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#48757 - 09/14/05 03:27 AM Re: Dealing with big dogs (? for Biggzie)

I dont know the exact wording of the law, but I was walking down the street of a nearby town with the belt pouch in plain view.
The police officer involved was young and clearly suffering from uniform syndrome. (Put on a uniform and thinks he is .... (You get the picture)) They also are told they must get a quota of convictions each month (government denied but talk to an officer on the quiet and get the real story)

If it was just a blade I am sure I would have lost it and got a fine, but because it was pliers etc I talked myself out of it but was told I shouldnt do it.
The local police leave me alone, but I do know a couple of them, so they know I do use them for work etc.

I think there is a blade size limit but it doesnt matter if its a lock blade or not. Hence I dont carry knives 97% of the time, but I have an assortment of multitools I always carry.
To make things worse I life near the border of 2 states so I have 2 lots of laws to deal with.

WARNING: Rant follows, for those who dont wish to proceed turn away now!

Our gun laws a stupid as well and our government now has the mentality on not governing for the people and just doing what it likes.
for example it is moving through paliament to sell a government owned asset called Telstra. 70% of the population say they dont want it sold but its pushing through the legislation anyway.

Some years ago there was a mass shooting and the Government banner semi auto riffles and semi auto shotguns and guns with magazines that hold more than 5 rounds (or it maybe 7, cant remember exactly)
But the joke was they organised a buy back for these weapons but didn't pay out on unregistered guns only registered guns. So some people was turned away with the weapons.
Now we have the criminals with the banned weapons and the rest of the population are becoming ready made victims.

If you look into history you will see that PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. disarmed the population so it could control them.
The government is now gearing up for the next lot of banning weapons.

And in the name of fighting terrorism our laws are looking like what Saddam used to do in Iraq. But with out the torture of course.

#48758 - 09/14/05 10:13 AM Re: Dealing with big dogs (? for Biggzie)

I have been meaning to find out exactly what the laws are here in the state of South Australia because ignorance isnt an excuse. (guilty as charged)
So I called in to see the police.

Here is a summary of my visit and I found out the laws have changed since my incident.

When questioned about carrying my leatherman:
Response: “you can carry it for any lawful purpose but not near or on a licensed premises especially after 9pm. Also you are not allowed to use it for self defense.” (Licensed meaning serving alcohol)

When questioned about carrying a normal knife:
Response: “why would you want to carry a knife?”
My response “ I want to know what the law is because I carry one when bushwalking or camping etc.”
Response: “you can carry it for any lawful purpose, there is no size or type limit, apart from prohibited weapons. example: if you buy a knife at the camping store and we ask you what you are doing with the knife and you say “I have just bought it and Im going to the car” is ok. But if you are walking down the night club district in Adelaide (State capital city) with the same knife you would be prosecuted for carrying an offensive weapon. If you are going camping, leave it in the car until you get there then carry it.”
He then gave me a leaflet on weapon laws.

Summary: it seems that you can be charged for carrying any knife.

Some things of interest from the leaflet:
There are 3 classifications of weapons: 1. Offensive Weapons 2. Dangerous articles 3. Prohibited Weapons

1. Offensive Weapons
Anything can be an offensive weapon if it is carried or used in a way that is offensive or with intent to harm others.
It is illegal to carry an offensive weapon without a lawful excuse.

2. Dangerous article
It is illegal to manufacture, supply, deal in, possess or use a dangerous article without a lawful excuse.

3. Prohibited Weapon
It is illegal to manufacture, supply, deal in, possess or use a dangerous article unless exempt.

An example given under Offensive weapons is carrying a hammer in a nightclub at 2am.

