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#4096 - 02/14/02 05:19 PM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
Anonymous
Unregistered


remember that you can't allways biuld igloos due to the snow being to powdery. I herd you can't build them in the far north of sweeden cos of that.<br>don't know about lappland......<br>-james<br>

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#4097 - 02/14/02 05:20 PM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp
Anonymous
Unregistered


That brought to mind a rescue on Lake Winnipesaukee. It seems some city folks decided to go check on their summer camp at about ice out time. They got in a safu and "CALLED".<br><br>Well the ice was unwalkable, and unboatable, so after finding no way to normally get there a Hoover Craft was called in....<br><br>Well..... the fire dept locally did not have one, but they had every thing at the dock anyway..... ambulances, fire trucks, power wagons, you name it even the dalmation. EMTs as far as the eye can see! This was rather a spectical to say the least with the atmosphere of a carnival. Ice out is a big deal here... we even make bets on it...... Well after about 14 hours the Hoover Craft came on the scene, and the folks were recovered, but the bill was some place around $25,000.00 when all was settled..... These folks are not likely to repeat that call I bet, but not because the bill was enough to buy another summer camp, but that they half froze waiting for the Hoover Craft

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#4098 - 02/14/02 06:01 PM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sounds interesting. It seems you want to bulk up and starve.<br>I have no ideas about that. I seem to be stuck at scronney dog 140 -145 pounds and 5'11". I would die trying what your gonna try. I would need to bring carbs and proteins, with supplementing as possible from the land.... Birch tea and the like, perhaps labradore teas too. When I go out I try to bring powdered grains and make cearals with chips of maple sugar, and what we call "GORP" a mix of seeds and rasins, sometimes honey coated. I can pound that and add wheat flour to make hot cakes if cooking is possible. I think you might get by bringing 8 ounces a day rations dry weight.<br><br>The one thing that gets me is running out of energy which can happen unexpectedly to me. I can recover with rest and fuel quickly, and with just rest a little longer. I find about 3 days with no food at all, just water and I become drained to the point under stressful hiking that I can't think clearly, and that gets to be dangerous. Then small errors can become big errors. When that sort of thing happens I tend to want to sleep, and that is when hypothermia can take over, and really mess up your thinking processes. When you are in full blown hypothermia you do really stupid things, just ask me! I sort of test myself at this a few years ago with trusted friends, and they were pretty mad at me later even though they agreed to take care of me. I wanted to see for myself just how stupid I would get. I was stupid enough that I could not do any simple math, write ledgibly and so on. I became a basic pain in the butt, much like drinking does..... Finally after many hours I was hand fed, and a full report was made to me after the test. The test was never repeated. To make a shorter story I had drained myself in wet/ cold conditions to see how far I personally could go, and found day 3 with no food and hard work in that type of condition was father than I could go alone. Had I been alone some place around 48 hours working 24 hours a day probably would have killed me. My thinking stopped at about that time........ I hope you can use this info in your up coming situation.<br><br> I have never been there, and wonder if you can depend on a constant snow base. last year here we had 5' at this time of year, but this year we have just 8". I have built the quinze before, but did not know the name for it. I agree when set up these are good shelters, but I have been in a igloo at 5000 feet, and found that rather comfy at -96'F with a 150 knot breeze outside. Info direct to 2 way radio on rescue request from Mt Washinton weather station. I did not build the igloo..... That remains a mystery to me to this day, and it was a true mystery as I had been to where I found it the day before in clear conditions, and it was NOT there then! I have 1 photo of it from the outside, and several from the inside........ to me this was truly unbelievable, and complete with some type of "EASTERN" hyroglphics inside????? These are slides from a 35mm manual minolta, and I have no decent way of showing these here. I have no way to get good quality scans of slides. I wish i did, because i would like to ask the world about this.<br><br>I would be interested in hearing more details that you decide as you decide what they will be..... Mac<br>I would suggest you bring a shelter, and food on a trip like this. A tarp of some light weight material can atleast block wind so you can have fire/stove working. I have seen winds that will blow out a fire and scatter it all over, and also blow out stoves. If you can count on a snow base then the shelter is not needed though. Ofter i carry a gortex bivy, bag, and vapior barrier for inside the bag only, and sleep under the stars in winter average temps at night about -15'F at 5000'.

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#4099 - 02/14/02 06:21 PM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp
Anonymous
Unregistered


<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I don't have the tin foil hat that you need to use a cell phone either!!! Mac<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>For an in-depth look at the usage and fabrication of such a hat check this link<br><br><br><br><br><br>Seems that I could easily fabricate this from the foil that I carry around my altoids tin now and that would make the cellphone a useful adjunct to my PSK.

