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#34035 - 11/07/04 12:35 AM Flashlight came in handy
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
I was working out on stage during school preparing for our school drama and as always I had my Surefire A2 on me. Well, the power went out and all the lights went off. This wasn't good as two kids were 25ft up on a ladder, another was 10ft up on a ladder, and there was a good 15 kids wandering around in pitch black. I yelled out, "no one move". I grabbed my flashlight out of my pocket, made sure the guys on the ladders were off and made sure everyone was off the two story set, I directed everyone out into the hallway which had emergency lighting. If I didn't have that flashlight someone could have easily knocked the guys of the ladder or fell off the set. Just shows that being prepared can really be handy <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

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#34036 - 11/07/04 02:49 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
Sort of gives new meaning to "break a leg!" Well Done. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#34037 - 11/08/04 01:28 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
I've been on a flashlight tear lately, learning a lot in the process. I recently aquired a Surefire L4. A few years ago I would not have believed that any flashlight is worth what this one cost, but it's very, very impressive.

It seems to be like some other items, you don't miss not having it until you try it EDC and see how handy it really is.

Of course, that wasn't so much the case just a little while ago, before you could easily pocket a really powerful, reliable light.
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#34038 - 11/08/04 01:42 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mr Dead,
Im very interested in what makes a Surefire worth its price. As I have no experience with the brand.

Also on the news the other night they showed a US soldier with, I think, a surefire strapped underneath his rifle. Are they on current issue with the military? And isnt it also used in the recent fim "SWAT"?

Reinhardt

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#34039 - 11/08/04 02:28 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Quote:
Im very interested in what makes a Surefire worth its price. As I have no experience with the brand.


Well, that's a value judgement I can't make for anyone else, of course.

In researching for my own needs I bought a number of flashlights. I ended up wtih an Inova, an Infinity (now Gerber), a Streamlight, an Underwater Kinetics (UK), and I previously had several MagLite versions, Tektites, and a Pelican Stealthlite (my past favorite).

Based on what I had read on the candlepower forums, broke down and bought the Surefire L4. At the time I thought I was being very foolish to get caught up in the enthusiasm, but then I don't tend to skimp on things I think I might really depend on. That's a matter of outlook.

When it arrived, I was just flat-out amazed. Even though I had done a fair amount of research, my first impression was that it was MUCH smaller and lighter than I expected. It also has the distinct feel of precise machining in a tiny jewel-like object. Then I turned it on...

The beam is the brightest flashlight I've ever used, by far, and outshines any of the others very easily- most, shone on the same surface next to the beam from the L4, simply become invisible. It is not only blinding to look into the beam, it is quite painful. It's white, very even, almost free of artifacts- that is, there's a "hot spot" in the center, and a "corona" or "spill" around that, but almost no uneveness, and no shadows.

So, is it worth the very high price? That's hard to say, but it is certainly true that it makes every other flashlight I own or have used seem some combination of bulky, heavy, clunky, fragile, or dim.

If I lost the Surefire, I would buy another. I'm not sure that's true of any of the others.

Second choice would clearly be the Streamlight, but, even though the specs look comparable, it subjectively feels about a third larger and twice the weight, is much less pocketable, it rattles, the switch is a bit awkward, and it's generally is much less confidence-inspiring.

That having been said, please see my remarks about the Nuwai QIII in the "Rail Crash" thread.

Quote:
Also on the news the other night they showed a US soldier with, I think, a surefire strapped underneath his rifle. Are they on current issue with the military? And isnt it also used in the recent fim "SWAT"?


I understand that they are issued to some elite troops, although apparently the company makes a number of products for the military and police that might not be marked, so it's not always obviouis.

I haven't seen the film, but they have become quite popular lately, and show up in a lot of movies... not the least, because the beams are actually visible against the background lights used in Hollywood even for night filiming.
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#34040 - 11/08/04 02:41 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Out of curiosity how long do the batteries typically last on the L4? As that has always been my main concern about the surefire (hence why I currently don't own one).

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#34041 - 11/08/04 03:24 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
All things are compromise..

I haven't gone though the first set yet, so can't say from experience.

Surefire says the L4 puts out full (regulated) light for an hour, followed by 1.5 hours of declining light. Their estimates tend to be conservative (very conservative, compared to other manufacturers). That doesn't sound great, but there are some mitigating factors:

Cells tend to actually last longer (in total "on" time) with intermittent use than with constant use, and that's how they tend to be used in the real world.

The lithium cells (CR123) are now much less expensive ($1 - $1.25 on-line) and are very lightweight, so it's no trouble to carry a spare set or two (do NOT buy them in a store, where they range from $5-7 EACH).

I've already ordered a "McGizmo" 2-stage switch for the L4, which should provide me with about 8-10 hours of lower level light. This is helpful anyway, as the stock L4 is too bright for many common tasks.

There is always the L2- which is an inch longer, almost the same price, but comes with a 2-stage switch. Surefire says it lasts the same hour on full-out high (which is listed as brighter than the L4), but an amazing 18 hours at the lower setting, which I understand is still pretty bright, and adequate for routine use.

Another option, of course, is to carry a small, lightweight, low-power but long-lasting LED light for prolonged use where you don't need the bright light. The Inova X5, for example, isn't all that much smaller, and not nearly as bright, but it does have a reputation for sucking the last bit of energy (and hours of use) out of the same lithium cells that are already drained too far to be useful in the more powerful lights.
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#34042 - 11/09/04 12:57 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
X-ray Dave Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 572
Loc: Nevada
A few years ago I would have laughed at buying an expensive flashlight. Now I EDC a SureFire. Stopped at an MVA a while back and the S.O. Deputy was impressed with it.

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#34043 - 11/09/04 02:05 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Burncycle Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 577
Paul: A surefire came in handy?! Not possible! They're horrible for emergency use!

(sorry, that was a little jab about an earlier conversation <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Anyway.....

Quote:
Im very interested in what makes a Surefire worth its price. As I have no experience with the brand.


Here ya go

http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=15783

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#34044 - 11/09/04 04:16 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
brian Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Texas
That's actually a point well taken. I was one of those pro-mini-led people on the "other" thread and after initially reading this post I couldn't help but look at my trusty photon and my trustier (not really a word...I know) ArcAAA-P and think about how neither would would really illuminate someone up on a 25' ladder all too well. Of course they would give me enough light to atleast get myself out of the way of a falling 25' ladder with a 200# theatre student on it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Learn to improvise everything.

