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#7989 - 08/10/02 11:48 PM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Anonymous
Unregistered


>All that said, I would not consider a self-loading rifle to be an >optimum choice for an emergency firearm.<br><br>I am a real newbie to this forum, but an oldtimer, who has been handling guns since Iwas 9 years old; so that's 52 years of shootin', off-and-on. I would think that the *optimum* choice for an emergency firearm would be that one which you are most proficient in using, and more importantly, the one you actually have available to you when it is needed.<br><br>Remember the old saying: "Beware the man who owns but one gun".<br><br> >As mentioned before by others, rifle ammunition is just too >dangerous to use for defense in dense living environments.<br><br>That might be too much of a generalization. There are many rifles that use *pistol* ammunition, and the ammo is available in *light* loads. These could conceviably be less of a *problem* than many full-load pistol or revolver rounds.<br><br> >Also, practice with a bolt action rifle is very necessary >before mastering a semi-auto.<br><br>Again, too much of a generalization. I grew up with single shots and pump actions. My transition to semi-autos was no different than if I had practiced with a bolt-action. I personally know a few fellows who started with semi-autos and full autos, and may have never even picked up a bolt action rifle in their *shooting* life. I would stack their profeciency with firearms up against anyone you would like to pick. <br><br>>I also personally would not choose a shotgun<br><br>And I, and many others, would disagree with you, and would choose a shotgun. What is riding in the rack in the front seat of most police units today; shotgun or rifle? Why?<br><br>If the guides, and the people in exploration camps situated in *bear* country aren't carrying Marlin 444s or 45-70 lever-actions, then guess what most of them perfer to have around.<br><br>> as shot >patterns become wider over distance and this >increases the chances of your hitting things you are not >aiming at.<br><br>What is the diameter of the shot charge, for a round of bird shot, fired out of a 12 gague at 10 feet? At 15 feet? At 20 feet? What is the average distance involved between victim and perp in a confrontation, in an urban environment?<br><br>Now... what would most likely be the confrontation distance between you and a bear, in bear-country?<br><br>> People who prefer shotguns try to get around this by >loading birdshot in a home defense shotgun. However, >birdshot may not incapacitate a potential attacke<br><br>At what distance are you assuming that a round of birdshot becomes a non-stopper? Ever fired #6 or #8 birdshot at a door, at close range?<br><br>>Hence I recommend a handgun for home and camp/trail >defense. If you choose a revolver, you're pretty much >limited to types that chamber .38 Special+P, .357Magnum, >or .44 Special caliber ammunition,<br><br>Did they suddenly stop making the 44-40, 45 Long Colt, 40 S&W, 44 Rem. Mag, 9mm (yep, they can be used in revolvers), 41 Mag, etc.?<br><br>> and to 5" or shorter barrel >lengths. The previously mentioned Ruger SP101 is >anexcellent choice. <br><br>What happened to all of those revolvers that wore barrels of 5 1/2, 6, 7 and 8 inches. [censored]... did they stop making all of those also?<br><br>>For a self-loading handgun, your choices are limited to 9mm >Luger, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.<br><br>Does this mean my .40 S&W in my Kimber is not made anymore. I just bought it! And what about that 10mm my partner carries? And there are more...<br><br>> Virtually all pistols in this class have barrel lengths of >between 3" and 4"<br><br>"Virtually all"... This is not an accurate statement.<br><br>>If weight is a factor, a longer barreled revolver in .45 Long >Colt can be used for defense against bears and hostile >people in the field as well as for hunting, but makes a poor >choice for home defense. Modern .45 LC loads are >essentially magnum cartridges.<br><br>Are you really sure about this statement? Do you know what max. pressures the manufacturers load for in the .45 Long Colt, which might be stuffed into a revolver that was made last week, OR one that was made in 1880?<br> <br>> The .44 Magnum also falls in this category. <br><br>Where do the *soft* .44 mag loads fall?<br><br>Personally, if I could grab only one gun for home defense, or carry with me for long-term survival, it would be the one (of my many) that rest beside my bed, in this remote, non-urban, area. It's a 12 gauge Mosberg pump *Home Defender* with the 18 1/2 inch barrel.<br><br>Same kind of gun we kept around as bear protection in our exploration camps.<br><br>Consider this: my ammo belt has a mix to fit that gun. It carries #6 and #8 birdshot, 00 and 000 buckshot, 1 ounce slugs( rifled and sabotted), two white and two red signal flares, two illumination rounds, and two rounds of *animal crackers*.<br><br>I can also, with the addition of very little weight, throw an 18 1/2 inch rifled barrel, with rifle sights, into my packsack, and have the gun barrels switched out in approx. two minutes if I desire to use some rather accurate slugs for some deer meat. Accurate to 100 yards and beyond, too.<br><br>You have to go some to find a rifle, or pistol, or revolver, that can give you that versatility, when conditions may tend to be unpredictable, and probaly will always be different than that which you *planned* for.<br><br>I may carry a little more weight in ammo, and a little more weight on the sling, but I can react to changing conditions with a more properly-applied firepower than most other systems.<br><br>Prospector

