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#87787 - 03/08/07 06:35 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Tjin]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.
Blackeagle,

Had I based my argument solely on the credentials of the researchers, you would be correct. I have listed links to research, other non-associated experts (Dr. Daniel I. Sessler, Univ. of Louisville Medical School), and the original source.

In return, those who disagree have offered this:

Originally Posted By: PC2K
I don't have scientific numbers. but isn't it obvious ...


Originally Posted By: joaquin39
I have not done any research about "covering your head when your feet are cold cover your head", but there is thr hard fact that...


Originally Posted By: oldsoldier
...it only stands to reason that we lose more heat through the head than other parts.


Originally Posted By: Old Scout
It has been passed on to me that some key controlling organs (glands) for these functions are located in the head/neck area and must be attended to in treating hypothermia. Thus, I have always taught that in...


Originally Posted By: ironraven
...it flies in the face in other laboratory research and massive amounts of real world experiences.


Originally Posted By: RAS
My theory is that...


Originally Posted By: JCWohlschlag
Somehow I find more credibility in the various thermal images I’ve seen...



Opinion, conjecture, anecdotel evidence, outdated research from 1957...Well, now that I've alienated a good portion of this boards most active members, I think I'll let this one go. It's been fun playing but I have a feeling the Moderators may be getting tired of this thread.








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#87789 - 03/08/07 07:02 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Lasd02]
Blackeagle Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Salt Lake City, UT
Originally Posted By: Lasd02
Blackeagle,

Had I based my argument solely on the credentials of the researchers, you would be correct. I have listed links to research, other non-associated experts (Dr. Daniel I. Sessler, Univ. of Louisville Medical School), and the original source.


The fact that your point isn't solely based on the researchers credentials doesn't mean that their credentials aren't relevant, and it doesn't make questioning those credentials an ad hominem attack.

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#87792 - 03/08/07 07:31 PM Re: Survival Myths [Re: Lasd02]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
THIS is the link to the Newsletter that discusses this. One particular quote is significant:
Quote:
Now, what about hypothermia and heat loss through the head?
If the hypothermia victim is not shivering, they are at rest, and the heat loss through the head remains about 7%. But, this is important, if they are shivering, the percent of heat loss via the scalp can increase to upwards of 55%, so protecting the head well is a very important part of treating the hypothermia patient. And as you can imagine, the primary defense against the cold and hypothermia is vasoconstriction of the peripheral circulation, this shunts blood to the core, reduces circulation to the skin, and increases the percent of heat loss through the scalp.

_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#87796 - 03/08/07 08:01 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Susan]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Susan, the fact that one of the founders of SOLO was part of this mess is why I didn't write it off as three cranks.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#87798 - 03/08/07 08:39 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Blackeagle]
AROTC Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
Now that would be Argumentum ad verecundiam or an appeal to authority. Which is a false arguement unless the person is an expert in the field. When you make an appeal to an authority the opposite side has the right to question that authority. Ad hominem attacks are only irrelevant attacks on a person, questioning an experts credentials isn't irrelevant, its central to the debate.
_________________________
A gentleman should always be able to break his fast in the manner of a gentleman where so ever he may find himself.--Good Omens

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#87799 - 03/08/07 08:41 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Lasd02]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Originally Posted By: Lasd02

NightHiker,
The funny thing is, if someone else had posted this info not too long ago, I too would have disagreed. This information comes from a credible source (Wilderness Medicine Newsletter), and seems to be up to date (2/14/07).


"... The idea that we lose heat faster through our scalp, because of the constant blood supply to the brain, is simply a myth. (One that I personally have believed for many years.)"

Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht, PHD


As someone else said, it may not make your feet feel warmer, but a hat will help prevent heat loss from your head. Doc Gordon is no different than other scientists who claim, DESPITE the overwhelming majority f the scientific institution and historical facts developed by that institution, that global warming is man-made and we can do something about it.

In other words, a person with credentials who makes a claim that goes against the remaining scientific community's findings is probably the person you DON'T want to listen to.... let alone quote as your source for facts.
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#87801 - 03/08/07 08:53 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Stretch]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Also....note that Doc Gordon didn;t say how he dubunked this "myth" (if he did and you're aware of it, please post....I'm sure it would be interesting).

Why is there hair on our heads??

Why is it that, when we go out in cold weather, our heads are usually the LAST thing to get cold? Because there's so much heat rising from it!

Why, in today's society, do we go against historical and empirical evidence, and sometimes even common sense and logical thought, and jump to believe the first accredited person who makes a statement or claim contrary to what the rest are saying? Because sometimes (we) are seeking to discredit and undermine all (we) believe in and the first hint of evidence that wafts by (we) grab and hold on to.

There is considerable heat loss through the head and covering it in cold weather will help to warm other parts of the body. If the head is losing generous amounts of heat, the body works harder to replace that heat, diverting attention from other body parts. Source: Doctor Stretch.

It will take more than Doc Gordon and two others to convince me and others otherwise.


Edited by Stretch (03/08/07 08:54 PM)
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#87802 - 03/08/07 09:09 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Lasd02]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Originally Posted By: Lasd02
..........
Opinion, conjecture, anecdotel evidence, outdated research from 1957...Well, now that I've alienated a good portion of this boards most active members, I think I'll let this one go. It's been fun playing but I have a feeling the Moderators may be getting tired of this thread.



Why would a moderator "tire" of this thread? What are they, parents to stop the bickering? It's an arguement...clear and simple. As you can see, the moderator's wisely stayed out...or watched from a distance.

With all due respect Lasd02, you dismissed the opinions of the members simply because they didn;t include a "source" for posting what to them is known as "empirical evidence". You did include a source, or three, and are pontificating that, since you did, you must be right. Well, I don;t think so. I don;t think it's necessary for anyone who is in agreement with the majority of the scientific community to have to try and discredit Doc Gordon's "theory". Conversely, I think it is you who has to provide MORE THAN Doc Gordon and his fellows if you choose to discredit or go against the overwhelming majority. Does that make sense?
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#87803 - 03/08/07 09:51 PM Re: Survival Myths [Re: Lasd02]
leeana Offline


Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 21
Loc: so cal
this horse is dead. long live the horse.

you wrote: "Please, by all means keep your beanies on and I will do the same, but let's not do so out of ignorance."

i do not keep my beanie on out of ignorance, i keep it on out of experience. when i'm cold i put on my beanie, and guess what? i get warm.

and i think that's what your original myth was about - and what you are trying to determine. as has been said here, in better words than mine, when your feel that your feet are cold, it's your body telling you to get warmer. and most people overlook a hat as a means to becoming or staying warm. just watch the crowd shots at a winter football game sometime - i think you'd be surprised at how many people wear hats - and the ones that look miserable are hatless.

"I believe the 1957 study you link to is the same one referred to here: "

no, my first link was to a 2006 paper from the american college of sports medicine entitled 'prevention of cold injuries during exercise' in which they quoted and referred to my second link. that researcher was from the laboratory of biophysics, university of western ontario, london, canada. it doesn't state whether or not the military had anything to do with it or not.

please do not misunderstand, i think you raised valuable ideas and issues. and i hope you continue to do so. you certainly inspired a lot of people to respond to your initial missive. congratulations on stimulating the group!

and on the trail, i'll be the one in the beanie.


Edited by leeana (03/08/07 09:59 PM)

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#87805 - 03/08/07 10:43 PM Re: Survival Myths [Re: leeana]
oldsoldier Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 742
Loc: MA
So, is it OK to wear my hat in the winter again? wink
_________________________
my adventures

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