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#34045 - 11/10/04 02:47 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Quote:
Paul: A surefire came in handy?! Not possible! They're horrible for emergency use!

(sorry, that was a little jab about an earlier conversation )


When you are in a pitch black 1,000 seat auditorium with a classroom full of teenagers, more then 10 of which are atleast 10 feet off the ground, some as high as 25 feet you need a Surefire, a maglight would not have been anywhere near bright enough to get everyone together quickly and safely. The light was bright enough that I was shining it on the ceiling and it lit up the whole stage and front of the set, absolutely perfect. Take that whoever said it was horrible for emergency use. I paid $140 for this light and at that moment it paid for itself. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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#34046 - 11/10/04 04:55 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am assuming the batteries are, then, replaceable -- just as the batteries are replaceable in a Mag-Lite. If it uses Li batteries, why can't you just recharge the batteries?

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#34047 - 11/10/04 05:02 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


What's the difference between an L2 Aviator and the Aviator Brenner? (On the messer forum)

I'm also assuming that if I'm going to pay $150 for a flashlight from Surefire, I should just go with one of their LED models?

Also, what are some of the differentiating factors between an A2 and an L4?

Thanks so much... sorry for the newbish questions.

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#34048 - 11/10/04 05:36 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
CR 123 Lithium cells are not rechargable batteries. There are several different chemistry Lithium cells on the market now. Some of the rechargables need real care to avoid severe problems when charging - hence, almost all Li cell chargers use some form of processor control and/or there are some electronics actually built into some cells.

CR 123 cells are suitable for long term storage (10 years or more). But all rechargables self-discharge over time - much faster than CR 123 or L 92 cells.

HTH clear up the confusion.

Tom

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#34049 - 11/10/04 09:03 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mr Dead,
Thank you for your verbose reply. One other question: how does the switch work on your L4?

Reinhardt

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#34050 - 11/10/04 01:33 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Quote:
Thank you for your verbose reply.


Hmm. Verbose, huh?

Quote:
One other question: how does the switch work on your L4?


Pretty well. (Trying to stay succinct here, you understand). <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />




Ok, sorry, couldn't resist.

The L4 is atypical of Surefire in that it comes stock with a "clicky" switch, which is just push for momentary, push harder for on/off, very intuitive and natural. I liked it.

So, I changed it. Since my last posts I've received and installed a "McGizmo" Aleph tailswitch (McE2S), which gives me two brightness settings, a "low" that is sufficient for short-range work, walking in the dark, or reading a page, and the previous full-out "high".

In momentary mode they may be accessed as before- push the button for low, push harder for high- but for constant-on the cap is twisted.. twist for low, twist further for high.

Generally real-world reports on the stock L4 show about 1.5-2 hours on full power (regulated) before the light starts to diminish, and about the same time of diminishing brightness before it's no longer useful. I haven't tested it yet, but based on info linked to from the candlepowerforums, I expect something in the 8-10 hour range on low.

It increases the usefulness of the light quite a bit.
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#34051 - 11/10/04 04:52 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


It does help. Thank you.

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#34052 - 11/10/04 04:52 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


What model did you order?

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#34053 - 11/10/04 08:27 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mr Dead,
My interpritation of verbose is elaborate. I meant to thank you. But read on dictionary.com that it can also mean the use of excessive words <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Sorry for that.

Reinhardt

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#34054 - 11/10/04 08:37 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Reinhardt,

No apologies necessary. It's certainly no the first time that characteristic has been pointed out to me, and I did not take it as an insult, or very seriously, it was just ambiguous enough to make a joke of it. I apologize if it caused you any embarrassment.

If English is not your native language, then you are to be complimented on your mastery.

I hope the explanations are of some use to you, and I will of course endeavor ("endeavour", where you are) to answer questions to the best of my ability, and I don't mind, but almost everything I know came from perusing the candlepowerforums.com forums for a few weeks. If you continue to be interested in the subject, that's the real source of information.

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#34055 - 11/10/04 09:36 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Klitzke Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 11
I'm fairly new here so this site may have already been posted, but I found it interesting:

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/index1.html

Ken

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#34056 - 11/11/04 04:01 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
gmnstrunr37,
Brenner is a German word for burner, which can mean light or lighting element in that situation. So, where it says Aviator Brenner, he means the Aviator with the bulb on (as well as the LED), where he says Aviator LED, it is just the LEDs on. The Aviator is a two stage light, when you turn it part way on it is just LEDs, when you turn it all the way on it is LEDs in conjunction with a 50 Lumen light bulb.

A little Deutsch/Surefire lesson for you. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#34057 - 11/11/04 04:12 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Got it... thanks. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Still trying to figure out whether the $160, $165, or $185 price tag is worth it. I know the L4, L2, and A2 are damned bright, but my question is whether the brightness (even if it's a potential 15x increase) is worth a 15x increase in price (compared to a Mini Mag AA).

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#34058 - 11/11/04 04:31 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
I was the same way when I bought it. I kept thinking, "Do I really need a $140 flashlight?" But, after carrying it for a while I have been amazed how usefull it is. I really think I use it more then my knife/multi-tool. The part that I can switch between LED and bright bulb is what I really like, sometimes you only need a little light and sometimes you want to make it look like daylight. Also, since LEDs don't burn out in anywhere near the amount of time bulbs do chances are I will never be stuck without some kind of light as long as I keep the batteries fresh.
If you really arn't sure still then check out the Surefire G2 (I think it is). It is only like $30 and is actually a little brighter then my A2 (but, isn't LED), the body is made from a composite plastic which makes it weigh less and makes it better in the cold then steel.

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#34059 - 11/11/04 07:15 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mr Dead,
Your answers continue to provide more insight into the specifics of Surefire torches. They justify the high cost. So it definitely helps me, thanks.

English is not my native language. Thank you for the complement.

Reinhardt

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#34060 - 11/11/04 08:25 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Don't tell Surefire (they can dealers for discounting), but you can find them cheaper.

