Seems like it's getting more difficult to get back in the groove at work - maybe my brain is fossilizing...? Got back late yesterday from a weekend out with the Venturing Crew (awesome nasty weather, those who stayed inside would say - we liked it). Today my brain is in slow motion at work... hard to come back into the office. Maybe delayed cabin fever - nah - winter is my favorite outdoor time anyway. Anyone else? Can't say I ever noticed it this bad before...<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Tom,<br><br><br>You're getting old. Get used to it. It beats the alternative. TIC :)<br><br>Andy

Andy - Being outdoors with the kids, er, "young people", seems more important than what I'm doing :-( At least, I'm certain I enjoy that more...<br><br>As for the rest of your remarks - saddle up, whippersnapper. Let's see if you can hang with this old guy for a few weeks <grin> (sure would be nice to take that much time out...)<br><br>Old Tom

Tom,<br><br>Whippersnapper? Been a long time since someone called me that. Who was it? My grandfather? Great-grandfather? :)<br><br>But, like I said sir, getting older beats the heck out of the alternative.<br><br>As for saddling up, and hanging with you...sounds like fun (there's no shame in being outdone by an old-timer BTDT--my father is a few years older than you, and he keeps going and going going...I can't keep up with him), but like yourself, I don't have the time. Pity.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Some thoughts:<br><br>1. That's why it's called work.<br><br>2. That's why your're paid to do it.<br><br>3. That's why you don't do it if you're not paid for it.<br><br>4. That's why Scouter's are paid what they are.<br><br>5. Almost anything is more fun than working.<br><br>6. At times like these, you just have to suck it up & do the job, take the money, & go home. (Rough paraphrase of late actor Arthur Treacher, sidekick of Merv Griffin)<br><br>Gentlemen, you may fire when ready.<br><br>John

Andy - Yeah, about the best I can spare this year is a week or so in the mountains... as for keeping up, I was kidding - forget it - takes too long to rid me of the dings now - "cost" of doing what I can do goes up (slowly). Desk job doesn't help (mood or otherwise).<br><br>Had a blast this past weekend anyway - I *think* I can at last slip out of the "carry some extra stuff in case __________ forgets xyz" mode. These kids are going to do just fine. What a diverse collection of gear! A universal shortcoming seems to be packable stoves - not a problem this past weekend; we were in an area with designated fire "rings" (and that's all - no grills or stuff - just a place) and they know how to manage with wood fires. But some future trips will press the issue - I have a number of ideas for them to explore - all simple and cheap (most could go buy a stove, but...)<br><br>Ahhh... looking forward to next weekend already - another opportunity to be outdoors with like-minded folks, although it will be to facilitate on a ropes course.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom<br><br>

You're probably already aware of it, but just in case:<br><br>http://wings.interfree.it/html/main.html<br><br>I wouldn't be surprised if I got this link from someone's posting on this list; if so, forgive the lack of credit. Interesting approaches to the stove issue. I haven't tried them myself, but I'm glad to see this sort of innovation going on.<br>

Yes, that's one source of information I am thinking of. There are few others generally along the same lines (with some duplication) and there are yet other approaches... some of which are strictly in my mind at this point (hope they don't get trapped there, LoL) Thanks. BTW, did you know he(she?) links to ETS? Go figure...

I made the Don "Photon" Johnson" stove that's linked from that site. I have to make the wid break and field test it though. I'm actually excited about doing that soon.<br><br>I used a threaded T-nut, without prongs, and an allen screw instead of the machine screw listed. The allen screw has a big knarled head, which I figured would be easier for me to use. I used J-B Weld Maximum to mount the T-nut to the stove.

Made the same stove, works well and is easy to fabricate. I used a 3/16 pop rivet and carefully punched the pin out and tapped for the screw, also used high temp silicone (red) instead of JB weld.

Your pop rivet is much lighter than my T-nut/allen screw solution. I assume you used an aluminum rivet. You might have even gotten by with one of those rivet washers (I can't think of the proper name right now). They're about 3/16" thick, which should be thick enough to tap and secure a screw thread. The key is get a seal on the filler hole so the vaporized alchohol doesn't escape though it.<br><br>I've never worked with high temp silicone. How does it compare? The J-B Weld is okay to work with. I used too much and the heat chars the excess. But the seals still hold so I'm not concerned with beauty!<br><br>Of course, we'll see how it truly performs in the field. Next month I'm taking a crew of High Advnture scouts into the woods for what will be a cross-country day hike (see Owasippe BioBlitz for moer info). I'll have my wind screen done by then so I can take the stove with to cook lunch or at least make some tea (how's that for a tie into another forum thread?). I'll post my experiences afterwards.

