Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 6 of 13 < 1 2 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 12 13 >
Topic Options
#87676 - 03/07/07 08:28 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Lasd02]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
When they say that there is abundant scientific information then "debunk" it with a test that actually measures nothing similar to the realities of the human body, it makes me question their scientific integrity. Hypothermia research is based on thousands of rescues and just as many failed ones, scientific testing on lab animals, and *gags at the thought* Dr Mengele's "research".

These three guys are saying they crunched some numbers and tossed some water in a bath tub and they can change the world. Sorry, science doesn't work that way. They've got some interesting theories, but their experimental methodology seems shoddy and it flies in the face in other laboratory research and massive amounts of real world experiences. If their results can be substantiated by experimental data that results in a treatment regimen that actually produces quantitative and qualitative improvements in the prevention and treatment of cold injuries, great. But until it is, it stinks of bad science and isn't supported by generations of experience. If science worked that way, the team that claimed to have found cold fusion fifteen years ago would have multiple Nobel prizes and the Saudi royal family would be living in a tent.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

Top
#87680 - 03/07/07 08:39 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Susan]
Frozen Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 86
Alcohol will cause vasodialation of the blood vessels of the skin, and will cause greater loss of body heat, and alcohol can seriously impair your judgment.


Top
#87682 - 03/07/07 08:42 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Lasd02]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
I have not been able to find the complete article in the Wilderness Medicine Newsletter, so it is hard to know what the study’s parameters, measurement methodologies and controls were based upon. However, based upon the limited description of the study in the “Myth Buster” Newsletter, I must disagree that the myth has been debunked.

Simply measuring core temperature (what the Myth Buster article states) is not a true indicator of the variations in heat loss/retention from various parts of the body.

It is not uncommon to find the “experts” in the scientific field to disagree in examining the results of the same study, no less so in studies that have the appearance of being scientific or controlled, but in fact are flawed in either design, data collect and/or interpretation.

What this limited “study” would show, if anything would be a theory, not a fact. As the study would have to be repeated by others, the observations reproduced, peer reviewed and then stand the test of time before it would become fact.

Also, even if the commonly stated heat loss from the head (I have read everything from 40% to 70%) is only 10%, that 10% loss can be substantial. Keep in mind it is not only the overall loss of 10%, but the rate as well. The rate of heat loss, likely plays as big, if not a bigger factor in the rapid development of hypothermia.

Pete


Top
#87693 - 03/07/07 09:53 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: paramedicpete]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

Being somewhat of a skeptic myself I'm encouraged to see many of you holding my feet to the fire on this as these issues are potentially matters of life and death, but I ask you to meet the same standard you are holding me to. If my source was an article from the Assistant Sports Editor of The Podunk Times then I would expect to be questioned and doubted, but this is a well established, highly professional group of wilderness medicine experts, if we don't believe these guys, who can we believe? Please don't tell me, "The USCG has always taught...", or "Generations of experience and science have shown..." How about some links to sites and/or comparable experts that show up-to-date research and results? Of course "experts" often disagree, should we then throw out all "expert advice" and go by instinct alone?

You may not like the results, but I've shown you "my" experts and research, I apologize to all the non-poker players, but I'm calling the table, show me what you've got.


Top
#87694 - 03/07/07 10:13 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Menawa]
Misanthrope Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 156
Loc: Chicago burbs
If you take caffeine, nicotine and alcohol out of the equation who the mad mad mad mad wants to survive anyhow?

M
_________________________
I hear voices....And they don't like you.

Top
#87702 - 03/07/07 11:26 PM Re: Survival Myths [Re: Lasd02]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

THE CLAIM: You lose most of your body heat through your head.

THE FACTS: "Put on a hat," parents tell their children before sending them outside on bitter winter days. While that might be sound advice, the popular belief behind it -- that most of the body's heat escapes through the head -- is misguided. The amount of heat released by any part of the body depends largely on its surface area, and on a cold day you would lose more heat through an exposed leg or arm than a bare head.

