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#79351 - 12/07/06 02:34 PM Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone ping.
brandtb Offline
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Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 505
Loc: S.E. Pennsylvania
Can anyone expand on this? As I understand it, their cell phone was not able to be used to make a call because it was out of range of a tower, but a tower did get a 'ping.' What's the story?

Would a makeshift wire extension on the cell phone have extended its range?
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#79352 - 12/07/06 04:44 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
harrkev Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/05/01
Posts: 384
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Cell phones generally send out data ever so often (ever few seconds, I believe) that says "I am here." This is to let the cell towers know where the cell is. What happens in a city is that the phone will ping, and the surrounding cell towers will listen and compare notes. The phone is then instructed to communicate with the strongest (clostest) tower.

In this case, it would appear that one single ping was able to, by chance, get through. But it was not reliable enough to get a conversation going.
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#79353 - 12/07/06 08:51 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
JCWohlschlag Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 724
Loc: Sterling, Virginia, United Sta...
This also reminds me of Doug's advice that during a widespread disaster, you my not be able to have a voice conversation, but a text message will still go through.

I've never tried this myself, but perhaps one could attempt to send a text message in these circumstances. Perhaps some cellphones are actually smart enough to keep retrying until they get a good enough signal to send through the entire databurst.
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“Hiking is just walking where it’s okay to pee. Sometimes old people hike by mistake.” — Demitri Martin

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#79354 - 12/07/06 09:43 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Quote:
This also reminds me of Doug's advice that during a widespread disaster, you my not be able to have a voice conversation, but a text message will still go through.
But who do you send it to? I called two dispatch centers (county and state) and neither could accept a 911 text message. . .dohh. So if a 911 dispatch can't handle text, who do you send it to? My intent is to send it to a relative out of state who can then call 911 for me on a land line.
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#79355 - 12/07/06 09:46 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone ping.
MissouriExile Offline
dedicated member

Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 125
Loc: SW Missouri / SE Wisconsin
Don't know about the wire but I do know that climbing to higher ground helps a lot.

Jon

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#79356 - 12/07/06 10:09 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
JCWohlschlag Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 724
Loc: Sterling, Virginia, United Sta...
That would be my plan as well. Text message a relative or friend with a sit-rep, a location, and instructions then wait to see if it ever goes through.
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“Hiking is just walking where it’s okay to pee. Sometimes old people hike by mistake.” — Demitri Martin

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#79357 - 12/08/06 04:22 AM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
The cell tower's controller also looks at your signal strength. If it isn't high enough, it decides you aren't worth it's time because you are too far away and according to it's programming, you probably have another tower near you that can actually pick up the signal. I wasn't aware of them logging that, though, so I'm suprised by that (happily).

As for extending the antenna, that would improve your ability to receive, but transmitting, with the power levels of a cell phone, I don't know. I doubt it, because you are putting out less than a watt IIRC.
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When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#79358 - 12/08/06 05:13 AM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
beadles Offline
Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 105
Loc: Richardson, TX
Let me expound a bit on Ironraven's msg. In any digital system, your phone is transmitting all the time, talking to the cells it can hear, and helping determine which is the best cell to talk to.

This information is also used by the network to figure out where calls to your phone need to be routed. Otherwise, calls to you from an external number would never be delivered to you. In your network, there's a server called an HLR, or home location register. This is a database that holds all of your network and account information. When you leave your home network and move to another network, your local information is stored in a VLR, or visitor location register. The interaction between the HLR and VLR are used to figure out how to get a call to you.

This stuff is updated all the time, but ordinarily nobody would be looking at it. The carrier would have to have the engineering staff draw logs from the VLR database (probably manually), figure out what sector on what cell on what switch that was, then go get the radio propagation maps to figure out what that cell and sector was covering. Then they'd know where to look.

An external antenna is absolutely a help. Antenna gain is the same whether you are transmitting or receiving, and every 6dB of gain gives you a doubling in range.

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John Beadles, N5OOM
Richardson, TX

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#79359 - 12/08/06 07:23 AM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone ping.
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Cell phones use UHF frequencies. UHF is line of sight. The higher your altitude, the greater range of your line of sight.
You can go to any C.B. shop (usually located near truck stops) and find adapters for most cell phones & external antennas. You can also find co-axial extensions in the 10' & 20' lengths to get your antenna up to a higher altitude while you stay on the ground.
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#79360 - 12/08/06 01:52 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone ping.
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
My understanding was that they identified the cell that had the last known contact with their cell phone and used that location for the start of the search area.

A friend at work used to work for Motorola, and he said that the only way to get a ping from their cell phone would have been to fly a helicopter below the ridgeline to avoid other cell phone traffic at a distance, and then to listen for the individual ping of the cell phone with a higly directional antenna. Once detected, they'd need to get the ping in at least two other locations in an attempt to triangulate the location of the source (the car).