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#4100 - 02/19/02 01:44 AM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Gotta jump in here somewhere... sorry I haven't been on for a while - dashed out to Colorado for a week (not for fun - Dad had an emergency bypass - he is now "turbocharged Grandpa" according to our youngest son)<br><br>Jampot, while I have not been in Lapland, I have spent a lot of time (years) "professionally" outdoors in the arctic, including teaching survival training (short and long term). I have built and used just about every kind of shelter (including many variations of "no shelter"), and most have their place. Factually, a snow shelter is a snow shelter, no matter if it be quinzee, "igloo" (which is NOT a North American Eskimo shelter - peculiar to Greenland, IIRC), or thermal shelter. Density of snow, thickness, interior dimensions/volume, ground temperature (if close enough to ground to matter), etc. are the variables. Having said that... quinzees and their close cousin thermal shelters typically have lower density snow than igloos = better insulating value. If the snow conditions permit, I agree that igloos are by far the fastest to build.<br><br>I strongly suggest that you do not plan to go without alternatives to snow shelters - the snow just isn't there sometimes, or is otherwise unsuitable for the conditions (a chinook can make a snow shelter a dripping wet hypothermia chamber, for example). I like snowshelters... but I won't stake my life on them without a backup plan. Neither will the native North Americans I've known and lived with, and their old folks are the "real experts" in this hemisphere.<br><br>Four weeks is a long time for the first trip to the Arctic. January, in particular, can bring some extreme temperatures. No one can accurately predict how they will fare on a given day in extreme temperatures. Some days one may function perfectly well at -40C; other days the same person may be in great discomfort and danger at -25C... there are too many physiological and mental variables to enumerate here. And the dangers from hypothermia when by oneself cannot be understated. You really have to have been there (and pulled back by someone else) to fully appreciate this, as I think Mac implied. If you are by yourself, once hypothermia gets to late stage 1 / early stage 2, you ARE GOING TO DIE if you are by yourself - no equivocation; no exceptions. I have heard from a lot of people who say they were hypothermic and did thus and such to save themselves - BS! They were simply very cold or in stage one hypothermia by definition. So... avoid hypothermia, eh? I'd like to read about your trip next year when you get back from it - from your hand. <grin><br><br>A proper tent is the surest thing - you don't have to use it all the time. A frost liner makes a difference, and I highly suggest you make and use one if you decide on a tent. You should be able to run your stove in your tent, of course (In the USA, Boy Scouts of America does not permit that, but it is rather important in extreme conditions). Since it sounds like you will be able to use open fires at least part of the time, you may be able to carry enough fuel for 4 weeks... it takes a fair bit more in the Arctic. White Gas (Coleman Fuel or preferably Blazo) usually winds up being the best reliable compromise for a long trip like that.<br><br>A tarp is the minimum I would consider. If you really want to "go native", use hides - caribou (reindeer). I agree with Mac - Canvas has better qualities than nylon for this sort of use BUT it's too heavy for the trip you are planning. In the right conditions, a very adequate shelter that I am fond of is a simple snowhole stamped into the snow with my skis or snowshoes, then covered by my tarp. Very fast shelter. Great at -20F; not warm enough at -55F, but much better than nothing.<br><br>Moisture in your sleeping bag is going to be an issue you'll have to plan to deal with. I used a down bag for years in the Arctic with great success - the issue of water (ice) in the bag is the same no matter what the fill in the winter, so synthetics are really no better in those conditions. Plan for it and deal with it and you'll be ahead of the game.<br><br>Food is going to be an issue, no doubt about it. I must disagree with our slender Eastern Mountaineer a bit - think FAT and protien. Lots of fat... You'll crave it - listen to your body. This is a whole topic unto itself... 4 weeks is a LOT of calories to carry, especially if you are active (walking, building shelters, foraging, etc.). Under those conditions, I lose weight at 6,000 calories/day. I stay even at around 7,000 calories / day. I am average sized (~71kg or 180 lbs) and I am lean (cannot float in fresh water), and that's what it takes for me to maintain weight. Do the math for yourself and please try to err on the side of caution - you know your metabolic needs. I cannot plan to live off stored body fat for very long, but perhaps you have hit upon a way to do that - I dunno; sounds risky to me.<br><br>"ultralight" in the Arctic? I hope you mean that in a relative sense! Are you planning to travel strictly with a pack, or is an ahkio or pulk something you are willing to consider? I would use one, given the choice. What over-snow method of travel are you considering - snowshoes or skis?<br><br>Hope this gives you some useful things to consider - please feel free to contact me directly or here if I can be of any assistance in your trip planning. I look forward to hearing all about it!<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

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#4101 - 02/19/02 02:46 AM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
Ade Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 280
Tom,<br><br>Always a pleasure to read your posts....especially since the words "Mountain Warfare School" were mentioned last drill. Dangit!!! I hate the cold. Jampot isn't around anymore, btw. Deputy Chris ran him off (for good reason I feel certain).<br><br>Sorry to hear about your Dad. My wife said to tell you that he (and you, and the rest of your family) will be in her prayers. <br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