Dr. Daniel I. Sessler, an anesthesiologist and expert on hypothermia at the University of Louisville medical school, said the popular myth stems from military experiments conducted five decades ago.

Here's an interesting link: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/2/669

and another: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1690440

And this quote: "both groups showed dips in temperature during surgery and recovery, but there was no significant effect of the hats alone. Conclusions: Our results indicate that the combined use of preoperative reflective hats and jackets, but not hats alone, significantly reduced temperature drop during outpatient surgery. Intraoperative reflective blankets had a small, but not significant, effect on temperature. We conclude that the prevention of intraoperative heat loss is provided by preoperative reflective hats and jackets, is not improved with intraoperative reflective blankets, and is more closely related to the total body surface area covered than which area is covered. "

Can be found here: http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ija/vol6n2/temp.xml


Top
#87703 - 03/07/07 11:38 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: Frozen]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
Originally Posted By: Frozen
Alcohol will cause vasodialation of the blood vessels of the skin, and will cause greater loss of body heat, and alcohol can seriously impair your judgment.


I think thats the idea grin
_________________________
Depend on yourself, help those who are not able, and teach those that are.

Top
#87704 - 03/07/07 11:46 PM Re: Caffiene and alcohol [Re: ironraven]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
I really don't want to get into the argument about the science and methodology of the experiments, but it seems to me that if I dress for cold weather except for my head thats where I'm going to lose the most heat, and putting a hat on will help retain heat keeping my feet and every thing else warmer (relatively) speaking. But then again nothing keeps my feet warm except a nice friendly snow bunny.
_________________________
Depend on yourself, help those who are not able, and teach those that are.

Top
#87705 - 03/07/07 11:48 PM Re: Survival Myths [Re: Lasd02]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4587
Loc: SOCAL
I have a question: Does body temperature have an effect on the rate of heat transfer? I think "Yes", and if so, as the body cools does the percentage of heat lost through the head increase? I think "Yes" to that question also.

Quote:
4. "If your feet are cold, put on a hat." Fact: We do not lose more heat from our heads than from any other portion of the body with the same surface area.
That last statement assumes the various surface areas have the same temperature. If they do have the same temp, then heat lost per square inch should be the same. But what if the two skin surfaces are not at the same temperature?

My theory is that once your feet are cold, heat lost through your head is already starting to increase as a percentage of skin surface area -- maybe just a little; but as your body starts to shut down it's (non-essential) extremities the primary skin surface with heat to give up is the head.

Just a theory, I'm no scientist and I don't play one on TV (or on the internet).

Top
#87708 - 03/08/07 12:27 AM Re: Survival Myths [Re: raydarkhorse]
Lasd02 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Pasadena, Calif.

Originally Posted By: raydarkhorse
But then again nothing keeps my feet warm except a nice friendly snow bunny.


Now you're talking...




Top
Page 6 of 13 < 1 2 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 12 13 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, cliff, Hikin_Jim 
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online
1 registered (haertig), 236 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Cowherd35, pecenco, jacklii, DIYELECTROAL, plazacutlery
5226 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Getting found: reflectivity & lights
by Herman30
08:02 AM
Puerto Rico - Real Large-Scale Emergency
by M_a_x
12/09/17 09:09 PM
The Cajun Navy
by hikermor
12/09/17 05:06 PM
How to Flee the Fire (in ten easy steps)
by hikermor
12/09/17 04:47 PM
rug could buy time between rattlesnake bite, anti
by Treeseeker
12/09/17 08:32 AM
"Climbing is Dangerous"
by Pete
12/07/17 05:27 AM
Hiking Sticks: Are You well-staffed?
by TeacherRO
12/05/17 07:40 PM
'and here is a pack for you' - prepping for others
by TeacherRO
12/05/17 07:40 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.