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#76539 - 11/10/06 01:33 PM Sheltering in place
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
I laughed when I first read the "Crisis Relocaion Plan" for NYC in the event of an expected nuclear attack upon that city. With all the Fallout Sheters stripped of air handling equipment and all of the other supplies, I decided then that I would have to provide shelter for my family and friends.
I have decided to use my garage for the shelter since gamma & neutron radiation is released at the time of NUDET, it is primarily Alpha & Beta partices that must be shielded against. That is a rather simple exercise. I store food, water, sanitation, galley, communications, etc. in the garage. I provide additional shielding with bookshelves full of books, wood, and metallic spare parts. The only other main problem is when rain showers will be bringing down the deadlier stuff prior to its complete decay.
I plan to keep people busy with communications watches, giving/receiving instructions in a classroom setting, and other collateral duties spread around to everyone. Every night, one or more will have a morale event to host/provide.
My garage is already laid out to be converted quickly to this purpose. Power is provided by a bicycle -powered generator with a gas powered generator as a backup. Air supply & co2 removal will be achieved by an electric powered squirrel cage and a hand-powered 2 cubic foot manual air pump.
My largest problem evolves around competent medical assistance. I have some who can qualify as a basic medic & I have some nurses that may or may not make it to the shelter.
Stick holes in my plans, what have I overlooked? What suggestions can be offered?
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#76540 - 11/10/06 03:07 PM Re: Sheltering in place
Craig_phx Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 715
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I'd like to see pictures of your garage.
_________________________
Thermo-regulate, hydrate and communicate.

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#76541 - 11/10/06 03:45 PM Re: Sheltering in place
BrianTexas Offline
Ordinary Average Guy
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 304
Loc: North Central Texas, USA
Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an "electric-powered squirrel cage?"'

I'd also add some simple forms of entertainment to keep busy. A few decks of cards, some simple board games/jigsaw puzzles and coloring books w/crayons will keep kids and adults busy and reduce tension. I just remember being snowed in with the family when growing up and that entertainment kept us sane during the 2-3 days being cooped up.

Some comfort foods might go a long way to improving morale. I'd store several boxes of favorite cookies/snacks/candy along with the usual freeze-dried rations.

Best of Luck to you! Sounds like a great idea...
_________________________
Also known as BrianEagle. I just remembered my old password!

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#76542 - 11/10/06 06:33 PM Re: Sheltering in place
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
1st question was: "What is an electric-powered squirrel cage?" It is a 110VAC motor hooked to a "squirrel cage fan"-imagine the little wheel that hamsters run on, in their cages, with small vanes that cause air to be sucked into the center and forced out through the sides, funneled into the outflow piping to the room.
The 2nd question: I am not inclined to publish photos & it wouldn't do any good because my garage is not in the "shelter mode" It is in a "NORMAL" use mode that is laid out to be quickly converted, in about 6 hrs to the shelter mode.
I first remove un-needed equipment into the house, move bookshelves against 1 garage door, move 3 beds into the garage (along the right wall). Install 2 1/2 sheets of 3/4"plywood across the front of each garage door & seal all cracks & joints with silicon. Go up to the attic & spread all the wood, boxes of things, etc over the attic floor above the garage. Go to the roof and place garbage bags over all vents, openings, & a/c's. Seal up all openings around the house. Install 3/4" prepared plywood sheets over the 2 garage windows. 1 garage window has openings w/piping installed, seal around the sides. Connect air filter and co2 outlet (with flapper valve) to exterior and run wire supports. Run antenna coaxials/wiring through the wire run piping. Use paper & silicon to seal exterior piping openings. Install antennas onto 2" PVC piping to raise antennas, Run wire supports. Run air conduits inside of the garage for the incoming air to the air pump, install the co2 removal piping from 1/4" above the floor to the outlet connection. The toilet is set up w/a porta-potty, a tall storage cabinet, & a curtain in the far righ corner. Comms/Intel/small work bench are arranged along the front wall. Common area of couch, chairs, & coffee table are in the center. Food storage and the galley are along the left garage door. Lighting is from 6volt pigtail lamps & solar powered lamps. I have regular lamps that run off of car batteries (on workbench shelves). I have a bicycle powered generator (puts out 110VDC) & a gas powered generator (5000 watts) as a backup (on the back porch). The water is stored along the left wall & provides additional shielding until used.
3rd question: Someone is appointed daily to run the nightly morale event (entertainment and recreation). Classes are held everyday during the day and someone is given a subj the day before, to teach the next day.
Last note: Everything is written down in a plan. I have 3 continguency plans in force & my wife & daughter know where they are. They pick the plan that best suits the situation! I will use a KFM to monitor fallout levels
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#76543 - 11/10/06 09:41 PM Re: Sheltering in place
Micah513 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 178
Loc: Springfield, MO
Quote:
Go up to the attic & spread all the wood, boxes of things, etc over the attic floor above the garage.


Have you done a test run of this? A lot of attics in garages aren't that sturdy because they have to span such a wide distance & aren't built with the load bearing expectation.

Might want to make sure all the MASS for absorbing the fallout won't make you ceiling cave in.