Right at the moment, the L4 can be had for $120:

Botach sale

Of course, there are plenty of xenon, Luxeon 3 and even Luxeon 5 lights available elsewhere for much less, if it's just the brightness that you value. Currently popular are the tiny Nuwai Quantum III [$40-50] and the 2-stage Streamlight 2L LED 3W Luxeon [$67.50].

Quantum III review

Streamlight for sale
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#34061 - 11/11/04 01:22 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay; what, then, separates one of these lights from a Surefire? Or an Inova X5?

(Still trying to justify, justify, justify!)

Thanks again.

Xing

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#34062 - 11/11/04 01:40 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Where can you order the McGizmo switch? And is it as waterproof as the Surefire itself?

Mr. Mean, why did you decide on the L4? The deal is looking mighty good right now... I'm trying to figure out if I want an L4, L2, or A2 (still). How long should the A2 bulb last?

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#34063 - 11/11/04 02:52 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Xing,

I have the Inova X5 (the HA-III, sterile, subdued version), and there's no comparison to the L4. The 5 5mm LEDs in the X5 don't put out anywhere near the light of the L4. Shone on the wall, where the beams overlap, the light from the X5 is barely visible. It's about comparable to my modified L4 on "low", maybe a little less bright, though it's hard to compare since the tints are much different.

The X5 is, however, reportedly very efficient at sucking the last bit of life out of CR123 cells, and several people report getting hours and hours of further use in the X5 out of cells that are no longer useful in the more powerful lights. That can be valuable, especially if the "primary" light is for critical use, and you change cells frequently so as not to be caught near "empty".

The specs on the Streamlight look similar, but you'll find that they feel much different. Next to the surefire "E" series, the Streamlight feels bulky, heavy, and a bit clunky... and too large (especially the head) for convenient pocket carry. The quality of the Streamights is very good as flashlights go, it's just not in the same league with Surefire.

A lot of what you're paying for on the Surefire is details. The anodizing is HA (hard anodizing) III (type 3), which is many times harder than earlier version- apparently SF has demonstrated this by using the (knurled) SF body to actually saw through a "normal" aluminum flashlight. The SF has a pyrex lens, which is both heat resistant (all these tiny, powerful lights can get pretty hot) sturdy, and scratch resistant. The LED is the Luxeon 5, brighter and more even than the Luxeon 3 series. The reflector is better engineered- you'll be amazed how even the light beam is from the LED lights. Machining is very tight and precise througout. The "clicky" switch is very positive and intuitive.

By contrast, both the Streamlight and Nuwai QIII are Type 2 anodized (like, say, a mag-lite) which wears much faster. The LEDS are Luxeon 3s, and almost always have a marked blue or violet tint. The regulators will be much simpler, probably voltage-only. The switches on both operate a little differently than SF- when you push it DOWN, nothing happens.. when you let it back UP, the light comes on. No big deal unless you need a "momentary" flash, or to flash Morse code or something, then it might be a problem. And on and on...

All of these are fine flashlights, none are perfect. Whether some or any of them are worth the cost is not something I can determine for someone else. The Streamlight, for example, costs less than half of the typical street price of an L4, and probably povides 80 percent of the functionality... and for 95 percent of the users, that 20 percent won't make any difference at all.

One disadvantage of the L4 is that the beam doesn't carry as far as incandescents, and not as far as most Luxeon 3 lights.. it's more of a "flood" as opposed to a "spot". I'm in city and suburbs a lot more than out in the country, so that's to my advantage, but some dismiss it on those grounds.

Please do check out the excellent series of photos in the thread that Burncycle pointed out here:

German Flashlight Thread Photos

The text is in German, which doesn't help me much (it's not much better piped through Babelfish, either), but the light used is in the lower left of each photo in red.
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#34064 - 11/11/04 03:39 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
You can order through the "Sandwich Shoppe" (it's a pun):

Sandwich Shoppe

Or presumably, though the forum of that name on the candlepower forums, or you can order directly from the maker, one Don McLeish, who goes by "McGizmo" and has his own forum on candlepower.

Here's the thread to actually order from him, be sure to follow the instructions in the first message:

McE2S Thread

Quote:
is it as waterproof as the Surefire itself?

Don builds a custom line of flashlights called the "Aleph" series that is more highly regarded and more expensive than the Surefires, but parts interchange with Surefire. I don't think you have to worry about quality.

On the "body" end of the switch, the cap seems to compress the o-ring identically to the original cap. On the "switch" end, the rubber capsule enclosing the switch seems identical to Surefire's, and people buy them to replace Surefire's.

The only real difference in waterproofness I can think of is that the L4 "clicky" can be tightened further than the Aleph tailcap, which turns on the threads as part of it's function- but that's the way most of the SF tailcaps work as well.

Quote:
why did you decide on the L4? The deal is looking mighty good right now... I'm trying to figure out if I want an L4, L2, or A2 (still). How long should the A2 bulb last?

I think the xenons are rated at about 20 hours MTBF. That seems short, but not many people really use them that much. The L4 LED is rated at 500-1000 hours, very short for an LED, but still- it's 25-50 bulb changes. By the time I use that, there will be two or three new generations of LEDs out.

I was impressed with how bright and small the L4 was, and since I expect to carry it for at least 3 hours a day, every working day, I wanted to keep it compact. The L2 is very bright as well, and is regulated on "low" for excellent battery life, but is more of a "spot" vs a "flood" (which can be good or bad), and is an inch longer and about an ounce heavier. The parts are also much less interchangeable for custom/modded parts- the tailswitch and head are electronically integrated.

That having been said, you get SF quality and 2-stage operation for a lot less than the L4 plus an aftermarket switch.
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#34065 - 11/11/04 06:38 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Y'know, on second thought....

Others posting negative experiences with Botach on candlepower reminded me of my own. Even though someone I have been communicating with just got his from Botach with no problems (if a lot more slowly), I'm sorry I mentioned this. My intention was to show that discounts could be found, not to promote this seller.

I bought my L4 here:

Ultimate Passage/Surefire

You can see the price is less that $10 more. I ordered on a Sunday evening, and received shipping notices both from the dealer and UPS on Monday morning... and it arrived right on schedule two days later.

I'd gladly pay the little bit extra again to avoid any chance of repeating my experience with Botach.

There are others selling at the same price, but no experience with them.

Sorry about that, all.
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#34066 - 11/11/04 06:51 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


So Botach is not a reputable dealer? Why not just order from surefire.com?