Yes i used an aluminum rivet with a brass screw, i think your talking about a backup plate for the washer. The silicone is just about as messy as JBweld, i used it because it was sitting there and i didn't want to have to look for the JB weld (it's in the garage somewhere).<br><br>I haven't really used it in the field mostly just to warm up lunch on the tailgate of the truck. It has worked very well and packs nicely into an msr pot (the one that the handle folds over the lid) along with the base, pot support, a small container of alcohol, and matches. The wind screen is several layers of heavy aluminum foil and i keep it wrapped around a can of soup.<br><br>I'm sure everyone else on your hike will want one just like your's;>)

That's it! backup plate. Do you think that would be thick enough to tap? The rivit you used and the T-nut I used have longer shafts that extend down into the stove cavety, which prevents one from filling it all the way. Although I suspect filling it all the way to the top would not be good anyway as there needs to be some headroom for the vaporized fuel. <br><br>I'm not an avid backpacker, so I didn't want to spend a fotune on titanium cook sets. I found an inexpensive aluminum set from Snowpeak. It called the Personal Cooker I and it sells for $12.95 plus S&H. It's not ideal, but seems to be functional (and the price was right. <br><br>I'm worried that the wire screen that supports the pot will scratch the heck out of the pot. So I was thinking of wrapping the edges with something. My first thought was duct tape, but I worry that the flames from the stove will burn it on the top edge (the bottom edge is far enough away to be okay. Any ideas?<br><br>For carrying the alchohol, I have my eye on recycling a small Stable (spelling?) bottle. Stable is the stuff you add to gasoline for small engines to keep it from gumming up the works (can you tell that I'm not a mechanic? <s>). It has a built in measuing chamber on the side that you can fill to a specific level by squeezing the main chamber. It seems to be an easy way to measure out fuel, and it's small enough to carry. But I wont use enough from my bottle to try it this season. I wrote to the manufacture some months ago about getting an empty one, but never received a reply.

I think that a backup plate would be sufficient for tapping threads into. I made a "practice" stove first just to see how it was going to work, used a drywall screw with no added reinforcement. Fired it half a dozen times and it worked just fine, but it was starting to get a little loose.<br><br>The wire on mine gets to hot for anything to be wrapped around the top, but i did file the edges of the wire so that all of the edges are smooth. It hasn't scratched the bottom of my pot but it's stainless which i believe the personal cooker 1 is also.<br><br>Didn't think of the stable bottle, it should work well. I used a two ounce flip top bottle because it packs well inside of the pot. A bottle that carries more than the one i use would be better for hiking.

>>I'm worried that the wire screen that supports the pot will scratch the heck out of the pot. So I was thinking of wrapping the edges with something. My first thought was duct tape, but I worry that the flames from the stove will burn it on the top edge (the bottom edge is far enough away to be okay. Any ideas?<<<br><br>I wouldn't use duct tape or anything remotely flammable.<br>Wouldn't it be easier (and lighter) just to cut the screen a bit taller, so there are quarter-inch or so wires sticking up, then bend them double toward the inside at the crossing wire with needlenose pliers or somesuch, so the pot would only contact the bent ends instead of the cut ends? I would think that would prevent scratching pretty well.<br><br>Interesting that a "campfire" discussion that turns very practical doesn't cause the "wrong forum" angst that a "survival" discussion that turns philosophical seems to. :-)<br>I guess the switch might have been my fault.

Backpacking stoves seems to be a good topic for the campfire!<br><br>I like your idea on bending the extended ends down (and in). The trick, although not too difficult, will be to make sure the hieght of each prong is the same so the pot sits level. <br><br>Perhaps I could start by making a loop of heavy gauge wire as a guide. Then wrap the prongs down and around the wire loop and then remove it once the wrap is complete. You could leave the loop in, which would add some rigidity, but I widen the screen to pack it on the outside of the pot. It's too tall to pack in the pot. Have you made your's shorter? Then the base, stove and support screen could fit inside the pot.