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#7990 - 08/11/02 02:26 AM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Anonymous
Unregistered


"I would think that the *optimum* choice for an emergency firearm would be that one which you are most proficient in using, and more importantly, the one you actually have available to you when it is needed."<br><br>I certainly agree with that. As for the rest, your level and kind of experience is much different than mine, and I certainly wouldn't argue with you. <br><br>Perhaps my choice of words was a bit assumptive. There are certainly many different kinds of firearm calibers and configurations available; what I listed as "best" was based upon my own experience. My understanding is that Barb was advised to buy a semiautomatic rifle for what is basically home defense, and I think that's a terrible idea, for a number of reasons. <br><br>Again, the point is that you want to hit what your aiming at, not what may be behind or around a target. In the home or in other short-range defense environment, a handgun, chambered for familiar and widely available service calibers and with a 2-5 inch barrel, used with proper training, is the best choice, in my opinion. It is certainly not the only choice.

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#7991 - 08/11/02 03:17 AM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Anonymous
Unregistered


>My understanding is that Barb was advised to buy a >semiautomatic rifle for what is basically home defense, and I >think that's a terrible idea, for a number of reasons. <br><br>Agreed. Many a well-trained man has died while trying to clear a FTF or FTE. In my experience, nearly all of mine have occured in autos, be it pistol or rifle. And I have even had some problems with lever actions. The most dependable, beyond the single-shot, have always seemed to be the bolt action and the no-frills pump.<br><br>I even had a revolver, with *heavy* loads, lock up on me once. Now that shocked the s**t out of me.<br><br>Personally, I have always *loved* that certain sound made by a racked pump. No mistaking it; and it seems to send a universally-understood message... :-)<br><br>Prospector<br>

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#7992 - 08/11/02 05:51 AM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Anonymous
Unregistered


For a self-loading handgun, your choices are limited to 9mm >Luger, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.<br><br>Does this mean my .40 S&W in my Kimber is not made anymore. I just bought it! And what about that 10mm my partner carries? And there are more...<br><br>that was "edit copied edit pasted" out of your post<br><br>What do you mean by "Does this mean my .40 S&W in my kimber is not made anymore." <br><br>lol i dont get it!<br><br>he did menchin .40 S&W<br><br>Have you seen Magnum Reseach's BFR? it has a .45/70 configuration! i shot a "bush gun" chambered in that caliber, and i only shot it ONCE. no more. that gun is tooo scary lol. (i was 11 at the time)<br><br>i also got to shoot a Desert Eagle chambered in .50 AE, and once again, i only shot it ONCE! big heavy gun with a nasty kick (again, 11 years old 110 lbs) !!<br>

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#7993 - 08/11/02 11:48 AM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Anonymous
Unregistered


Where is Mel Tappan now that people are asking the questions?

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#7994 - 08/11/02 01:51 PM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
<< Where is Mel Tappan now that people are asking the questions? >><br><br>LoL! He's dead - but you knew that. He was rather opinionated, wasn't he? Lousy printing job on his book "Survival Guns" - it's fallen to pieces on my bookshelf.

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#7995 - 08/11/02 02:57 PM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Ade Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 280
Tom,<br><br>I agree, lousy printing job. Mine fell apart too. That didn't keep people from borrowing it, though. Or keeping it, for that matter. The last person to borrow it still has it. I wish I could remember who it was.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

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#7996 - 08/11/02 05:14 PM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Anonymous
Unregistered


>that was "edit copied edit pasted" out of your post<br><br>>What do you mean by "Does this mean my .40 S&W in my >kimber is not made anymore." <br><br>>lol i dont get it!<br><br>>he did menchin .40 S&W<br><br>You are correct, of course. My fingers were faster than my brain. That happens when one gets old... :-)<br><br>>Have you seen Magnum Reseach's BFR? it has a .45/70 >configuration! i shot a "bush gun" chambered in that caliber, >and i only shot it ONCE. no more. that gun is tooo scary lol. (i >was 11 at the time)<br><br>My shooting buddy/gun dealer is trying to get me into the 45-70 black powder cart. thingy with a Sharps single shot. He wants to build a 1,000 yard range on my property. Hell, i can't see a 1,000 yards anymore, much less see the gong that far away. Besides, I don't think my shoulder would take the pounding from the 45-70 anymore; even with black powder loadings.<br><br>>i also got to shoot a Desert Eagle chambered in .50 AE, and >once again, i only shot it ONCE! big heavy gun with a nasty >kick (again, 11 years old 110 lbs) !!<br><br>Not my cup of tea. Just too much recoil for comfort. I would develope a built-in flinch that would guarantee missing the target.<br><br>I have a 50 yard and 100 yard shooting range in my back yard. I am quite content on making my next, and probably final, gun acquisitions within the next month, and happily just spend my *gun* time playing with loads for them. That would, hopefully, be a Rolling Block single shot rifle, and a Schofield *breaktop* pistol from Navy Arms; both in .45 Long Colt. Nice, soft, short-range shooting. If I want to hit something at a 1,000 yards I'll buy a Cruise missle... ;-)<br><br>Prospector<br>