Examples of Dangerous Articles
blow gun or pipe, slingshot, dart projector or archery dart slinger, capsicum spray, Self protection device (device that emits electric current/energy or sound )

Examples of Prohibited Weapons
Ballistic knife, Catapult, shanghai, slingshot with a brace, tear gas, mace, concealed weapon (article that appears harmless but conceals a knife/spike etc), Dypenylaminechloroarsone in all forms (can anyone tell me what that is), extendable batton, fighting knife ( butterfly, dagger, flick, push knives etc), hand or foot claws, knuckle duster, morning start, nunchakus, pistol cross bow, star knife, throwing knife, undetectable knife (made from material preventing detection by x-ray or metal detectors)

#48759 - 09/15/05 04:06 PM Re: Dypenylaminechloroarsone
lazermonkey Offline

Registered: 12/27/04
Posts: 318
Loc: Monterey CA
Got this from Dictionary.com
"A highly poisonous yellow crystalline compound, C12H9AsClN, used as a poison gas and sometimes with tear gas. Also called diphenylaminechloroarsine."

It spell cheaked it as diphenylaminechloroarsine (the last o is an i in there data base.)
Hmmm... I think it is time for a bigger hammer.

#48760 - 09/15/05 04:59 PM Re: Dealing with big dogs - Attacking humans

I've read through the replies and many offer good suggestions. Of course, prevention is always the best policy. If you are confronted by an aggressive dog, be prepared to fight it off, contrary to what many have said there is such a thing as a bad dog . Some are not socialized by their owners and do not know how to deal with people or other dogs. Chained or tied dogs are good examples. In any case , when approached by an aggressive dog, you can behave like a submissive dog, by adopting the same body language:

1-do stand sideways (makes you look smaller)
2-do slump your shoulders (also protects your face)
3-do avert your eyes (make sure to see him in your peripheral vision)
4-do stand still or back away slowly
5-be familiar with but do not rely on the dogs body language - it is very difficult to detect subtle clues depending on coats, cropped ears / tails. This video is a good starting point - good for kids too : Learn to Speak Dog(speakers/sound not required)

#48761 - 09/15/05 05:52 PM Re: Dealing with big dogs - Attacking humans
Fitzoid Offline

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 289
Loc: WI, MA, and NYC
Great video! Thanks for posting it! I wish they had also shown raised hackles (back hair), which is very easy to see from a distance and a sure sign you should stay away from a dog.

I think too many people think they can scare off errant dogs with noise and arm waving, etc. That may be true 9 out of 10 times, but it's that last time that will getcha. Although to tell you the truth, if I see a mean looking stray, I'm already looking down at the ground... to find a big stick...
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Henny Youngman

#48762 - 09/15/05 07:39 PM Re: Dealing with big dogs - Attacking humans

I agree with you, and with Fitz. I am a subscriber to the 'run right at them and yell' plan for domesticated dogs that are aggressive, but years ago I had to shoot several dozen feral dogs on a piece of land we had close to town. They had been dumped in the country, and they were worse than wild, because they weren't afraid of people. They were BAD dogs, and they killed a lot of livestock

#48763 - 09/16/05 02:48 PM Re: Dealing with big dogs - Attacking humans
NAro Offline

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 489
First, Fitz.. for the record: Your avatar is the best looking Shepherd I've seen in a long time. And I've seen a lot of Sieger and Siegren class dogs! I love the longer-coated variants!

I've worked Schutzhund, trained dogs for a police department, and been owned by German Shepherds. I've seen too many instances of irresponsible or inattentive owners allowing dominant dogs too close to each other. And, frankly, I've made my share of mistakes in classes and on the street. Here's what I think, FWIW:

1) Pepper Spray and Sticks can be useful, as can a cannon. It is often a matter of timing. If the attack is "joined" it often is very difficult to break up even with maximum brutality on the part of the handler.

2) The best intervention is an early intervention. If I saw another dog moving within 20-30 feet and eyeing my dog, I'd move (heel my dog) away at an angle and keep moving. I'd keep my dog from making eye contact with the loose dog (YES, you can train this!) ALMOST always the dog-on-dog attack is preceded by signaling between the dogs, and this suggestion often breaks that up in time.