Edited by gmnstrunr37 (11/11/04 06:52 PM)

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#34067 - 11/11/04 07:36 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
I had an unfavorable experience with them many years ago. Apparently others have as well... although many have had no problems with repeated orders.

You can certainly order from surefire.com. L4 = $160 there vs. $128 U.P. vs $120 Botach.


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#34068 - 11/11/04 07:40 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
brian Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Texas
I have ordered from them once and it was about the worst experience I have ever had dealing with a retailer.
_________________________
Learn to improvise everything.

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#34069 - 11/12/04 02:30 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks.


Any suggestions on deciding between an LED light and the A2? I think I want an L2 or A2; I think the L2 is a ttlie too big for me; but at the same time, the A2 is more expensive (why?).

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#34070 - 11/12/04 06:16 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
The L2 is just LED, it has one LED in it that can be selected between basically a high and low. The A2 has a regular bulb in it as well as 3 smaller LEDS. The L2 is really designed to be used on the low setting with having the ability to switch to a high, the A2 is like a regular surefire designed more to be used most of the time with the high on, but has the option of a low which is usefull for reading or if the batteries arn't powerfull enough to run the Bulb, the LEDs will still work for a while after. Some people also prefer having a regular bulb light instead of just LED since it casts more of a natural bright light. There is just something I like about being able to switch between LED and bulb, instead of only having one or the other. However, most do not want to have to deal with a burnt out bulb, so an all LED light is best for them. One thing that I really like about the A2 is the bulb acts as a spot while the LEDs act more as a flood, so you have a very wide light that still has reach, it is great for hiking since you can see right in front of you and way up the trail at the same time. Anyway, The choice really is a matter of personal opinion based on what you think you would appriciate more. (After all, when you spend that much on a flashlight you want it to work exactly the way you need/want it to)

By the way, Surefire has a new light coming out called the U2, that will retail for about $270. This is all I could find on it:

"Surefire is coming out with a new LED model named the U2. A 5watt, single Luxeon with 6 different user selectable modes of operation."

"Yes, we a aware of the need for a variable power 5 watt LED light, and that's why we have built the SureFire Ultra. The Ultra is a 2x SF123 cell flashlight with a 5 watt Luxeon Star and a 6 position hall effect power control ring. The power level is adjustable over 100:1 range, giving 5 watts at the top end and 50 mW at the bottom. Although this light is not available yet we did show prototypes at this year's SHOT show. The production light about the same size as out M3. I'm finalizing the electronics currently."

So, it is basically an L2, but more selectable meaning you will be able to get a longer runtime by setting the flashlight at the exact level you need it to be.

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#34071 - 11/12/04 01:29 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, Paul, for your reply.

And indeed thanks to everyone who has already posted in this thread. I really appreciate it. I'm definitely not your caliber when it comes to survival ideas or technologies, so I appreciate the help you're all giving.

I'm reasonably sure I would want an A2. However, the 50 lumens of brightness does scare me a little bit -- as Surefire says, I'd like to have around 60. That's why I originally wanted to go for the L4. The problem with the L4, naturally, is that it doesn't have two modes. I don't want to have to blind myself by using one of the brightest flashlights on the market.

So, as a more direct question: if I am about 200 feet away from a building, will the L4 be able to illuminate a spot on the building? Is the A2 bright enough to do so?

(I looked at the pictures on messerforums.... the A2 seemed dimmer in the garage but all right outside.)

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#34072 - 11/12/04 02:01 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
I briefly considered the A2, and bought something sort of similar, the Streamlight Twin Task L2, which also uses a xenon bulb for "high" and three LEDs around it for "low", and is supposed to be comparable.

I don't find it so- it's high is nowhere near my L4 high and it's is very dim next to the L4 low. After receiving the L4, I pretty well decided that I had bought my last incandescent. There may be some things that LEDs don't do as well, but this will certainly hold me until they do- which I don't think will be long. Maybe the A2 is more impressive, not sure... but I'll be the low is REALLY low. They sell it with colored LEDs for pilots to preserve their night vision, so you know it's designed for reading charts in the dark, not lighting up rooms.

For me, the short life and fragility of the bulbs (especially if the light is dropped while on) is just a killer for emergency use, now that we have tech that doesn't do that. I also don't find the tint more "natural", it just looks really orange-yellow next to the L4 (and now the Q-III) with artifacts from the filament (shadows) that the LEDs don't have.

But that's a very personal thing.

As for the U2, I was excited when I first heard about it, but disappointed when I actually saw a picture of a late prototype:

(third one down)

(there are other pictures of this prototype, and one other, in threads on candlepower).

It's just too big (not pocketable IMHO), too expensive ($270), and more complicated than it needs to be (you really need 10 levels?). I think it may be a step in the wrong direction.

Again, I think my 2-stage L4 will do me just fine until something a LOT better comes along.

I just received the Nuwai Q-IIIs last night, and this will almost certainly be my backup light. It uses the same CR123 cells as the L4 (albeit one at a time), is almost in the same ballpark as far as brightness (at least 3/4 as bright), and is about half the size of an AA Mini-maglite, small enough to ride next to a cell phone on my belt and go completely unnoticed. Nice beam too, and not very expensive. These two, the L4 with 2-stage and the Nuwaii Q-III, will be my commute carry for some time to come.
_________________________

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#34073 - 11/12/04 02:32 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Quote:
The problem with the L4, naturally, is that it doesn't have two modes.


Well, mine does. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And if you go with the McE2E switch, you get to pick how bright you want the lower mode to be (vs. battery life).

Then there's the L2, of course.

Quote:
I don't want to have to blind myself by using one of the brightest flashlights on the market.

It isn't really that. Some of the law enforcement 9v Surefires are putting out 3-4 times as much light as the L4. Even the L2 is rated at 100 lumens on high (though a number of folks seem to doubt that).

I think you might be getting the wrong impression- these lights are amazingly bright for their tiny size (all the ones we're talking about are comparable in size to a Mini-Maglite), but they don't compare to some larger, non-pocketable lights.

I considered for some time before buying the 2-stage switch for the L4, and my decision was based on battery life more than usability. It could be too bright for, say, working in an engine compartment with reflective surfaces around, your eyes have to adjust before you can use it for reading, and it will SERIOUSLY kill your night vision- but it's not blinding, unless you're looking straight into it.

