First, for those who still care, no word yet on DD2.

Now for the reason of my post: how do y'all wash dishes while out camping? We just got back from a 3 day/2 night trip and I ran into a problem. We weren't allowed to dump waste water on the ground where we were at so I was limited to how much water I could use to clean the dishes. I ended up just boiling everything with a minimum of water and scraping out any solids. Nobody got sick, but I didn't really like this method.

Back in the scouts we had a big "lobster pot" we kept on the fire boiling away, but that wasn't possible at this site. When I'm by myself is just a steel cup. This time it was the family + others which led to a lot more dishes (actual eating was done with plasticware and paperplates all of which came back to civilization.

Any suggestions? I stuck this in the survival forum because I thought it would apply to people bugging out.

Thanks.
-Blast

If you weren't allow to dump it on the ground, were you told what you could do with it? Were you near a water source? What did they have as toilet facilities, a hole-in-the-ground privy, or a contained unit? If it was a privy, I would have considered dumping it there. Why draw a line between gray water and black water if you're letting black water enter the ecosystem? <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The only thing that comes to mind is to take an empty 5-gallon jug or bucket with a tight-fitting lid (and one of those bucket openers), and dump it all in there, and empty it at an RV dump site (or take it home).

If you are cooking over a fire, you can cheat.

While the item is still dirty, drop in a bit of wood ash and enough clean water to make a paste, scrubbing with a bit of paper towl or rag. The lye in the ash will mix with any fat in there to form soap. Scrape slurry out, rinse with fresh water.

Otherwise, while things are still freshly dirty, wipe out with paper towel or TP, and as little clean water is possible. Pour it into a seperate container. That goes into the latrine. If it has a chance to dry, or worse, burn on, a bit of green scrubby works wonders so long as you aren't packing anything teflon (which should never need it in the first place).

Don't know how applicable it is to survival or long-term camping, but when backpacking I often limit my cooking to boiling water and adding it to various dried foods.

If you pack the food in a ziplock bag, add the water to the bag, then eat from the bag, you can avoid dishwasing all together.

Bear

Cowboys never "washed" their cooking gear, instead they cleaned them by rubbing everything down with sand.

I have been camping all of my life (and that is a lot of years, and a lot of camping trips), and I have never seen a campground that would not allow dumping dish water. Many campgrounds even have a grey water dumping site in each campsite, or at least centrally located. Have to give this some thought, but right off the top of my head, the privy, or your five gal can thing are all that come to mind...

I wonder if there was a problem bear or bears in the area. If that were the case I'd be leery of dumping water that was heavily laden with food particles.

Could be. If any nearby bears were hard up enough to want to dig into waste water for little bitty chunks of scrambled egg, I would be worrying about my main food supply too. Even in Yoseite and Sequoia Natioal Parks, where the bears are notorious for food scrounging, they don't prohibit grey water dumping (at least not as of my last visit, which admittedly has been a couple of years)...

Most of the food remnants can be wiped out of the container with a paper towel, which is then burned.

From what I understand, the 'washing dishes with sand' is just an old tale. It's not going to take the grease off, and guess what rancid grease is going to cause? Yep. Cowboys were hard workers, and they couldn't take time off every twenty minutes for a bout of diarrhea.

Sue

We were at private campgrounds attached to the Texas Renaissance Festival. For eight weekends in a row 1,000+ people descend on to this land and set up there camps helter skelter (no designated plots). Most arrive and set up after dark as they worked that day. The management got sick of people complaining when they discovered the next morning that they had pitched their tents on top of some else's food goo. Management's response: no dumping any waste water on the ground. You can walk around the campgrounds with nothing but a chainmal loincloth, a Scottish claymore and large bottle of rum and the cops won't bother you. But if they see you spit your toothpaste onto the ground you can get tossed out. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dumping the water in the portapotties is one possiblity, but from a hygiene point of view that has it's own riskes. I'm pretty sure Monday morning a crew comes by and just burns the johns down rather than tries cleaning them up! They are pretty nasty.

Anyway, that's why I posted the question. I was hoping someone might have a neat trick. if not I'll go with the wiping the pots out, rinse with boiling water then burn the paper towel.

-Blast

What do you do with the formerly boiled water? Do you throw that on the ground?

My suggestion is to wipe the gear to the point of looking clean with paper towel (or even a wet paper towel). Then wash in a plastic tub with warm soapy water (I use Dawn, which is more environmentally friendly than many). Then rinse in a tub with clean hot water. Then rinse in a tub with coolish water with a caoful of bleach added (1.5 teaspoons/gallon). Let dishes soak in the chlorine water for a few minutes if possible.