3) I'd have a walking stick. Actually, the one I carry is a shooter's monopod which telescopes out to 6ft. What has worked well for me is to take a 1/2 step between the dogs (assuming the oncoming dog is 10-15 feet away) and EXTEND THE STICK AND POINT IT DIRECTLY AT HIM/HER and repeating in a loud deep voice NO. Brandishing it as a club absolutely as a last resort, since it can trigger an aggressive or defensive attack too. I can tell you that I've had and worked dogs who (if I "attacked" the other dog) would absolutely join my attack. The idea is that you and your stick create separation and distration. Works pretty well. Similarly for pepper spray: in my experience if they're joined in battle, the battle likely will continue spray or not! Your chances improve if you spray at the maximum distance effective, and follow with retreat (at an angle).

4) How to break up a fight in progress... opinions vary. This is what the best Schutzhund trainer I've ever met teaches: a) both owners grab the hind legs of their dogs, back off and spin away. Hind legs rarely bite. b)once distance is established, everyone has to keep moving away. The dogs will remember each other and will hold a grudge. Training them not to do so is possible, but tricky. If there aren't two handlers ready/willing to do this (e.g. the scenario in this thread)... stay out of it.

As for the opinion that fighting dogs usually settle the problem and withdraw with minimal injury if people let them: My opinion differs. If they were really fighting.. if they meant business and weren't just playground-bullying, one or both are going to the Vet. Emergency hospital. Winner or looser.

Finally (MAN.. I'm ususually wordy today), the opinions we see here from time to time about OUR ability to fight a large attacking dog differ from my experience. I've been the guy in the padded suit, knowing what's coming, and having done that before many times.. and I wouldn't give you odds on my chances unarmed and unpadded against any of the large working breeds used for this kind of work. I might (probably would) survive, but I'll have broken bones and other serious injuries. A knife, gun or club would not prevent serious injury if I waited until the dog hit me. It might, if I could use the weapon to prevent the attack. But if that dog means business and hits you, expect to go down and expect pain/shock/puncture/and fracture at the point of impact.

....having said all that, I'm going to the dog park to walk my Alligator.

#48764 - 09/16/05 05:57 PM Re: Dealing with big dogs - Attacking humans
Fitzoid Offline

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 289
Loc: WI, MA, and NYC

Thanks for you comments!! We love coated shepherds. Most strangers we encounter have never seen one before and are amazed to see an enormous "fluffy" looking german shepherd.

I'm always very impressed with serious dog trainers and the respect they give the animals they work with. We spent several years training our dog (night and weekend classes) and got to work closely with some very capable people. No one knows better that the people who train them the power these animals have. I happen to think obedience training should be mandatory for large dogs, as most owners don't seem to know any more than to yell and tug at the leash, for all the good that does...
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Henny Youngman

#48765 - 09/17/05 02:26 AM Re: Dealing with big dogs
trooper0366 Offline

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 59
Loc: Missouri
Peper Mace is a good option. I have used it in a duty status.
Without integrity one has nothing.

#48766 - 09/17/05 01:57 PM Re: Dealing with big dogs
celler Offline

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
I walk my big boy (see my avatar) about every night in a suburban setting. Unsecured dogs on my route are my worst probelm. Most are of the cat-size yappy type, so we just keep walking. However, on one occasion a husky came bolting out of no where. I blinded him with an exremely bright flashlight that I carry and was able to convice him to move on. However, had that not worked, I was prepared to use the integrated pepper spray dispenser in the light. The flashlight is called a Tiger Light and is a favorite of some of my LEO friends. Thus, in a non-threatening form of a MagLite, I have an exremely bright light that will definitely blind an agreesive dog and a pepper spray back up. Not cheap, but worth it for my route.


Edited by celler (09/17/05 01:59 PM)

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