Quote:
So, as a more direct question: if I am about 200 feet away from a building, will the L4 be able to illuminate a spot on the building? Is the A2 bright enough to do so?

Again, I think you might be under a misapprehension. I can't say for sure, but I doubt that any of the lights we're talking about would do a great job in this scenario. 200 feet is two-thirds of a football field, "building" implies some ambient light level. We're talking about tiny lights that put out maybe 5-8 times as much light as an old-fashioned 2 D cell flashlight. That's fairly impressive, but would you expect 5-8 old-fashioned flashlights to illuminate a spot on a building 200 feet away? Well, maybe a little.

I would guess that the A2 would probably do a little better at this, as the L4 is more of a flood, they refer to it as a "wall of light"... but if this is a real criterion, you might want to keep looking awhile. I'm not sure either one will be satisfactory.
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#34074 - 11/12/04 04:05 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for your detailed reply, Mr. Dead. Here's what I'm thinking.

The A2 is appealing to me bcause of its duality. As I mentioned before, I do not want to buy a light that I cannot readily use in the dark and not be blinded by its brilliance. When I climb into bed, the lights in the room are off. In order to set the alarm, however, I need some sort of light to see what I'm doing. Currently, a Mini-Mag AA is doing the job perfectly well. But as to whether it's bright enough to put light in some of the areas I need it to put light, whether on stage, on the campus, or in the woods, well, the short answer is no. The D-cell I have (at home) is quite bright and will do the job. Probelm is, it's about the least protable light you can buy. (Not quite, but you get the idea. Carrying around a 5 pound, 15" stick on the side of your hip is not pratical.) Hence, I'm looking for a light that is basically the size of a Mini-Mag AA but is brighter.

I stumbled across the L4. It's amazing. I like the fact that it's an LED light; the bulbs last longer, and, as you mentioned, they are less prone to impact damage. However, I'm apprehensive about buying it because it is a flood-type lamp -- which I learned from you -- and I'm not sure I always want a flood of light going on. Take Paul's original post: if I were in his spot but had an L4 instead of his A2, would the L4 be able to light the ceiling? Or would it merely cast a little bit of light up there? The second thing that bothers me about the L4 is that it's not dual-mode. I would like to have a light that is capable of both low- and high- beams. I'm not too keen on the idea of buying a $50 accessory to add to an $160 light; $210 for a flashlight is seriously pushing it.

So I looked (and am looking) at the L2 and A2. The A2 bothers me because it still retains the incandescant lamp. I would like to get away from those if possible. At the same time, it is smaller than the L2 and I think I like that. It appears to be the same size as my MiniMag, which is exactly the size I would prefer. However, its output doesn't seem to match that of the L4, and quite honestly, that's a pretty big turn-off. Will be it brighter than the MiniMag? I'm sure it is. But if there's a brighter light on the market, and there is, I'm sure I can do better. The $185 price tag on the A2 doesn't help, either.

So the only apparent light left is the L2. It has an LED, which I want; a two-stage switch, which is a great feature; and is about the same size as the MM. However, it is still new to the market and the price I would have to pay is $165 -- more than the $150 for the A2 (on the website you mentioned) and more than the $128 for the L4.

So that's what I'm thinking about the whole matter. What is most important to me is having a light that can illuminate a sport (like a MM can) at distances of less than, say, fifty feet. I think I exaggeraed the 200 feet. No need for a light (in a spot) that far away. (It's called a laser...) I tihnk the best example to use would be Pauls's. Again, if he had an L4, would it light up the ceiling clearly.

I'd really like to buy a L4, but I'm just worried that its lack of duality will one day blind me when I'm not expecting it. I could always keep the MM, but if I do that, then what's the point of buying a light in the first place? This one is supposed to replace -- not so much add -- to my MM.

Thanks again for listening.

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#34075 - 11/12/04 05:03 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
No problem listening, all of your concerns are valid... just not sure what we can do to help.

FWIW, any of these lights are plenty for 25 feet or 50 feet in a dark room. Differences would come into play, say, for 50 feet with ambient light from streetlights keeping your eyes from adjusting, trying to illuminate dark corners or under cars. For that, a spot is probably better. For inside, I'd almost always go with a flood. For 25 feet, I'd probably go for a flood anyway. There's a certain amount of safety in being able to see more of your surroundings, instead of just a spot, however bright- but maybe that's just me. On the other hand, a spot is clearly better in fog or smoke... though it doesn't take a great deal of either to render either light pretty useless.

IF you felt confident to do it, I'd suggest getting an E series 2-cell body (SF L4 or E2e, Aleph, Balrog, whatever, $20-35), a 2-stage tailcap($50), and a NEW style SF KL1 head (list $56), which is LED, slightly less power than the L4 (it's a Lux 3), but more focused, more "spot" than "flood". Total cost would probably be right around that of the the L4, with more focus and 2 stages. All of these parts can be had, though "new style" KL1 heads are a little scarce right now.

Or, you could experiment a bit with lower-priced lights (Streamline, Nuwai, SF G2) to really determine what you like and what you don't. $35-70 might be cheaper than a mistake in a more expensive light, and anythiing you don't like can always be sold. I'm quite taken with the Q-III at 2 for$80 shipped, it has a beam similar to the L4 at, I'd guess, about 3/4 the power. It falls short of SF in a few ways, but it's very nice (Nuwai makes several of the Streamlight models), and smaller than anything SF has for EDC.

Keep in mind that there's no real point in trying for the "perfect" light. It doesn't exist, everything is a compromise, and whatever you get will probably be obsolete in a year or two (though useful for much longer). You're just trying to find something you'll be really happy with for that year or two or three, and won't regret buying if you really need it in the interim.

On the other hand, if you keep holding out for the pefect light, it will certainly save you some money for awhile yet. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________

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#34076 - 11/12/04 06:49 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
I thought the A2 is fairly unique in that the bulb is also fed regulated voltage and does a "soft start" that avoids the violent thermal shock of unregulated incandescent flashlights. Seems like I read two consequences to that: 1) Not the best light for blinking morse code 2) No warning of battery exhaustion by gradual dimming of lamp - which is a Janus of a feature.

I don't own an A2 and I might be confusing this with another flashlight... anyway, the A2 is the most interesting Surefire to me.