Now here's the trick. Take a 5 gallon plastic bucket. Drill a few fairly small holes in the bottom of the bucket. Set the bucket on the ground off to the side. When done doing dishes, pour the soapy water into the bucket. Then pour the rinse water into the soapy water tub, swirl, and then pour that into the bucket. Now pour the bleach water into the rinse tub, swirl, then into the soap tub, swirl, and then into the bucket.

If you pre-wipe the dishes well, the water in the bucket is really quite clean and shouldn't have any food particles.

Let the bucket sit for a few hours and the water will magically disappear. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> The other nice thing about this is that putting all of the water together dilutes both the soap and the bleach down to 1/3 the original volume, which helps a bit (not that I'd want to drink it). Place the bucket in a new location each time you do this.

As for what to do with toothbrushing spit ... don't spit. Put just a liiiiitle tiny dab of toothpaste on the brush, brush, swallow, get a mouthful of water, rinse, swallow. No spitting.

Our dishwater got dumped in our personal portaprivy and absorbed by the kitty litter it contained. I like the "magic bucket" idea better. That'll probably make an appearance at next year's TRF.

Oh, and as far as brushing our teeth, let's just say our personas were very accurate as far as the 16th century goes. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

-Blast

I use the bare minimum in "dishes". Pot and insulated cup. I lick clean, then boil enough water to make a cup of tea and drink the mixed leftovers. You might want to strain the solids if they don't work the the tea - I don't generally have a problem.
Who needs to toss out the grey water?
Who needs soap?
Who needs a pot scrubber?
Who needs to waste or pollute?

Here's an idea - with research.

http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?req...amp;amp;page=94

Good find. I just forwarded the page to some of the animals that attend the annual walleye pilgrimage.

If you're going to cheat anyway, us a bit of soap/detergent rather than screwing around w/ sahes. Eliminate the middle man.
As for the "dangers" of teflon, just be sure to wear your tinfoil hat.

"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."

Marduk,

You da' man!!! That'll be perfect.

Thanks,
-Blast

It isn't the dangers of teflon I'm worried about. I'm worried about taking the teflon off with the green scrubby.

The first time I washed a teflon pot, it was one my mother had used. This is the woman who can burn water, despite being a decent cook. In an act that can be best discribed as "Pavlovian", I might have reached for the copper wool..... I had to buy her a new pot. And I got all the old, non-teflon pots and pans as she upgraded. (Including the old cast iron stuff- wooh-who!)

*tries to picture Blast in a chainmail loincloth, with a claymore and rum*

*pictures self in black great kilt, broadsword, one hand holding scotch and the other spiced mead*

Not sure which image is scarier. :P

Actually, I've heard through the grape vine that santiation has been a constant bugaboo for the organizers of the TRF. I guess the first couple of years, some people actually did get sick, and they've had to clamp down hard to get any kind of insurance at all.

Alas, no chainmail this year. I went as a silk road caravan master armed with a small kukhri. You can see pictures up on my blog. The unfortunate display of nothing but rum, claymore and loincloth was seen on a man who, shall we say, was well prepared for any potential famine or cold weather. (thick coating of body hair and pushing 300+ lbs) <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> He seemed very happy though and that's the main thing.

-Blast

p.s. Oh yeah, and my drink of choice is a brandy. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

p.p.s. Okay Ironraven, now show a picture of you.

STOP IT!!!!!! YOU'RE SCARING THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!

My group used the system in the conclusion while on an 18-day trip rafting the Grand Canyon. It worked beautifully and is quite simple once you’ve done it.

Because so many people play in the Canyon, you have to pack everything out for impact reasons. This means every tiny scrap of food. The ecosystem is so dry, even the smallest bits will take months or even years to decompose. Not to mention discouraging critters from becoming a nuisance.

Once you’re done cleaning the dishes, strain the water from the first bowl into your disposal destination. From there, pour bowl 2 into bowl 1 for a rinse, then strain it into your disposal. Continue this process on down the line until all three bowls are clean and disinfected… just like your dishes. It may sound complicated, but it’s really not.

Because you strain all water before disposal, food scraps are contained and easily packed out. On the river, we kept all our garbage in large ammo cans (rocket box) lined with a garbage bag or two.

And that is why I don't post MY picture. I'm immune to the effects of this thing I have hanging in front of my brain, but I've been known to make small children nervous.

And that isn't just becuase my stomach growls and they wonder if I'm going to eat them.

*tries to remove image of this from brain with imaginary gasoline.

This article suggests use of:
1. Soapy Water
2. Bleach Solution
3. Plain Water

The problem with this is that the third bucket, if not VERY carefully managed can run a risk of contaminating the disinfected utensils - either through contaminated tubs, water, or accidental reverse use of tubs (this happens a lot with Boy Scouts).