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#4102 - 02/19/02 03:32 AM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Hi, Andy!<br><br>MWS - the one run by Fort Lewis cadre in Washington State? You'll have fun - it's wet there, tho. NWTC (Alaska) was part of what I did for a living, altho I was at Lewis also for a couple of years.<br><br>Thanks much for the prayers - all is well - Dad has been hauling his butt around slower and slower the last few years up in the high country and blaming it on age - he was wrong! A good doc figured it out BEFORE he had a heart attack and now he's overhauled. He already feels like a million bucks and I am confident that he's got a lot more trips in him now (probably run me into the dirt, LoL)<br><br>Oh - Chris was kind enough to fill me in on the miscreant. I hadn't gotten that far - do you guys have any idea how many posts there have been in the last week????<br><br>Tom

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#4103 - 02/19/02 05:53 AM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
billvann Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/10/01
Posts: 780
Loc: NE Illinois, USA (42:19:08N 08...
Tom, welcome back and glad to hear your father is doing well.
_________________________
Willie Vannerson
McHenry, IL

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#4104 - 02/19/02 11:38 AM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
Anonymous
Unregistered


tom, glad to read your dads doing well. i pray he is around for a long time to come.

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#4105 - 02/19/02 06:25 PM Re: Shelter - Tent or Tarp (jampot )
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tom, I am not all that great when it comes to foods stuffs.. I think there ends up being a lot of fats in the junk foods I take, and consider these to be in the carbs and the protiens.... I agree totaly if fats are a seperate food item.... I bring things like cheese and crackers and even peanut butter...... i am one of eating machines that eats anything I want and more that I really wanted sometimes, and don't seem to be able to gain an ounce ;-( I get tired of big guys kicking sand in my face a the beach too! But I get even in water over 8' deep just fine<br> ;-).<br> I miss baddly the Stoffer's frozed boilable bags meals. These were not exactly light weight, but were very handy to my style of cooking.. If you know of another source the info would be most welcome.... Incase you don't know what these are I will attempt to explain what and how....<br><br>I bought these Stoffer's boilable meals frozen... they came with rice, noodles, in one bag, and the other bag was swedish meat balls, steak and veggies, chicken and veggies, and that sort of thing.... Since it was no problem keeping these frozen they worked out well.<br><br>my technique was to leave as much trash at home as possible, and to boil the bags with water that I would drink later, or with the meal.<br><br>So I would fire up my rocket Sveya 123 and boil up a pot of water with the bags.... when all was hot I would pour the meat entree' on the noodle/rice in the other bag and eat directly out of the bag, pour the water into some drink and eat. After eatting there was no clean up, other than stuffing the bag in to one bag. After 10 days or so I would have usually 2 cocoa bags stuffed full for all the trash I had. I never washed a single dish....Every time I washed a dish in my life it rains..... So as rain is not a great idea at -40'F I prefered to never wash a dish ever...just ask my wife! ;-)<br><br>Like wise I think he needs a shelter, and at the site i provided there is a tent made just for going there..... "Top of the World" is the name of the tent... it is made from a "To order" Eygptian cotton, very strong, and very thin material that at least won't melt if it catches fire! I know of no synthetic tents that are even remotely safe with any flame around them..... perhaps there is, and I don't know about it... I have not personally seen the "Top of the World " tent, but have seen the cloth it is made from. I think it compares weight wise to any synthetic tent made for the same place, and you can have a stove in it.<br><br>it seems to me that if you have a syntheic tent you need some other tarp for just cooking, as the wind might need to be broke, and the weather in general might not lend it self to cooking totally expose.<br><br>Your right about me being an Eatern Mountaineer, and I only see real cold at about 4000'+ here, but I stay out for 10 days at a time that high..... And lived out in a wood stoved and with also a open fire tee pee. The stove saved coals over night.. it had 4' of pipe only....<br><br>I find water vapor a real pain in the tail...... it takes only a few days to wet out and freeze a down bag, so I use a vapor barrier from about 20'F and colder..... I made mine from junk, but recently bought a store bought one. All that needs be is that the cloth is about 100% water proof, and that you turn it out each day.... I found just how well this works, when on of my seams failed after being out awhile, and no knowing the seam failed..... I was in a gortex bivy, 0'F bag, with the vapor barrier, a ridge rest, and a therma rest. it was the 4th ot 5th day at never above -10'F when I noticed ice on my bag near my feet, and inside the bivy. The spot was about 124 square inches or so. I reversed the bag out side and hung it in trees at tree line to sublimate, and sewed up the seam again, as I was only 1/2 way thru that trip<br> And so it goes......... Mac

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