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#86603 - 02/24/07 08:41 PM Thanks Doug for the input [Re: Doug_Ritter]
widget Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 550
I still cannot justify the cost of a PLB. I think the concept is very good, great in fact. I also think it should take standard lithium batteries, be more water resistant and as a limited radio transmitter, cost much less than it currently does.
I wish James Kim had one along when he ventured off the Interstate. Myself, I will stick with amatuer radio, cell phones and perhaps rent a sat phone if I wonder way off the beaten path.
I do not see any debate here really, just a few good folks with some differnt perspectives on the beacon issue being proposed in Oregon. I appreciate your opinion on the PLB issues and they are certainly a move forward in wilderness emergency location. They are just not the ultimate safety answer for all who venture into the wilderness, just one potential option with some limitations that could be overcome.
If you continue your efforts perhaps someday they will be less expensive, take standard lithium batteries and become more durable. I think we would all appreciate some improvements, beyond the recently intoduced models of PLBs.
_________________________
No, I am not Bear Grylls, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and Bear was there too!

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#86664 - 02/25/07 04:44 PM Re: Thanks Doug for the input [Re: widget]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
The problem with taking standard batteries is that they aren't very good. Even the lithiums. The reason for this is they are designed as a series of compromises and are limited by the need to be, basically, backwards compatable. That limits your size, and your output levels.

You COULD make a AA-sized battery that puts out MUCH higher current, but no one WILL make it for liability and standardization reasons. It would be fairly easy to develop a CR123 replacement within the AA size envelope, but they won't for the issues I mentioned above. You could make D-sized battery that didn't suck, but no one will for the same reason. That is why your higher perfmance batteries (CR123, CR2, et al) are funny sizes. (Don't ask me why the N and A23, and certain watch batteries, are the same size. Those are the screw ball exceptions.)

When you have a propritary battery back on something that is basically a one use device, it lets you make the battery that is optimal for that device. That means you can get more power for your volume and mass. I've never taken a PLB apart, but you could practically wrap it around the components, reducing waisted bulk.

It also keeps you from thiefing it to power your MP3 player or any such silliness- people do stupid stuff, don't say you'll never do it, because every single person here has put thier back up batteries in a non-esential device, or spent thier emergency $20 on fast food when they didn't have other cash, or pulled some of the bug-in gas off for the lawn mower and didn't replace it right away. We've all done it, it's called being human. smile
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#86679 - 02/25/07 06:05 PM Re: Thanks Doug for the input [Re: ironraven]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I'm a back-ups to my back-ups kinda guy. Were I to go for a walk on Mt Hood I'd take the MLU, my Garmin Geko 301 (baro altimeter), cell phone and a PLB if DR can arrange an attractive group buy. Add up the weight of all that and it's still not that much additional weight. With any luck the guys monitoring the PLB will call my cell phone to check, and I'll give them a current position and elevation off my GPS smile Don't get stuck on either/or questions. If you have the $$$ to buy a PLB, $5 for an MLU rental is buried in the noise.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#86709 - 02/26/07 12:35 AM Re: Thanks Doug for the input [Re: widget]
Doug_Ritter Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2198
Originally Posted By: widget
If you continue your efforts perhaps someday they will be less expensive, take standard lithium batteries and become more durable. I think we would all appreciate some improvements, beyond the recently intoduced models of PLBs.

Well, I really cannot allow that comment to stand without a response as it implies that existing PLBs are somehow deficient in durability, which I do not believe is supported by the facts.

I always find it interesting that every electronics manufacturer (not an existing beacon manufacturer) who has come to me and thought they could produce a less expensive PLB, smaller PLB, etc., etc., has discovered it's a lot more difficult and expensive than they figured. I am still waiting for one of them to come through. <g>

After a few years working on the standards that govern these beacons, I have a better understanding why this is so. PLBs will get less expensive and smaller and lighter as the technology available allows, but reliably transmitting to a satellite in orbit 22,000 miles up is a lot more difficult than you might think. Add a GPS receiver to the equation that has to operate while the beacon is transmitting on 121.5 MHz homing frequency and it adds to the design problems.

The idea that you could use "standard lithium batteries," assuming you mean something you can buy off the shelf in a local store, while still meeting the tough standards and design criteria to produce a competitive product, reducing size and weight and all the rest, is pretty far fetched. Actually, to a degree what they all use are standard cells, just not what you can buy at the local store, and they are assembled into the battery package that works for any particular beacon. A package in which the power supplied is only one design factor, and often not the most critical. That's one way costs are kept down. Military beacons get more exotic batteries, not necessarily "standard," and they pay for it in much higher costs. It's one of those things that on the surface seems to be so easy, but really is not. And, unlike the issue with selling razor blades, there's little financial benefit to a company having a proprietary battery, they don't make much, if anything, on replacement batteries since they don't sell many and the service life is so long anyway. With the reduction in size and weight and price, people just go out a get a new beacon. Most I have spoken with in the business would love to not be in that business, at least with regards PLBs, it's just an expensive customer service nightmare PITA for them. Standard batteries would solve that problem, but they are not very practical for PLBs for a host of reasons. Wishing for lower cost beacons is one thing; wishing for something irrelevant and unimportant in the grand scheme of things like this, that's losing sight of what's important, which is saving lives.