...but is it worth the trouble? I can quickly make whatever fittings or appurtenances I wish, but an 8-32 threaded pop-rivet JB epoxied into a 7/32" hole (NOT 1/4" - and no need to rivet it in, altho one may) works so well, why bother (I didn't)? I re-read the designer's blurb about "taking up volume" inside the stove and frankly, I don't agree that it is at all significant. Variation in trimming the cans to height - even a tiny fraction - will have a more significant effect on interior volume... not that even that should make any noticable difference. I used a height-gauge to scribe the cans because I have one (or two) - and there is nothing sacred about the 1.5" height anyway - consider it a guide. Use an 8-32 threaded insert pop rivet and make the cans about 1.55" high if volume is a worry... <grin> The other thing I found useful about the pop rivet is that the un-threaded portion lets me keep a stopper bolt long enough to be managable with my fingers yet short enough to only need a few twirls to open or close.<br><br>On the drill bit (#70 or thereabouts) vs needle construction - I merely snapped off a proper diameter needle at an appropiate length and put it in a pin vise <tap><tap> with a small brass hammer and precise control of location and diameter - too much of a hassle to use a drill bit that small at those angles and thin material. Smallest bit I keep in stock is a #60 anyway <grin>.<br><br>All the ones we made (varied the hole numbers and so on) seem to work very well - the lads are very pleased with themselves. First one took a bit of time, but then they flew together. Handy idea - and I like the cost (nothing - everything was "in stock" at our house, even the denatured alcohol).<br><br>The Stabil bottle idea of Bill's is great - but I think I have to get a smaller bottle of Stabil next time for that. I tried it out last night with a partial bottle (decanted the remaining Stabilizer into another bottle) and it was nifty. I think I will cut a better cap seal (gasket) that will hold up to repeated use, but otherwise a super idea. Not sure about extreme low temps and the bottle, but I'm sure it will be fine above 0 deg-F. If the lads continue to use these stoves into the winter, we'll come up with something cheap (free) and suitable.<br><br>Had a bit of aluminum flashing roll so that's what they used for wind screens... ditto hardware cloth (altho it was 1/4" mesh). Good thing I like tuna fish salad sandwiches...<br><br>Alternate (more complicated) ideas for safe and effective stoves are fermenting. I'll post anything if anything nifty comes to life.<br><br>Alternate opinions welcomed!

I suspect my choice was a function of my ignorance. I scanned the pop rivet section at Ace hardware and didn't noticed anything that resembled an "8-32 threaded pop-rivet." I suppose I could have asked for help, but that would have threatened my masculinity! ;-) <br><br>I stumbled upon the allen screw and liked it's knurled top. I figured that would be easy enough to open with my clumsy fingers. I plan on making a few more with my boys, so perhaps I'll swallow my pride and ask for help in my search for a threaded pop rivet.<br><br>I already have a small twist drill, but I don't recall what size the bit was. But I liked the easy of controlling the drill. You simply hold down on the swivel top with your index finger and spin the drill back-and-forth between your thumb and middle finger.<br><br>I have the small bottle of Stabil. I think I'll go buy a bigger one and transfer the remaining fluid to the new bottle. On the one I have the decanting opening is level with the top. The web site shows a "new" design where the decanting chamber top extends above the bottle to serve as a nozzle. That might make it easier to pour into lawn mower gas tanks, but it's not as nice for backpacking. :-(

Hmm. I think I'm expressing myself poorly- what I had envisioned is using the top horizontal wire of the grid the way I think you're suggesting using a wire loop- in other words, bend the vertical wire ends inward at the top horizontal wire. If I remember how the stuff handles, you have to be careful bending every "other" wire, the ones that bend away from the crosswire instead of over- you run the risk of breaking solder joints. Maybe alternate directions with the weave would be better, so they're all going "over".<br><br>Didn't mean to misrepresent the suggestion as experience, I haven't made one yet. I've thought about it from time to time.. like most people, I think, I have the gut feeling that there must be an easier way to do the filler...and the windscreen seems very dependent on the pot you're using, which varies from trip to trip... <br><br>I was a little surprised that he recommends snips for the soda cans. The operation he describes for scoring the line will produce a nice clean, straight cut if you persist for several rotations- I've done it with a penknife for other reasons. The thicker cans are another matter- haven't tried it.<br><br>I still use my old Svea if the trip is too short to require refueling, and a multi-fuel Whisperlite if it's longer. They're heavier, of course, but without having done the math it would seem that the extra energy in white gas would make a lighter total package (stove, fuel, bottles) for long trips.

Im just going to wait till you two guys work out all the bugs and request a unit for field test and review LOL. Seriously, keep us posted.

