A baton is serious but a gun ain't? Does that mean that taking him alive is an offence? Whereas shooting him comes under garbage disposal?

Me like.......

OK who the heck are you? Your flaming sarcasm is misplaced and unnecessary. I don't understand your venom. The question was asked about Batons. My position is that they are useful, not that they make you superman. Just like any other weapon. It's not brain surgery. Most people know how to move, and they know how to swing a stick. You sound like one of these types that believes if you don't train it every day and become some sort of ninja you might as well hang it up.

I'm not talking about being able to take on a grand master like yourself. You make things way too complicated. Stances, what bull. In the street - however you are standing is how you fight, you don't have time to worry about stances. You might have lots of sport "fight" training but your comments show a strong lack of street experience. I'd bet you are a black belt point sparrer, and you probably have picture perfect Kata. Goody for you.

Yes, I can teach someone to keep their off hand in front of them as a guard in two hours. It's not that hard. I'm not worried about some sort of surgical precision strike against a specific leg. Hit whichever one is reachable. Street confrontations aren't planned out. And it doesn't take that long to defang the snake. If someone can hit a baseball, they can hit an extended hand/arm as it comes towards them. It doesn't have to look pretty, it just has to work. Hit the hand or arm with a metal stick, and chances are he will drop it.

You assume that the aggressor has much more skill than he most likely does. Look at the statistics. Most bad guys are not trained, and are not that skilled. Again, I didn't say you would dance with a grand master, I said the baton was a useful tool.

And yes go ahead, throw names around. I don't care who you have trained with. That's not the point. You are totally correct, if this person is going up against a grand master with "almost 25 years of training under their belt", then they are in for a bad time. But they will have a better chance, small as it may be, with a baton, than with just their hands. Just because they haven't trained for 25 years doesn't mean they should lay down and die because the other guy might be better than they are.


"Combatives is 90% attitude and 10% technique"---Kelly McCann/Jim Grover

I was refering to the fact that the mere possession of a baton is a felony, while the possession of a handgun is a misd. That is just how the law is, go figure. When you get into the use of either, then the stakes can go up, way up...

I have had some escrima training as well as other martial arts training over the years and I like sticks. I still take private martial arts lessons a few times a week. Never used a baton though.

I think I am partial to having a magazine when I am out and about town. If I ever get attacked (only been attacked once in my life and the assailants weren't trained, just stoned or drunk and the confrontation ended very quickly), it would take about as long to deploy a baton as it would to roll up a magazine (oh, and I didn't have a magazine that one time, but it wasn't necessary). And while the magazine is shorter than a baton, it can still hit pretty hard and give a little extra reach.

Plus, 99.99999% and hopefully 100% of the time, it will be used for its intended purpose...reading material. It can also be tinder, insulation and it is PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. friendly and shouldn't provoke anything. Sometimes having a weapon can provoke a confrontation too. Plus, having a magazine does not make me feel too aggresive or cocky. And I would be worried about problems with the law.

I agree with the sentiment that attitude is key. Just be aware and stay out of situations that could be dangerous. My only confrontation was because I didn't follow that advice that one time and went down a dark alley late at night (younger and stupider then). I avoid or walk away from everything else so far. My instructor is more aggessive than I am and has had many confrontations, armed and otherwise.

Thinking that the people that carry a baton or any other weapon are either ready, willing and able to use it or have it and may not be as ready and willing and able both scare me.

He's been around a while, and he's a known value here.

Training brings with it proper attitude AND technique, which beats simple brute force and bravado every time. Your initial post gave the impression of discounting that. Your counter point continues that.

Example, stances. Stance is important, as how you hold yourself determines the the areas about your body into which you can block and strike, limits your visibility and profile, can reduce your mobility when it comes time to move your feet. What you are describing works well enough, if there is one attacker, you have a heavy club, and you take the time to beat them down.

And with a telescoping baton, you're going to be there for a while. Hope you get mugged by a narcoleptic, because one of the trade offs for the portability is a loss of brute mass. Of course, in that amount of time, the other guy who didn't notice has shoved a junk knife in your kidney because you were too busy going caveman on the one you did see.

If instead, you had broken mook A's knee cap then kicked him in the head, you'd have heard mook B coming. Anger isn't attitude, it's desperation. A clear mind survives.

Apparently, my post came across as a personal attack. I did not intend it as such. That stated, I simply disagree with a number of your comments and conclusions.

"The most useful for the street can be learned in about 2 hours. These are the items a civilian is most likely to be able to use. Block. Strike. This is instinctive."