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#79361 - 12/08/06 01:59 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone ping.
brandtb Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 505
Loc: S.E. Pennsylvania
An external antenna is absolutely a help. Antenna gain is the same whether you are transmitting or receiving, and every 6dB of gain gives you a doubling in range.

--------------------------

Assuming you do not have an after-market antenna, how would you field engineer one from wire you took from your car's electrical system? Assume the cell phone was the kind with the inch-long stub antenna sticking out the top.
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#79362 - 12/08/06 02:21 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Unless you know what you're doing, you could make it worse.

My thought would be to generate a text message to someone or maybe to 911 and someone else (for relay to 911) and maybe try flying the phone on a kite. Leave the cellphone antenna as is and just het the phone higher. Whenever it makes contact it should send the message. Much more reliable than a continuing conversation with a 911 operator who may not have a capability to read your position anyway.
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#79363 - 12/08/06 02:28 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone ping.
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
Most Cell phones have a small rubber plug somewhere that when removed exposed an external antenna connector. My current phone had two rubber plugs so I poeed them off and one covered a screw and the other an antenna connector. I tried extending the phones antenna before and had no luck but that was before I discovered the antenna cpnnector on the side so next time I'm out of tower range I plan to try it out. The connector is very small, single strand of wire small.

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#79364 - 12/08/06 03:12 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
A VERY interesting thought - raising the cell phone up a tree. I never thought about that.

I've heard of GMRS and Ham radio users lofting an external antenna up a tree - same thing!! Height is everything.

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#79365 - 12/08/06 03:53 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
harrkev Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/05/01
Posts: 384
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Quote:
Most Cell phones have a small rubber plug somewhere that when removed exposed an external antenna connector.
That was more true in the past, but is less common now. As cell phones cover more and more of the country, there is less need for an external antenna. If nobody uses the feature, the cell phone manufacturers can save a few bucks and some space by leaving the connector off. I am not saying that you can't find one. But, if you do not specifically look for that when you go shopping, you probably won't get one.

My last phone, Motorola Nextel i95c had a connector. My latest, Motorola Nextel i560, does not. I am getting a new Sprint phone in a day or two, but I doubt that it would have a connector.

Note that there are external antennas that clip onto your existing antenna, or velcro to the back of your phone. These would obviously not work great, but probably a lot better than nothing.

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Darwin was wrong -- I'm still alive

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#79366 - 12/09/06 12:35 AM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
I was surprised that mine did, maybe because I always try to get tri-mode phones (analog support) since my parents are out where digital signals don't reach but my less than one year old camera phone has it. I checked a couple other phones at my office and they had them too.
I've noticed that there are a lot of times I'll loose signal in a valley and get it on top of the mountain so hiking to a high point could aid in getting a call or text message out in an emergency.

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#79367 - 12/09/06 01:36 AM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone p
AROTC Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
All this talk about cell phones has really reinforced my decision to get in to HAM. A small radio (bigger then a cellphone, but much smaller then a large police walkietalkie) can solve most of the problems people are discussing with cell phones. Under normal circumstances, cellphones are the most convienent and efficient way to use a radio. But in an emergency, either a break down of society's support system or a personal crisis in the boonies, the HAM radio gives you far more options. People are talking about attaching external antennas to cellphones. HAMs are already set up to work with external antennas. You can throw a piece of wire up in a tree and talk around the world, literally. You can use HAM radios to tie into the phone system and dial like a cell phone if you can hit someone's repeater. You can relay a message through other HAMs since emergency traffic takes priority and is one of the reasons amatuer radio exists.

I'll be taking my HAM license test after Christmas and I can tell you its probably less difficult then getting your first drivers license. There are a lot of HAMs in emergency responce groups, just look up ARES or RACES. I'm surprised more people on this board aren't HAMs. Take a look at it, HAM is a great solution to alot of these communication questions. Even compared to cellphones and to some extent PLBs, I think HAM takes the cake. PLBs are great if you are incapacitated, once you set it off it will keep calling long after you can. But with HAM, they can still triangulate your position (in fact there's a foxhunt style game HAMs play based on this) plus if you have any special needs you can report them to rescuers. It makes it real easy to say "We have someone with diabetes who needs insulin." Another benefit is that with a PLB you don't know if anyone has heard it, with a HAM radio, you can talk to your rescuers before they arrive. And that morale boost is a great benefit.
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A gentleman should always be able to break his fast in the manner of a gentleman where so ever he may find himself.--Good Omens

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#79368 - 12/15/06 12:39 PM Re: Followup on the James Kim thread: Cell phone ping.
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
http://www.instructables.com/tag/type:instructable/?sort=RANDOM&limit=15&offset=45

The only hard part is finding a connector that will fit the cell phone antenna connector, its tiny.
If you carry a business grade laptop chances are there is a wifi antenna inside it and the connectors from it to the internal wireless card are close enough to work and usually you can get to those by just removing the keyboard.

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