The Allen screw is a super idea you had, IMHO. The pop rivets are so easy to use... why not? <shrug> But I was just using what I had laying around - I wouldn't use anything smaller than a #8 opening, tho - actually, if I hadn't had those rivets, I would have used a 1/4-28 NF nut and bolt or a 6.0mmx1.0 nut and bolt - about the size of a #10, roughly. A 1 oz medicine cup (e.g. Nyquil) is another handy (free) measuring device that works well.<br><br>We found that a #60 drill bit makes holes rather larger than optimum - most of these fellows refer to a "0.024" or "0.025" - that's about a #70 drill - TINY (the "regular" sizes go down to a #80). I suspect that within reason (say, no bigger than 1/32" - 0.03125" nominal) the hole size is not critical as long as the total "area" (sum of the holes) is not too much. We're piercing holes that are ~0.027" but they spring back a few thou smaller - IOW, right at the target size. But hey, if it works...<br><br>Also fiddled with the angles on the inner ring of holes - we think that if the inner jets don't combine into a single flame it burns a little cleaner - but it all boils the same near as we can tell.<br><br>Not being terribly patient with JB Weld's 15 hour cure time... after intitial set, we pop the epoxied parts into an oven warmed up to ~200 deg-F (heat turned off then) and in short order - about an hour - the JB Weld is fully cured. That's windscreen and pot support fabrication time...<br><br>Piggy-backing a reply to P_L here: I'm in agreement about the pot support not being versitile for smaller pots, but it works - I can fiddle this to death or just let the lads use 'em. Or both <grin>. The main thing I dislike about this whole setup is the number of discrete parts. There is an all-in-one (two parts, actually) alternative approach using a coffee can... hmmm. Seems bulky. Also, my math agrees with yours - longer trips, the commercial stoves with higher BTU value fuel are "better". OTOH, these are great for cash-strapped folks (kids) and they are reasonably safe. Heck, they work fine.<br><br>Regards to all,<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Actually, just to clarify- it wasn't the pot support I was worried about so much as the foil/flashing windscreen. I'm sure it's much more efficient to have it very close around the pot like that, but it doesn't seem very versatile- if you were carrying two pots, or a pot and a pan, it could be a problem. Or maybe you just open it up wider on the downwind side until it fits?<br><br>I think the idea has a lot of virtues, not just for kids, but for lots of short informal trips. It will take some mental re-training though, for me to figure out how long I want the stove to burn before lighting it each time. I'm sort of used to just turning it off when it's done...<br>

>>>Piggy-backing a reply to P_L here: I'm in agreement about the pot support not being versitile for smaller pots, but it works <<<br><br>Okay.. What if ....<br><br>Take the bending of the prongs idea to a new level. First, make the support screen about an inch too high. Next, clip off the horizontal wires strating from the top edge down an inch so you're left with a circle of 1 inch prongs. Form the screen into a cylander, just as you would for use, then use a needle nose pliers to bend them in towards the circle, forming a star configuration. <br><br>This would allow you to put smaller diameter cups on the stove. <br><br>And it still takes up the same amout of storage space. You could flip it over on the tuna can base, the pop can bottom dome should sit in the center of the star. Drop the empty stove on top.<br><br>BTW, I made my wire stand according to the deminsions on the instructions and the two ends of the cylander are about an inch short of meeting. Is there a reason for this? I'd prefer to cut the piece a bit longer to the two end come together. Then use a small wire hook, like a Christmas ornament hanger, to keep the gap secure.<br><br>

>>>It will take some mental re-training though, for me to figure out how long I want the stove to burn before lighting it each time. <<<<br><br>Measure the fuel amounts and record the burn time, amount of liquid and weather. eventually, you'll have a crib sheet to use.

If i remember the gap in the stand was for a damper to be installed to give you a simmer setting. <br><br>Didn't think about bending over the wire to make the stand less sharp and a little stronger, but it should work well as long as it doesn't extend to far into the flame. The first stand i made a little small to make it take up less room, the burner would heat the ends of the wire up to red hot. Which on small wire decreases the structural integrity quite a bit.<br><br>Personally i side with Tom on making the holes, used a scribe to make the pop rivet hole and a needle in vicegrips for the burner holes. And just to rub it in a little i do have drills in stock down to #80. However, i didn't have the rivet nuts on the shelf which is why i used a rivet and taped it. <br><br>I think the best concept to take away from this thread (the stable bottle is the best)is to use what you have and try it. This is not something that should be complicated, it's cheap and easy to fabricate. Make several with different burner configurations or fill options and see which one you like the best. And then send the one you like the best (or the least) to Chris for testing and evaluation.<br><br><br><br>