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#34077 - 11/12/04 09:31 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks again for the well-thought out reply. I will take a look at the Nuwai to give it a look see. I'm thinking I might try to demo an A2 and L4 sometime in the future just to see how they compare (in actual use, not in pictures). I'm leaning more toward the A2... but I'll give it some time and see how things work out. I'll definitely be back to post more questions if they come up! Thanks again, all!

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#34078 - 11/12/04 09:45 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Just thought I'd link in a couple of pix of the Nuwai Q-III for size:

A good "glamour" shot (mine has no markings):



So, how big is it, really?




Not very.

Next to a AA Mini-Maglite:



Even so, it seems smaller than the L4 mostly because it's short- it's almost exactly the same diameter in the head as the L4, and almost 3/4 as long. All the lights under discussion are smaller than you would think from photos with nothing to show scale.
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#34079 - 11/12/04 09:57 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Klitzke Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 11
I saw this link:

http://www.theledlight.com/opalecinstallation.html

on another thread here. Since you already have the Mini-Mag, you could convert it to L.E.D. to tide you over until you decide what to spend the big bucks on. I just got my order and new life and reliability for my Mini-Mag.

Ken

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#34080 - 11/12/04 10:11 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
rbruce Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 153
Loc: California
I have one of these also that I got at http://www.brightguy.com/ . It is great. I love my mini-mag now. Definately worth it.


Robert

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#34081 - 11/13/04 05:15 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Paul, if you had had an L4 in that incident, do you believe it would have had sufficient lighting to cover the situation?

Exactly how noticeable is the 15 lumen difference between the L4 and A2?

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#34082 - 11/13/04 05:28 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
I think an L4 would have had to have been used differently, instead of putting it on the stage ceiling I would have shined it in the direction of the people. Being it is more of a flood it would have been used differently. As to the 15 lumens it is noticable, however I don't think it is really a hindrance.

I think the best thing for you to do is go to your local Surefire dealer and play a round with a few different lights to see what you like.

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#34083 - 11/13/04 07:23 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think I will end up going with an A2 or L2. I'm going home for my Thanksgiving break, at which point I'll head up to the Surefire dealer up there and try to get a better feel for what I want. My thoughts regarding the A2 is that it's still an incandescent, which thus far has proven to be the better spot-type light, and has two modes for better battery life and power. The L2 is great, too, but I haven't seen many reviews on it (one, actually). But given that it is also what I need, with the added ruggedness of an LED, I will definitely look into it.

Thanks for all the help. It is truly appreciated. I'll be around again if questions suddenly arise.

Xing

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#34084 - 11/13/04 07:25 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Very good point -- my problem is (as it was when earlier I wanted to purchase one of these) that I'd have to buy a new Mini Mag. Mine is over ten years old. And while a $10 +$20 investment is far cheaper than the Surefire, I'm not interested in buying a new Mag just to mod it. Seems kind of counterintuitive to me... but that's just me.

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#34085 - 11/13/04 07:55 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
You're welcome- it was probably a lot more information than you really needed, but I hope it helps.

I'm probably prejudiced. After buying and playing with the latest generation of LED lights, I just have no interest in incandescents.
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#34086 - 11/13/04 08:01 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Well, you could get the TerraLux MinStar2 conversion old review here .

This one is simple - remove bulb and reflector, plug in module like a bulb, add new reflector, screw back together. It is much brighter than the Opalec NewBeam. I have one of each and like them both very much. The MiniStar2 is much brighter than the NewBeam and fits ANY Minmag, old or new.

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#34087 - 11/13/04 08:07 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Do you know of a good retailer for this lamp module? I searched on Google and came up with quite a few... any ideas to which are reputable?

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#34088 - 11/13/04 08:28 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
I *think* I got it from PocketLights http://www.pocketlights.com/ledbulbs_for_mini_maglite.asp
but it's possible I got it from another vendor.

Edit: Yep, that's where I purchased both the MiniStar2 and the NewBeam.


Edited by AyersTG (11/13/04 08:48 PM)

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#34089 - 11/13/04 11:43 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


How much brighter would you say the LED'ed Mag is than the regular Mini-Mag AA? Do you have pictures comparing the beams? I ask because I don't want to spend $25 on it if the change in brightness is minimal.


Edited by gmnstrunr37 (11/13/04 11:44 PM)

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#34090 - 11/14/04 12:30 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
Arrrrgh!!!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I was quite happy with my SF 6P.

And now, after reading this thread, I am thinking about an L2 ...
During the next few days, I will be looking at it, on SF web site.
And in a few weeks, I will want one....
and then I will NEED one....
and then I will be obliged to buy one ..............

I hate you ...........<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Alain

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#34091 - 11/14/04 12:34 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Don't worry... I feel the same way...


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#34092 - 11/14/04 12:41 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Ahhh - apples and figs, I guess. You should be able to dig up someone's pictures - I'll snoop around later and see if I can find some. First off, the camera does not do justice to ordinary incandescent vs white LED. The Mk I eyeball is a better tester. Anway, the total light with the MiniStar2 appears to be greater than the unmodified light. It certainly is more useful and the color rendition is far superior. Throw is a little less, but for a single 1w LED, it has good throw.

I did a simple test for myself with 3 minimags, all with fresh batteries from the same package. Where our Scout Troop meets, there is a long corridor between our meeting room in the basement and an identical meeting room on the other side of the building basement. 90 minute-rated doors at either end. It ACTUALLY is the equipment room for the HVAC, maintenance folks work area, etc. Chain link cage around the big machinery makes it like a long dark tunnel with spooky things off to the side.

I went in there, lights off, with three minimags - regular, Opalec NewBeam, and MiniStar2. Stygian darkness. Spooky enough for Hollywood. I did pair-wise comparisons for about 30 minutes, because that's the proper way to sort out 3 or more items. I would close my eyes, turn 2 on, cover both beams (one left hand, one right hand), and then with my eyes open, try first one, then the other. Walk around/through, "what's that stuff over there", etc. No brainer: MiniStar2 by a landslide. Opalec NewBeam very practical - I liked it a lot - but not as much useful reach to the dark recesses of the mechanicals from the caged walkway. Original? Useful for pinpointing the lightswitch from 30 feet away (the others lit it up fine, but not like a pointer). Major creepy with the original - like walking while looking thru a keyhole. Took another Scouter back there and had her try 'em out same way. She picked Opalec NewBeam very slightly over the MiniStar2 and hated the original. Thought her Photon II would be as bright, went and got it, and was flabbergasted at the huge increase in illumination the 2xAA conversions vs the Photon. See, our eyes adapt to available light... nothing wrong with the Photon.

