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#44618 - 07/24/05 11:18 PM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Randjack, if you would, extend my apologies to your local ACLU chapter for all the stuff I've said about them and the Second. I'm serious, I've said some pretty nasty things. Very cool that you guys took the fight that the national wouildn't.

See you in the camps in three years.


Edited by ironsraven (07/24/05 11:21 PM)

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#44619 - 07/24/05 11:35 PM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'll second that! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#44620 - 07/25/05 12:05 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Reading this thread over the past few days reinforces a concern that I have had for quite swome time. Theso-called terrorists have not and will not succeed in destabilizing our country directly, but I am beginning to fear that they will force a crisis in our national character with as yet unforseeable consequences. Let me explain.

There is an aspect of our national character that exists nowhere else in the world. It is a strain of individualism that begins with the renegades that founded this country and runs through our art, literature, popular culture -- everything. From James Fenemore Cooper to the legends of the trappers, to cowboys, to the modern era a lone-wolf cops, it is a romanticism of radical individualism that pervades everything. The servivalist branch of this forum's devotees is another example - the misguided notion that if everything goes to hell, one can just go one's own way.

The conflict is that we are really terribly social people. Most people are not loners, individualists, or renegades, or if they do fancy themselves as such, they do so within the confines of a renegade convention. For example, if you want to be a punker, you best adhere to the punker fashions in or to fit in. Lets face it, most American fail pretty dismally in the true individualist department. Those who really are individualists are generally mistrusted, feared, or ridiculed. That conventionality leads to our great strength. The "greatest generation" that waged our last world war so effectively was so effective precisely because they pulled together so well when the chips were down.

So, we have an inherent conflict between our two natures, the individual and social being. We can't stand to be thought of as conformists in a very profound way that is alien to most europeans, and certainly to most all orientals. But it is more than just a pretense -- it is so internalized that the idea of somebody digging through our stuff at checkpoints, indeed, the very idea of checkpoints, offends us deeply -- me too. But the stringth of the nation lies in our ability to focus our combined might against a common enemy.

And this series of posts in this thread shows how it is deviding us, and alienating us from our government. I don't have an answer. I can't change my nature, either, and I can't start trusting my goverment because I've seen to much. But, maybe if we recognize the conflict in our nature, we can begin to resolve it.

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#44621 - 07/25/05 12:07 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
7k7k99 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 375
Loc: Ohio
CCW is a joke here in ohio -- as soon as we got CCW through the legislature, businesses all over put up signs that guns are prohibited on the property, even with a CCW -- so what's the use of having one? My employer was one of the first to plaster pictures of guns with a circle and a line through it all over the building and parking lot. Great! you can carry a licensed gun, but you can't take it anywhere.

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#44622 - 07/25/05 12:19 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


No other government that was in existance when the Constitution was ratified still exists without radical alteration.

The English added a Prime Minister and the House of Commons. Germany is a country, not a lot of squabbling fifedoms. Dito Italy. Spain is no longer a monarchy. The Tzars, Emperors and Shogun would no longer recognise Russia, China or Japan.

All things of human creation wear out, or more often, spoil. I can't say for sure if we are the visionaries who wish to search the future, or the reactionary dinosaurs who pine for the past. Nor do I care.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, so I'm going to shut up now. I'll reply to myself if I figure it out.

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#44623 - 07/25/05 12:24 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


***WARNING- REDNECK RANT ABOUT TO BEGIN***

I just love listening to/reading folks nitpicking a common sense issue to death...
what's the problem with busting the kid with the dime bag... is it not against the law???
If you're stopped in traffic during a DUI road block, and you've got an ILLEGAL firearm, isn't it STILL against the law???
If you're found with a LEGAL firearm, shouldn't you be allowed to go on your way, rather than being needlessly/ILLEGALLY hassled for having something that while politically incorrect, is nevertheless LEGAL???

The sensible laws should be enforced, the nonsensical laws should be abbolished, and the criminals and misguided legal folk (read that, police, lawyers, and judges) should be made to find other employment (at the very least).
Kids shouldn't be hassled for saving fellow students' lives (the inhaler story).
Homeowners shouldn't be prosecuted for protecting their property (forget the "neccesary force" arguement, if you don't want to DIE, don't break into anywhere).
Folks with prescriptions for medical marijuana shouldn't have to worry about visits from the DEA... street dealers should be executed... unless/until their drug of choice is made legal.

The law should be more concerned with the rights of the truly innocent, and to Hades with the rights of the criminal.

If this is all to simple, then I guess I COULD BE a Redneck, but that's the way I'll be... to the end.

***REDNECK RANT NOW OVER***

Troy

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#44624 - 07/25/05 12:47 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well said.

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#44625 - 07/25/05 12:50 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
cedfire Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 659
Loc: Orygun
That's a good point -- history is a great teacher.

We evolved from 13 original colonies into what we are today. Gone are witch hunts, slave labor, scarlet letters, and many other things we would consider crazy. Yet at one point they were deemed acceptable.

Time has a funny way of putting a perspective on everything.

Our country has dealt with the brunt of civil war, various world wars, economic doom, and natural disasters. Terrorism is just one more item to add to that list. We'll overcome that, too.

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#44626 - 07/25/05 01:05 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
norad45 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
"Theso-called terrorists have not and will not succeed in destabilizing our country directly, but I am beginning to fear that they will force a crisis in our national character with as yet unforseeable consequences."

So-called ?

They are terrorists. I'm not sure what else you would call them. I mean, they are not freedom fighters, guerillas, patriots, the underground, the resistance, the Black Panthers, the AARP, or the Girl Scouts. They won't force a crisis in our national character either--they are going to lose and lose bad.

"Lets face it, most American fail pretty dismally in the true individualist department."

I think you better define what you mean by "most American" (sic). There are some pretty rugged people out west here who do not look to the government to solve all their problems. In fact, all some of us ask is to be left alone. Not everybody lives in an urban area. I feel for the people of New York City. Not only do they have random searches, but they also have to face this war every day in a way that I do not (yet) have to.

It is up the the people of NYC to decide if they need random searches or not. It is they who are facing the greatest threat. Not the Senate, the President, SCOTUS, or the ACLU. The people of NYC will find a balance between security and liberty. It may not be what I would choose as a non-New Yorker, but it will be a New York solution. Who am I to argue with that?

Regards, Vince

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#44627 - 07/25/05 01:14 AM Re: NYC subway and those random bag searches
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think he was refeering to people who don't socialize and are totally self reliant except for powder and some metal items they barter a bushel of something for to the blacksmith or the general store owner.

Humans have become to specialized, as evidenced by a departure from an agrian society to an artisan and academic society. Even farmers are as much artisans at this point.

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