We made these windscreens from flashing to fit the "largest" kettle/pot they may use + about 1/4 - 1/2 inch gap. Used 1/2 width of a 12" wide roll - i.e., 6" high. <br><br>They simply "close down" to a smaller diameter for smaller diameter pots, altho I note that (coincidentally) all but one of the pots they own between the three of them is "close enough" to the same as max diameter to not matter. Pots/kettles with bales are handier for them (this isn't going to used with a skillet, but a cut-down area on the flashing would accomodate side-handled cookwear).<br><br>Corners are radiused on the flashing. I think I would like a dead-soft aluminum windscreen a la MSR better, but the lads are happy with these and they sure work well..<br><br>The pot stands, as you also suggested, have the "tabs" of cut wire bent and crimped around the cross wires (alternate directions to avoid bursting a joint). Something to do while waiting for the JB Weld to cure in the oven... We did not leave a gap in the hardware cloth, choosing to use about 12" long piece that is a bit taller than suggested. No simmer ring <shrug> - these are for boiling water as we see it.<br><br>1 oz of denatured (ethanol) alcohol brings a full quart (32 fl oz) of water to a rolling boil and holds it there briefly with any of the stoves. Mild breeze, ~600 ft ASL, 48 deg-F water and 41 deg-F ambient temperature. This includes all fuel used (preheat fuel sprinkled out of the filled burner). One of the stoves is faster - 4 1/2 minutes to full boil. The other two take just under 6 minutes. No simple explanation for the difference. BTW, times are ignition-to-boil (kettle pre-filled with water and fuel pre-measured and poured into the burner)<br><br>Oddly enough... 1/2 oz fuel boils 1/2 quart (16 fl oz) of water (barely)... Two quarts of water can be boiled with roughly 1.8 oz of fuel thus: Boil one quart. As soon as it is rolling, remove kettle and place a second kettle on the stove. The exact amount of fuel required varies between the three stoves. I fully expect that cold conditions will require a slight increase in fuel (preheat will take more). I have not checked BTU potential values to see if this all even makes sense - it's just empirical results.<br><br>Tests were done with an MSR stainless steel kettle with a lid on. Bails get too hot to handle without protection. There is also considerable "waste" heat, so kettle stacking to warm or preheat the upper kettle is very possible.<br><br>Surprised at the soot (not much, but there is some). My (old) paradigm with alcohol is blue flame, no soot. Now I know better...<br><br>Finished testing... stoves are packed for the next trip. The lads have "appointments" to show some other crew members how to make personal stoves - everyone who has seen them work wants one and none have said "well, I'd rather buy a _______ stove".<br><br>Tried one stove with mineral spirits - stick to alcohol. Huge flames (not high pressure, but big flames) and tons of soot - I'm sure we made a few zillion buckyballs on that test. Took forever to burn off 1 oz of fuel and it was a PITA to preheat.<br><br>As for myself, I'm sticking with my pressurized stove - whichever one I carry. But I am mightly impressed with these "free" stoves - they work very well. An Esbit is in my "Be Prepared" pack because it's small and will boil water; otherwise I would make one of these up for me to carry as well.<br><br>

Good idea. You need to cut gussets (darts?), but it should work fine. BTW, as I expected, the flames burn the galvanizing off - do your first burns outside - prol not enuff zinc fumes to give you zinc fever, but...<br><br><< Then use a small wire hook, like a Christmas ornament hanger, to keep the gap secure >><br><br>Not needed - 12" long overlaps just fine and it all hangs together inside the tuna can rim. YMMV.

<< And then send the one you like the best (or the least) to Chris for testing and evaluation >><br><br>Hmmm... wouldn't a better test be to send Chris a "kit"? Lemme rummage thru the "to be crushed" box a bit... yep! Found several kits ready for Chris to test... <grin>

Re: Soot<br><br>One of the links from the stove site recommended painting the bottom of the pot black. This should increase heat absorbtion AND hide the soot! :-)<br><br>I need to touch up my grill this summer, so I'll try painting the bottom of my pot at the same time.

Most paints will create toxic fumes when burned, some very toxic. Please be careful.<br><br>In experimenting with painting the finned cylinders of air-cooled engines to increase cooling, it was found that many high-temperature enamels have insulating effects that defeat the purpose of the blackening. Best results I am aware of with commonly-available materials was with stove paint.