Here's the way I call it: The Opalec NewBeam transforms the minimag into altogether another type of hand torch - hard to compare, but far more practical than original. The MiniStar2 is an evolution of the minimag - same sort of functions as the original, but better, plus huge increase in usefulness due to sidespill. Much better - there is quite a bit of side spill. You can use a significant amount of your field of vision with the MiniStar2 and about zero with the unmodified minmag - it's all in the center (flood focusing a minimag is almost a waste of time, IMO). For someone who already has a minimag and likes it, the MiniStar2 is the way to go, IMHO. Mind you, I like the Opalec as well, but it's really not as bright and throw is not more than one needs to safely walk at a brisk pace.

If you're expecting output like a D cell maglight, forget it - these are 2xAA lights. For all the sneering at them, D Mags still are in the upper echelon of hand torches for throw. As I wrote previously, I dropped an EverLED bulb in two of mine and absolutly love the conversion - they really reach out there, almost as far as a bulb (near as I can tell). Changing those back is as easy as changing a bulb (but why would I ever want to?)

If you want to really reach out there inexpensively in something about the size of a minimag, get a Pelican M6 or Surefire Nitrolon - side-by-side so far I kinda prefer the Pelican myself <horrified gasp - heresay!>. But an ordinary D cell maglight still beats them - honest. After the novelty of a hot-running mini flamethrower settles in a bit - those D cell mags are impossible to beat for the price. Heck, they're hard to beat even tossing in the cost of an EverLED conversion, and what better <bump> in the middle of the night torch than a big ol' maglight running a blistering LED bulb conversion? Something to whack the bumper with... but hardly a handy or discrete torch. And it sucks holding one that has cold-soaked to 0 def-F in your vehicle over the last week... (I know about insulating covers for them - I use them)

My EDC is an ARC AAA-P. My employer-supplied torches are a pair of mags - one mini and one 2xD. 90% of the time at work I use the ARC - it is *always* in my RH pants pocket. 8% of the time it's the minimag because it has more throw than my ARC. 2% of the time it's the D-mag, and I use it conspicuously those times when I *want* onlookers to see I have a club in my hand, not because I need that much light. Or because I suspect something/one is going to go <bump> when I enter an abandoned building...

Point is, if I convert the minimag at work to a MiniStar2, I would for sure use that one +90% of the time and save my ARC for true emergencies. For me, the MiniStar2 is just plain better than the bulb for the tasks that I use a minimag for.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it...

(You just gotta plunge in here somewhere, but I warn you, flashlight technology is addicting)

Tom (I'm literate and can spell, honest - I just can't type for beans!)


Edited by AyersTG (11/14/04 12:50 AM)

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#34093 - 11/14/04 01:15 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Riveting reply. Thanks. Okay, well, after I get the okay from my treasurer (my parents), I might go ahead and buy the ministar. It seems like a good enough idea to me; I will still attempt to demo the SF as well.

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#34094 - 11/14/04 02:25 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy
rbruce Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 153
Loc: California
Frenchy,
I know how you feel. For about the last week I have really wanted to get either a M4 or M6 from Surefire. That would be some serious light. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Robert

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#34095 - 11/14/04 02:49 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Oh, great... all that work, and first he's going incandescent, and now he's going with a Mag, of all things. You teach someone everything you know, and find out they still don't know diddly. Very discouraging.

"Luke... come over to the dark side, Luke..."

May as well go back to tin lanterns. Or how about flaming torches? Talk about throw, it not only lights UP stuff at a distance, it LIGHTS stuff at a distance....

Maybe we can find a great deal on cardboard-tube Boy Scout flashlights from the '50s! Hey, a group buy on leaky carbon-zinc D cells!

Sigh... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________

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#34096 - 11/14/04 04:42 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Heh. See, he ALREADY has a minimag... I agree with you about LED over incandescant for everything but throw - there are a couple of hotshot LS V's that can reach out there, but generally throw still belongs to incandescant - my solution is MORE FLASHLIGHTS! The A2 does both pretty well.

Borrowed from Doug P's site and rounded to nearest whole numbers:

Model / Relative Throw / Relative Total Output

Surefire 10x Dominator Hi / 146 / 525
Mag 4 D / 99 / 38
Mag 3 D / 79 / 23
Pelican M6 Incandescent (old style) / 79 / 57
Surefire M3 Millenium Combat Light / 79 / 100
Surefire G2 (P60 lamp) / 59 / 52
Surefire M2 (P61 lamp) / 59 / 70
Surefire A2 Incand. Lamp / 45 / 58 / LEDs / 6 / 5
Pelican M6 LED / 38 / 21
Surefire L5 / 37 / 60
Surefire E2 / 36 / 40
Eveready 99 cent 2 D / 30 / 10
MiniMag / 30 / 6
Nuwai Q3 / 28 / 19
Surefire L4 / 23 / 58
MiniStar2 / 19 / 15
Mag Solitaire / 10 / 1
Opalec NewBeam / 6 / 4
ARC AAA-P / 5 / 2

Comments: M6 new style does not have quite as much throw, but as much or more output - the 3-D can slightly out-throw it now, but for sure the M6 has a lot more total output. As for my Minimag opinion - check the Minimag VS MinStar2 numbers - 2/3 as much throw, but 2 1/2 times the total output and a lot longer runtime... and runtimes can matter to me - the ARC AAA-P actually beats the snot out of a Solitare for throw after 20-30 minutes runtime - using the Solitare weakened battery.

Wish Doug would put these numbers up for the EverLED conversions...

If they were finished with HA-III and came standard with LEDs, we would not be bad-mouthing Mag *quite* as much... and I haven't purchased a Maglight for, oh, two or three years - maybe more. They ARE pretty durable, and for the cost... a lot of performance. OTOH, bulbs break - brother, do I know that!

I've "graduated" away from Mags for personal use, but it made a lot of sense to convert the ones I already owned. I need a couple more EverLEDs...

