 with a pistol he always carried in his backpack.

Would he be a hero?

#92163 - 04/23/07 10:07 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: kharrell]
benjammin Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

#92173 - 04/23/07 11:18 PM Re: Survival in the classroom? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
silent_weapon Offline

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 38
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
This might give you some idea of the stopping power of books...

Thanks for the link oldbaldguy...guess I won't need to go to the range. Sounds like a backpack full of heavy textbooks is nearly as good as my bullet "resistant" vest at work smile

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