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#87886 - 03/09/07 05:34 PM Re: expandable batons... [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Misanthrope Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 156
Loc: Chicago burbs
Reminds me of a story I was told long ago.

MAC/SOG troops in Vietnam, who had been doing reconnaissance work over the border, would be called in for debriefing by Misters Smith and Jones, civilians in Hawaiian shirts.

After being asked questions about terrain and enemy movement, a soldier was asked about urination and defecation. The soldier replied he had done neither. The soldier was asked again, in an incredulous tone, "You spent 10 days on mission and didn't relieve yourself once?"

To which the soldier replied "I had the [censored] scared out of me, and the last place in the world were I want to get caught with my pants around my ankles is f**king North Vietnam!!"


M
_________________________
I hear voices....And they don't like you.

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#87902 - 03/09/07 07:27 PM Re: expandable batons... [Re: djk010468]
djk010468 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
Again, it seems that we are at two extremes.

To me, there is one stance - where your feet are under you and you are in balance to move. Your body knows how to do this, if you let it. Especially if you have any athleticism. Unless you are going to train all the time, worrying about that complicates matters. I have seen people hesitate, and leave themselves vulnerable. When we talk about it, they feel their stance was "wrong." I have even seen them look down at their feet trying to figure out what is wrong. This will get them hurt.

You do not need to go to the extreme of having a "front stance" or a "back stance", etc. You need to be in balance, and solid. Anything beyond that is extra, and if you want to be fancy, fine. My point was that you don't need all of that to be effective. We should not discourage someone from having a weapon for legitimate defense, and using it at need, simply because they haven't gone to that level of training. If they have played any kind of contact or movement sport they have enough stance to get by.

Sure, someone with more training will be better. But that is not to say that the average person should be discouraged from having something rather than nothing.

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#87904 - 03/09/07 07:45 PM Re: expandable batons...
djk010468 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: yeti
Apparently, my post came across as a personal attack. I did not intend it as such. That stated, I simply disagree with a number of your comments and conclusions.


It did, but part of that may have been me.

Originally Posted By: yeti

When I taught self-defense classes, we would train over and over on a number of simple, but effective, techniques. The reasoning was that in a high stress situation, with the resulting adrenaline dump, training and muscle memory will hopefully overcome the inherent panic response.


I never said you shouldn't practice. But the knowledge portion is not that much. Practice can be done without formality, in front of a mirror.

Originally Posted By: yeti
My training and personal experience lead me to a contrary conclusion. Stance is all important. A punch thrown without proper body mechanics involves nothing more than the muscles of the arm. A proper punch involves the entire body mass.


I agree about a proper punch, but you don't need complicated stances to do that. And a punch with the arm is better than nothing.

Originally Posted By: yeti
I have fought sport. My street experience is more than some, less than others. I will leave the posting of street experience to the mall ninjas and children. I'm not posting as a means of ego masturbation.

I have never fought point, but I am friends with some very good point fighters, who are well aware of the limitations of point sparring. My belt is worn to hold up my pants, and yes, today it is black. Tomorrow it might be brown. I never did Kata, as I never studied the traditional Japanese arts. However, my forms in the other arts always left something to be desired.


These comments on my part were not entirely appropriate. My perception of a personal attack raised my hackles, and I responded. I have encountered entirely too many "strip mall black belts" who thought they were something special. My comments were hasty.

Originally Posted By: yeti
Once again, I disagree. Underestimating your opponent, in the ring or in the alley, can get you killed. I would also suggest you talk to any corrections officer about what the inmates are practising in the exercise yard.


I agree, you should not underestimate your opponent. But, that said, what are you to do? Have a weapon and try to use it as best you can, or? What? Submit?

Originally Posted By: yeti
I did previously concede that any weapon would be an improvement over empty hand techniques. However, I still believe my initial advice was valid: Don't carry a weapon until you have reached a level of proficiency. I have witnessed more than a few occasions were individuals have pulled a knife and literally had it taken a way from them in seconds. That can be some bad juju..


Again, your statements have some truth to them, but what is the alternative? Training takes time, and not everyone has that time. And even if they did, it doesn't happen overnight. What is this person to do NOW? My position is that if the choice is to learn some quick basics, and fight, or submit because the bad guy might be better than you, I choose to fight.





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#87909 - 03/09/07 08:04 PM Re: expandable batons...
djk010468 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: yeti
Training brings with it proper attitude AND technique, which beats simple brute force and bravado every time. Your initial post gave the impression of discounting that. Your counter point continues that.


Not my point. Training is great. My point is that training takes time, and until that time is in, a person needs to do something, unless you advocate they just adopt the position of "OK, I'm not trained and you MIGHT be, so I'll just lay down and die now." And agressive response, even if it is not the optimal response, can be effective. It is certainly better than doing nothing.

Originally Posted By: yeti
Example, stances. Stance is important, as how you hold yourself determines the the areas about your body into which you can block and strike, limits your visibility and profile, can reduce your mobility when it comes time to move your feet. What you are describing works well enough, if there is one attacker, you have a heavy club, and you take the time to beat them down.


Again, you are complicating matters for a beginner. These are great things to learn, if you have a good teacher and the time to learn it, but what about TONIGHT?