When I taught self-defense classes, we would train over and over on a number of simple, but effective, techniques. The reasoning was that in a high stress situation, with the resulting adrenaline dump, training and muscle memory will hopefully overcome the inherent panic response.

"All the rest is fancy stuff, but you don't really need it to defend yourself, and I think it is a mistake to discount the baton just because you haven't trained in it."

"Stances, what bull. In the street - however you are standing is how you fight, you don't have time to worry about stances. You might have lots of sport "fight" training but your comments show a strong lack of street experience. I'd bet you are a black belt point sparrer, and you probably have picture perfect Kata. Goody for you."

My training and personal experience lead me to a contrary conclusion. Stance is all important. A punch thrown without proper body mechanics involves nothing more than the muscles of the arm. A proper punch involves the entire body mass.

I have fought sport. My street experience is more than some, less than others. I will leave the posting of street experience to the mall ninjas and children. I'm not posting as a means of ego masturbation.

I have never fought point, but I am friends with some very good point fighters, who are well aware of the limitations of point sparring. My belt is worn to hold up my pants, and yes, today it is black. Tomorrow it might be brown. I never did Kata, as I never studied the traditional Japanese arts. However, my forms in the other arts always left something to be desired.


"You assume that the aggressor has much more skill than he most likely does. Look at the statistics. Most bad guys are not trained, and are not that skilled."

Once again, I disagree. Underestimating your opponent, in the ring or in the alley, can get you killed. I would also suggest you talk to any corrections officer about what the inmates are practising in the exercise yard.

I did previously concede that any weapon would be an improvement over empty hand techniques. However, I still believe my initial advice was valid: Don't carry a weapon until you have reached a level of proficiency. I have witnessed more than a few occasions were individuals have pulled a knife and literally had it taken a way from them in seconds. That can be some bad juju.

M

Another thing about stance. With a good one (what some call a position of advantage) you can not only strike with more power, but you can take a blow/shove/whatever and have a chance of keeping your balance. With a poor stance, a light shove can land you on your fanny. And once on the ground you are more than likely dead meat...

Another thing that can work is something as simple as a Mini-maglite, with a whole bunch of keys attached to the ring. It can be used as a kuboton or yawara (other tools that really require training to be fully effective), and a whack across the eyes with a large bunch of keys might discourage some badguys (might make some madder too, a possibility you always have to keep in mind)...

I think proper body mechanics is extremely important in pretty much anything you do. I have been taught both sides. The more traditional side tend to focus on stance and form. The more applied type teaching tell me not to worry about the exact stance and form but to make sure the proper body mechanics are employed. When they are, the form and stance is usually pretty solid. It may not win a forms competition (never been in one), but it should help you get out of your situation if you are unfortunate enough to get into one in the first place.

OBG, I tend to agree with you. I would rather be able to use a non-weapon as a weapon than rely on carrying an actual weapon around. If I am in a parking lot, my keys are in my hand where they can be used to open my car and to give me a little edge I hope I won't need. I think if a badguy were to attack me or especially my family, the keys will be in the eyes and throat, not a whack across. Call 911 for police and ambulance as I drive off to get my family out of there. Don't get me wrong, I detest violence. I just rather stop it as fast as I can, if I can, than have it delivered on me or my family.

My teacher has had so many "encounters" in his life, it is incredible. He has been attacked by guys wielding knives, bats and bottles. He has been jumped by a homeless guy while jogging. Been accosted while trying to watch a game with his family at a stadium. Been jumped by a couple of punks in a public bathroom at a park while he was trying to do his business. I cannot imagine a more vulnerable position than with your pants down like that. Funny thing is he has been the one to walk out of those situations, not the assailants. He has helped the police as a citizen a few times too. I have had one encounter and I think it was one too many even though I was unscathed.

My point in mentioning all this is that as a young man, many many years ago, he was one of those guys that would look for trouble. And he often found it, or it found him. It also seemed to have followed him over the decades until recently. I wish you all peace and hope you all have good intentions and hope we all stay safe. I think the saying "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" can be so very true. So be careful if you choose to carry a weapon and know your intentions as well as limitations when you do. I hope it gives you peace of mind and you never have to use it to defend yourself and heaven forbid, ever use it in anger.

Wow, remind me to never go anywhere with your teacher!!! But you brought up a good point. You are indeed wide open, so to speak, when standing at a urinal taking care of business. Which is why I always try to go into a stall, hopefully one that has a latch on the door. I once knew an on-duty LEO who got the snot beat out of him in a gas station restroom, caught with his hands full at the wrong time...