As for the rest, I think the proposed standards are plenty for most circumstances. The latest ACR PLB is waterproof up to 16 ft (5 m) for one hour and 33 ft (10 m) for ten minutes. How much more waterproof, (always at greater expense in both cost and likely weight and size) would you want it, and how would that benefit the typical end user backpacker, climber, boater, etc.? PLBs are already required to withstand six drops from a height of 1 meter after cold soaked to -30 degrees or -40 degrees C (depending upon class). That's pretty cold for plastic and electronics to withstand impact forces. Given that gravity accelerates it at 10 meters/sec/sec and the force goes up at the square of the speed (if memory serves me correct), which means a even slightly higher standard requires significantly more hardening at ever increasing cost, weight and such, how much more hardened do you want it? ELTs have to survive 40 Gz and a lot more abuse, but they are lots heavier and much more expensive in part because of that requirement. It already far exceeds a cell phone or sat phone or most any other piece of typical consumer electronic gear in these regards.

Leading (and often bleeding) edge technology military beacons are available that are smaller and much tougher, but they also are 8-10 times more expensive and there isn't the economies of scale necessary to bring that technology to the mass market at this point. What we are seeing today was bleeding edge tech 5 years ago and has benefited from things like cell phone technology in digital electronics design, so it does trickle down eventually.

We spend a good deal of time in these committees arguing over where to draw the line on standards, what's good enough, at what point do you reach diminishing returns or is it counter productive? There is rarely a free lunch, though sometimes technology provides for a means to do better without a increase in cost, and that's one reason such standards are reviewed on a regular basis, so when technologically it can be made "better" without adverse impact we can raise the bar. However, the bottom line is always that anything that increases cost reduces the number of beacons in the hands of end users and anything that makes it less expensive increases the number of beacons out there and that translates into more lives saved. It always a balancing act.

We also have to design standards that actually ensure the product will reliably save lives. Some standards that have existed could be met with a design that wouldn't work worth a damn in the real world. If the goal was just to produce a low cost beacon, a company who might be located someplace where saving lives isn't part of the corporate or societal culture could design a lower cost beacon that would pass a standard, but might not save lives. What is the advantage of that? This is a real problem in some lifesaving gear (not yet for PLBs per se).

Anyway, I have rambled on long enough. Just want to ensure anyone reading this thread doesn't come away thinking that PLBs aren't capable within reason or that there's no thought given to these issues or that the solutions are as easy to accomplish as they are to suggest. I don't know any company in the business who isn't trying their utmost to make their beacons smaller, better and/or cheaper, or preferably a combination of these features.
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Doug Ritter
Editor
Equipped To Survive®
Chairman & Executive Director
Equipped To Survive Foundation
www.KnifeRights.org
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#86734 - 02/26/07 03:20 PM Re: Thanks Doug for the input [Re: Doug_Ritter]
PDHardin Offline


Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Florida
I am a beacon manufacturer (ACR) and thought I would insert a couple of comments that are general in nature.

Doug is spot on with his comments on batteries. Also, in an emergency, if you have a cell phone/GPS, Sat phone, and PLB, the only device you can rely on is a PLB. I read somewhere in this thread that

"There are also many instances when boats and planes go down and no signal is ever received."

Planes, yes; especially older C91a ELTs. Boats? I know of two instances in nearly twenty years where a 406 MHz EPIRB has failed to activate when deployed, and one was recent where the EPIRB deployed and was sucked into the boat by a Scupper Vent and went down with the vessel... The problem with ELTs and planes is the speed with wich many planes come in contact with the earth... and not relevant to a PLB discussion.

Secondly, and I'm not sure this is totally rellevant, but there is a place where they turn a blind eye to standards and where price is the primary motivating factor for safety equipment: Australia. In Australia 121.5 EPIRBs can still be purchased for around A$160.00. They are rotten EPIRBs. Most allow the use of off-the-shelf C or D batteries. In 1998 the Sydney - Hobart race resulted in the loss of 6 sailors lives, 55 people rescued from sailboats, 5 boats sank and 66 boats retired out of the 115 starters when multiple storms merged on the race. http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/1998_sydney_hobart.htm

The interesting part is every single one of the boats in the race had an EPIRB. In short, the cheap Aussy beacons didn't work. By the way, the Australian's play loose with all the standards; life rafts, PFDs, etc. They've taken the "let's make it cheap so more people will have safety equipment" philosophy to the point where the safety equipment is practically worthless. Now today the Sydney-Hobart race organizers require all participants to carry 406 MHz EPIRBs, (see point 3 in the above link). Unfortunately, their government is doing everything within its power to loosen the standards on 406 transmitters--so beacons can be made cheaper. Their logic: 406 is too good. If we relax the standards 406 will still be better than the 121.5 beacons that failed.

The bottom line here is that we are a "for profit" company and if we could sell more beacons we would like that. If we could make them cheaper without sacrificing performance and quality, then we would do that...And We Are! PLB prices are coming down. Performance is going up and their size is getting smaller, so stay tuned.

Thanks.


Edited by PDHardin (02/26/07 04:57 PM)

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#86748 - 02/26/07 05:29 PM EXECUTIVE SUMMARY [Re: PDHardin]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
IMHO - I have come to some conclusions about PLB's and survival forums. This is based on 38 years of discussion with my retail customers face-to-face and on line.

1. The market for the ACR PLB's is for outdoor individuals that take their safety seriously.

2. Negative comments about PLB's almost always include the word "cost" or "cheap".

3. Survival forums are not frequented by individuals buying high end products such as PLB's.

4. The ACR406 PLB-300 products are as close to perfect as a victim could wish for.

_________________________
Cliff Harrison
PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
N43.9668 W116.1888

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