My recommendation (and that of many state & local health departments and the Boy Scouts of America) is to use:
1. Warm Soapy Water
2. Warm Rinse Water
3. Lukewarm - not cold - Bleach Solution (min 1.5 teaspoons/gallon 70-90F water) for 2 minutes
4. Air Dry on sanitized surfaces or in mesh dunk bags (don't wipe dry - it would add yet another chance of recontamination)

Once dry there will be no residual chlorine or associated odor. Upon drying the chlorine will convert to a gas that dissipates into the air.

Yes, I know many feel that use of a bleach solution is overkill, but this is a simple way to prevent cross-contamination of utensils (fecal matter from unwashed or insufficiently washed hands, cold & flu germs, etc...).

What!!!

I don't get it? Marduk's solution still produces a waste stream. How can this be any different from the original problem?

Unless I missed something, the only way I know of for doing camp cooking using pots, pans and utensils without leaving a waste stream is to take my two biggest cast iron pots and use one as a scrub pot and one as a disinfecting pot. This is necessary to clean utensils only. Once I am done cleaning and disinfecting the utensils, then I cook off all the liquid and scorch off the residue until is all ash or volatized out. This makes the pots unusable as cooking items until I can get them re-seasoned again, but it leaves no liquid waste stream whatsoever. I've done this using wood fires as well as portable gas stoves, and it is safe, effective and practical.

If utensils are not a concern, then it gets even easier. I just take the cast iron pots I use for cooking the food in and scorch out all the debtritous. The heat cleans the pot and disinfects it, and when it's done scorching it, then it is real easy to re-season the pot if needed.

I believe you'll find that this method was used to clean pots a lot more often than wiping them down with dirt back in the cowboy days. Most meals were eaten off the end of a two pronged fork or a knife blade, or just with the hands rather than fuss with plates and flatware, which didn't lend themselves to firecleaning like the big pots do. If you got beans, which were more common than just about anything else, it was usually in a cup, washed out with the coffee you drank at the end of the meal.

At least that's the way Grandad said it was for him most of the time. In fact, many was the time we'd have beans with lunch, and he'd slurp them out of an enameled cup just like he did on the range.

www.freezerbagcooking.com

Not a tale by any stretch! I learned it from an old WW II Pacific Theater Leatherneck. They perfected it under imposed "stealthy" conditions! Did it myself dozens of times. We used the best sand we could find with a clump of grass as a "scrubbie." When it's done right and thoroughly (Sarge would have it no other way!) you could damn near eat off 'em when you were finished! But then a quick soap wash, clean water rinse, followed by sterilizing tablet rinse (followed by air drying) - and you're good to go! Not much water and virtually all the food particles go with the sand into the fire. If we had no sterilizing solution then onto the end of a stick and into the fire for a few minutes. End result - sparkling dishes, use very little water, no food particles, healthy patrol! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would like to know who wouldn't let you dump grey water on the ground-he park rangers? I carry a couple of Brillo pads in my messkit for cleanups & a few bandana's for wiping up (among other purposes).

I frequently spend long periods in the AZ desert. This is a fragile ecosystem. In some places it has a concrete hard surface, but it is only a few inches thick. Water dumped on this surface will soften it and create a hole. The hole will remain for many many years. The seasonal rains will expand the hole. I suspect that the seasonal rains do not cause holes because the large amount of water immediatly runs off into the gullies (arroyos??) and usuall no pockets of water remain on the surface. Sounds odd, but that is what happens.

I have frequently been warned by various wardens, rangers, LEO's that to dump water is illegal as well as very damaging to the ecosystem.

Different places require different attitudes and protocols.

Benjammin,

Yes, Marduk's method still uses some water, but if I'm reading it right I can reuse the same water for the length of the stay (though being sure to maintain the -OCl concentration in the sterilization dip), then pack the water out or dump it in portapotty on my way out. This is better for me than creating new wash-water after every meal.

-Blast

This is the human sump method. If you lick clean your bowl and pot and let air dry, at the next meal you boil your cooking water in the pot and dip sanitize the bowls and spoons before using the water to hydrate your meal. This assumes dehayrated meals requiring only hot water for cooking.

I've never heard that term before. I just figure that if it's good enough to eat in the first place it's good enough to get cleaned up and consumed. Why waste any nutrients? Why add pollutants to the nearby stream or lake? I just saw my solution as being practical - to hell with urbanized conventions and ways of doing things. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I have to think that after a few cycles, that water is going to have a fair amount of grease/scum floating around on it. Not sure what that would do to the taste of subsequent meals prepared/served with stuff cleaned that way, but it would at least be safe. I suppose you could boil off most of the water at the end and have a lot less (maybe none) left to have to contend with.

With no water to cycle, I reckon the dutch oven method to be superior given the restrictions. Chemical treatment or boiling the washwater might disinfect it, but it won't do much to purify it. Now if you had a microscreen and a good reverse osmosis system, you could drink that water, no worries, when you were done processing it.