Originally Posted By: yeti
And with a telescoping baton, you're going to be there for a while. Hope you get mugged by a narcoleptic, because one of the trade offs for the portability is a loss of brute mass.


Sorry, I disagree with this totally. A good ASP or Monadnoc has plenty of mass. Even an untrained person of reasonable athleticism can swing it pretty hard.

Originally Posted By: yeti
Of course, in that amount of time, the other guy who didn't notice has shoved a junk knife in your kidney because you were too busy going caveman on the one you did see.


Again, agree and disagree. This can certainly happen, to even the trained. But, aggressively engaging the opponent you do see is better than not engaging them and looking around for someone else. Deal with the problem at hand.

Originally Posted By: yeti
If instead, you had broken mook A's knee cap then kicked him in the head, you'd have heard mook B coming. Anger isn't attitude, it's desperation. A clear mind survives.


I don't know where that comes from. Doesn't quite make sense. All I am saying is do the best you can with what you have. If you can do that, great, that's the ultimate goal. I don't want to stand in a fight, I want to hurt them and get away.

Guys, what I am saying here is you don't have to become a live in monk at the dojo and become a grand master in order to improve your chances of survival right now. Having a baton is better than not having one. Having one and a few hours to get the basics is better still. Sure, if you want to become a grand master, do so. I never said not to train. What I said was that you shouldn't NOT get and carry a baton because some arbitrary standard of proficiency has not yet been achieved.

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#87915 - 03/09/07 08:30 PM Re: expandable batons... [Re: Misanthrope]
djk010468 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
I never said that one shouldn't train. And I'm not talking about having an attitude and dueling. I'm talking about defending yourself when you have no other choice.

I disagree with the statement that one should not have a baton until some arbitrary level of proficiency is attained. Training takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. So, what is a person to do TONIGHT?

Having a baton is better than not having one. Having one and a few hours of instruction is better still. Practicing what you have been taught can be done in front of a mirror, as time permits. Getting more training is even better, but that doesn't help right NOW. Not everyone can drop everything and become a live in monk at the dojo.

The position being implied here is that until you have achieved some undefined proficiency, you should just surrender. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that. "Gee Mr. Bad Guy, I'm not yet sufficiently trained, and well, you MIGHT be, so I'll just lay down and die now." Doesn't work for me. Might he get beat? Sure. I might get beat even after training. But if you don't try with everything you can, you will definitely be beat. Sometimes an agressive response, even if it isn't the best technique in existence, can be effective. It is definitely better than giving up.

Even for the trained, there is always one that's better. And anyone can have a bad day. My point is, take whatever you have, and defend yourself as best you can, and never give up. The only sure thing is that if you give up, you lose.

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#87916 - 03/09/07 08:33 PM Re: expandable batons... [Re: Misanthrope]
djk010468 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
It did come across as an attack, part of that may have been my perception. Some of my comments may have been inappropriate and hasty because of that. No offence was intended.

I can agree to debate civilly.

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#87921 - 03/09/07 08:55 PM Re: expandable batons... [Re: djk010468]
Misanthrope Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 156
Loc: Chicago burbs
Where to start?

The title of this web site is Equipped to Survive.. Doug's trademarked logo is "Chance favors only the prepared and equipped."

I like my toy..equipment as much as the next guy, but knowing how to operate it properly, whether it be a flint rod, min-14 or collapsable baton, is equally important.

I would suggest, without meaning insult, that you read the ETS section on Urban Survival.

I have no idea what your marial experience is, either training, ring, or street, but your posts have left me scratching my head.
("To me, there is one stance - where your feet are under you and you are in balance to move. Your body knows how to do this, if you let it. Especially if you have any athleticism. Unless you are going to train all the time, worrying about that complicates matters." Practisng martial arts in front of a mirror, a substitue for training? What is this, the Karate Kid? Kata or forms, maybe.)

You insulted me without knowing anything about me.

You keep inferring that other posters are advocating submission, which I cannot find in any of their posts.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish.

M

"it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing." - Billy S.








_________________________
I hear voices....And they don't like you.

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#87951 - 03/10/07 04:28 AM Re: expandable batons... [Re: djk010468]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...take whatever you have, and defend yourself as best you can, and never give up. The only sure thing is that if you give up, you lose..."

Very true. My main worry is that many people, as soon as they get their hands on some "tool" (for lack of a better word here) they think that they are safe, and can take on the world. When I was in the service I saw several fights between Marines right out of boot camp, and a sailor with a tad more experience. While the Marine was trying to remember how to use some of that fancy stuff he just learned, the sailor ended the fight with one punch...
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#87964 - 03/10/07 05:38 AM Re: expandable batons... [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Blackeagle Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
My main worry is that many people, as soon as they get their hands on some "tool" (for lack of a better word here) they think that they are safe, and can take on the world.


Or as Colonel Jeff Cooper said, "Owing a gun no more makes you armed than owning a piano makes you a musician."

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#87965 - 03/10/07 05:44 AM Re: expandable batons... [Re: Blackeagle]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Ya had to love the Colonel. I got to watch him shoot one time. He just kind of pointed his 1911 in the general direction of a gong out about 100 yards, and hit it ever time...
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OBG

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