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#7997 - 08/11/02 05:23 PM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
Anonymous
Unregistered


>>LoL! He's dead - but you knew that. He was rather opinionated, wasn't he? Lousy printing job on his book "Survival Guns" - it's fallen to pieces on my bookshelf.<<<br><br>Well, yes, I kniew that. :-). <br><br>Having been accused of being over-opinionated myself, I may not be a good judge- but I don't remember reading any well-known gun writer that wasn't pretty opinionated. That perception might depend on whether you agree with the opinions expressed or not. Those we agree with seem remarkably objective, somehow. ;-)<br><br>Funny, my copy is still very useable, though a bit ragged. Pretty dated now, unfortunately. Lately I've been paying more attention to what he said about the survival value of airguns.<br><br>Interestingly, another book of his, "Tappan on Survival" (same printing quality) bears a forward by Jerry Pournelle, onetime columnist for Byte magazine and co-author of "Lucifer's Hammer" (among many others, of course) which gets mentioned here from time to time.<br><br>The Tappan-Pournelle/Niven connection leads pretty directly to Heinlein, and through Steve Barns, then Dan Inosanto, to Bruce Lee. Six degrees of separation and all that. Just trivia.

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#7998 - 08/11/02 08:58 PM Re: Emergencies and Firearms
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Mmm... Tappan - It's still interesting to browse through once in a while. The perfect binding fell apart on my copy. I didn't say, but I don't disagree with most of what he wrote. It's a broad topic and what's suitable one place may or may not not be another, eh? There have been some interesting refinements in available ammunition and some tweaks to hardware - and changes in US law - since he wrote "Survival Guns", but over all it's still an interesting book. Kinda hard to find a BM-59 these days... anyway, pulling TEOTWAWKI scenarios out of the discussion for the moment, there are many acceptable choices that can cover a broad range of situations/preferences. One of the reasons I didn't feel like kicking out a list of hardware for Barb & husband to consider...<br><br>I hooked up with air rifles many, many years ago. Started way back when I was a competitive pistol shooter; got a nice Winchester (aka Diana) barrel - cocking .177 pistol for additional practice back in my room. (Just couldn't swing the cost of that Walther!). <br><br>I guess it was actually earlier than that - I have an original first-type Sheridan 5mm pneumatic that I shot a truck load of squirrels with over the years (distant menories of some tasty suppers...). Had a complete factory overhaul (Racine, Wisconsin, IIRC) done on it in the late 60s - no charge, came back like new, and if I ever wanted to sell it to them... (Benjamin bought them out since then). Of course, I'm not old enough to have been the first owner of that Sheridan... anyway, a couple of RWS barrel-cockers see regular use here. One is the smaller one for kids (M24???) and mine have pretty much outgrown it now. The other is the top-line barrel-cocker they sell - M36? Have to check. Mine never chronographed as high as they claim (1,000 fps), but it's measurably more accurate than my buddy's less expensive version of the same power plant that DOES chronograph at a tic over 1,000 fps. Target pellets give me about 900+ fps and Silver Bears about 830 fps. The lay of the ground in my back yard makes it difficult to shoot more than 60 yards, but that's plenty of range.<br><br>Now, I've owned and used the RWS M3x since, oh, maybe 81 or 82, and it's been a ton of fun with no fuss. Other than a few obnoxious pre-dawn crows, it's been used for target practice exclusively - mostly very small reactive targets at extended ranges (for an air rifle). I wound up putting a 'scope on it about 10 years ago and I liked it so much that it stays on all the time. I should build up a peep sight that I like, but... anyway, never a lick of trouble until my nephew was shooting it one afternoon. It seems that he was closing the barrel with the same force that he had to use to cock the action spring... arrrgh! slightly bent barrel! Who would have thought... I should have instructed him more closely. But that got me to thinking about it. This winter I'll either take it to RWS for service (2 hour drive from here for the North America service center) or straighten it myself, BUT I think I'll put a sleeve on the outside of the barrel to stiffen it. No taper on the barrel, so it'll be a simple job. Never been any other problems and the seals are all tip-top. Being lazy, I just buy the various lubricants and stuff from Beeman's and follow their general recommendations for lubricating. IOW, there's not much to maintain on them, unlike firearms. Not as many makers of the really good ones as there were 20 years ago, but there are plenty to choose from and there are more calibers available than there have ben since eary in the last century. Air rifles are a ton of fun on a budget.<br><br>Was aware of the other Tappan book but never saw a copy.<br><br>I lost you after Steve Barnes, but Inosanto sounds familiar for some reason - anyway, Bruce Lee??? I think I'm cultural deficient here - where's the connection to the earlier folks? Niven / Niven & Pournelle - great books. And Steve Barns has been a great addition to that crew IMHO. (Yes, I used to read Jerry in Byte as well - almost as interesting as the books.)<br><br>Broaden the confidence interval just a tic and it's less than 6 degrees - which covers a whole lot of "What a coincidence!" instances...

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