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#76544 - 11/10/06 11:00 PM Re: Sheltering in place
DBAGuy Offline
dedicated member

Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 165
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
BTW, I agree with your plans for the vast majority of 'problems'. This is what I expect to do also. However, I am in an area that wouldnt get just fallout <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (think Cheyenne Mountain)

That possibility is quite low on my reasons to prepare in any case.
_________________________
ZOMBIES! I hate ZOMBIES.

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#76545 - 11/11/06 12:29 AM Re: Sheltering in place
bubbajoe Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 10/29/05
Posts: 72
Loc: PA. USA
I AM NOT AN EXPERT!!! please take what i say with the intention that i want to help and learn. that said i have a few questions

why choose silicon? I keep cans of that expanding foam crack insulation on hand. it expands to something like 10 times it size filling all space in a crack. and its fast to apply and dries quick. is there something about silicon that would act as a better sheilding?
where is the toilet vented to?
the water that is used as additional shieding. is this the water your going to drink?
i belong to a few other forums and we basicly descibe our set ups and then let the others find all the holes. so we can fill them <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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#76546 - 11/11/06 12:51 AM Re: Sheltering in place
bubbajoe Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 10/29/05
Posts: 72
Loc: PA. USA
I 'm no expert or anything close to being one. I think you have a sound plan. can i give you my 2 cents worth.

use the expanding foam insulation that comes in a can to fill the cracks. it exspands to somthing like 10 times it size . its easy and fast to use and dries faster than silicon. (homedepot)

i wouldn't use the drinking water as added sheidling.

where is the toilet vented to?

in the other forums we do the same thing. descibe our set ups and let the rest point out the holes so we can fix them. i like the squirrel cage it moves alot of air.


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#76547 - 11/11/06 04:41 AM Re: Sheltering in place
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
In answer to some of the suggestions offered thus far:
The water is safe from irradiation as long as it is sealed up. Canned food is not safe from irradiation because of chemical changes that are caused by the radioactive interaction with natural sugars.
The toilet is not vented because it is a porta-potty with a sealed reservoir, except for when it is being flushed. When the holding tank is full, I'll dump it in the toilet next to the garage. There is no venting there either until we can air out the house. We keep air freshener/deodorizer/disinfectant in sufficient quantities to help belay the health hazards with this system. It is far from a perfect solution but it is workable.

Keep the thoughts flowing so we may all perfect our own plans.

For anyone living near ground zero, find a deep cave, mine, or an old fallout shelter that you can get access to when it matters.
Always remember that the last thing one must do is bend over & kiss your butt goodby, while you still have the chance,,,just in case!

The best luck is what you make yourself
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#76548 - 11/11/06 04:52 AM Re: Sheltering in place
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Another couple of comments, I hadn't even thought about the foam although I have about 3 cans on hand in my "Conversion" equipment box. I think I'll get a few more cans of the foam--Thanks for the input.
The weight of the shielding materials in the attic are already up there. The weight is too little to be a problem in this case. The amount of shielding is minor and is more of a case of redistributing existing materials in a different manner so as to provide a little extra protection. I hadn't actually considered this aspect and you have given me a reason to look at the attic from a fresh POV. I'm still safe! Thanks!!!
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#76549 - 11/13/06 12:04 AM Re: Sheltering in place
Fallshirmjager Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 42
Here is something to consider;

Most private garages in West Germany have a grease pit in the floor, where a person would stand to service the vehicle from underneath, even in areas where zoning prohibits owners from washing and servicing vehicles at their residence.

My landlord in those days did his best to explain gamma radiation and slit trench protection, but back in the cold war days, we GIs thought we were cannon fodder anyway, so I didn't pay a lot of attention.

A grease pit would be handy to service a vehicle from, provide protective cover, make a room within a room, secure storage, serve as a changing room, latrine, operating room, or morgue.

Shucks, I talked myself into it. I'll go rent a concrete saw tomorrow, fire up the backhoe, and start building forms for steps and walls.

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#76550 - 11/13/06 07:05 AM Re: Sheltering in place
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I was under the impression that metal can absorb radiation and hold it. I also understood that the density of your protection from radiation was important. Back in the '50s, they advised having a lot of books or stacked newspapers overhead.

Where is your fresh air coming from? Is it filtered?

I have a medium-sized PortaPotty for camping, and found out that during a flood (water filled the septic tank), it would fill up in 24 hrs with 3 people. One of the problems was the flushing, which helped to fill it. One solution to this can probably be found in the online book (but it's in print as well) The Humanure Handbook by Joseph Jenkins. You can read the whole thing online (drawings and photos included) at http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html and it will answer all the questions that you can come up with. This guy has been using the method for at least 20 years. The main point is that I have tried it myself, and there is NO odor. Absolutely none.

It sounds like you've put a lot of good thinking into this plan. But I hope you never need it.

Sue

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#76551 - 11/14/06 12:41 AM Re: Sheltering in place
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
you are correct Susan but there are clarifiers. The different kinds of radiaton are:
Alpha: 1-3" rng/stopped by paper
Beta: 10-30' rng/stopped by tight woven clothing
Gamma: several 100 yds rng/14 half-life shield thicknesses (by my calculations)
Neutron: 30 miles?/28 half-life thicknesses (by my calculations)
Most of the "bad" radioactive elements will be dead (isotopes) by the time they fall back to earth. Radioactive levels decay "on a bell curve"
It is not the TEOTW as the no-nuke kooks make it out to be.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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