Guns, knives, torches - will the madness never end... <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

FWIW, I think you own some awesome torches.

Tom

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#34097 - 11/14/04 10:14 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
I'am more and more convinced I will soon need a SF L2, but in the meantime....

I have, in some forgotten drawer, a 2-D Maglite I was about to give away or sell on Ebay.
What I don't like about it :
1) uneven light beam, with "black rings"
2) too heavy, too big, too cumbersome for backpacking or EDC
3) delicate bulb (same pb with SF 6P or G2)


If I could convert it, it would still be heavy (but that's not a pb if it's for home/car use + could be useful as a club).
But what about the "eveness" of the beam ? Is that pb solved with a LEDCorp Epion or a TerraLux Magstar 2 (found on http://www.pocketlights.com/) ???


TIA
_________________________
Alain

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#34098 - 11/14/04 01:49 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
I don't seriously have a grudge against Maglites. For quite awhile there, they were the sturdiest available, and practically the only sturdy flashlights available.

I had a 6D that I kept mostly for caveman-club value in a campground that got a little rowdy from time to time, where "weapons" were strictly prohibited. It's actual value as a club was doubtful, as it weighed a ton, but it looked impressive. After not being used for some time I found the alkalines had leaked and fused permanently into the tube. Somehow I was never tempted to replace it with another.

One Mini bought it in similar fashion, but I still have one old Mini and some solitaires around- until the next flea market, anyway.

I have never seen the A2 in person, so the nearest I can compare it with is the Streamlight TT 2L. Doug P's charts show that both it AND the Minimag out-throw the L4. Well, maybe.

Comparisons are difficult. To the eye, the L4 is very white, and makes the others look yellow and dim, almost amber. I'm sure the human eye/brain has tint biases, probably pretty complex ones, and I'm not at all sure a light meter is capable of replicating all that. It is certainly true that the dark night outside seems to "swallow" the LED light more over distance, but even that's hard to judge subjectively, since the LEDs are lighting up your immediate surroundings more, it makes the distance seem darker.

Whatever- I've played with a bunch of these lights under various conditions, and came away more than satisfied with the L4 for my use (especially with the 2-stage switch). No doubt as we get into the 4th and 5th generation of white LEDs, less compromise will be required, but for typical urban/suburban use (as opposed to out in the country), it seems to be a good compromise for now. The Q-III has a similar in beam, but not as powerful, less spill, and a smaller hot spot. They seem a good team, the tiny Q-III riding on my belt as a backup to the L4 in the pack.

Anyone who followed the thread on candlepower knows that the original motivation for all was the desire for a good emergency light for two long daily rides in dark underground tunnels of the Washinton DC Metro, not the safest place in either history or future prospects.

For that use, at least, the reliability of the LED certainly outweighs long-distance throw. I came away from the search with more and better than I expected, and shortly intend to retire the entire issue until technology comes up with something notably more interesting.
_________________________

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#34099 - 11/14/04 04:19 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Alain,

I don't know the answer to your question, but the folks on CPF will. My only experience is with the EverLED conversion unit, which has gotten top marks from all reviews I've read. The EverLED exceeded my expectations.

Doug has a review of the EverLED, MaxStar2 and several others here. I would add to his EverLED review that the "bulb" now comes standard with reverse polarity protection for those few wierdo flashlights out there that use reverse polarity.

So far I haven't found a review of the Epion. Both the EverLED and the Epion are overdriven; I suspect the Epion is overdriven more and may be a little brighter, but I simply don't know - sorry! The EverLED is a side emitter and the Epion looks like a High Dome (I think). Ask the folks at CPF...

It's probably not important to you, but the Epion must be purchased for a specific voltage (number of cells), just like regular bulbs. You get 2 cell version, you must only use it in a 2 cell flashlight. But the EverLED works in anything from 1 to 6 cell flashlights. I use the EverLED in both 2 and 3 cell Maglights because I have both around here in the house and some vehicles.

Wish I could be more helpful...

Regards,

Tom




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#34100 - 11/14/04 04:26 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know it's not exactly refreshing to spend that much time and research typing what you know, only to have me "go" with a MM. I'm not entirely certain about that yet. I'd still like to know what the Surefires are capable of, and until I hold one in my hand and shine it at something, I won't ever know. (The same goes for the MiniStar. I won't ever know what the MiniStar looks like unless I buy it.) I'm not saying that I will go with an incandescent; simply putting it, I want an L2 but no one seems to have any for under $165. If I can get a $22 discount on the L4 and a $35 on the A2 from the sites you mentioned, you'd think they'd at least HAVE the L2 ready for purchase.

As I mentioned before -- I haven't decided what I'm going to buy. I really like the idea of an A2. But it seems to take a step back, almost, in that the source of its brightness is still a bulb. It'll take a test drive for me to figure it all out. I'll try to be patient and let actual results help me, not whim. Whim is what got me to where I am now; testing will finalize my decision.

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#34101 - 11/14/04 07:14 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just catching up on this thread this morning, and pardon my indiscretion (I'm not as "into" flashlights as some, although some of my interests may be completely off the wall), if we (I read through the entire thread) spend this much time, effort, and MONEY on a flashlight, how is it, that we can't come up with a solution to the Middle-East problem <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />?
No offence meant, please take this comment with a grain of salt.

Troy

P.S. I guess there are hundreds of solutions to the Middle-East problem, it's just that nobody can agree on which one to use (kind of like the flash-light thing, huh?). Every body have a great rest of the week-end.

Troy

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#34102 - 11/14/04 07:17 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Hey, just kidding- it's important that you be happy with your decision. No one else has to live with it. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Whatever you decide to do will probably work out fine, and there are a lot of interesting developments coming, I think. It's not a lifetime commitment or anything.
_________________________

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#34103 - 11/14/04 07:30 PM Where/When/Why I use flashlights (short version)
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Mr D,

Yeah, what you said... and again, a pair of awesome light sources you're carrying there...

I have never been a fan of flashlights in the woods. I'll post separately why; for now, suffice to say that personally I carry flashlights for emergencies - rural or urban - not because I need or want them away from the city lights. On close scrutiny, most of my work use of flashlights is closer to emergency type applications than anything else.

What I need most of the time in a flashlight is task/mission lighting in an urban settting. And what I need is a light that gives me most of my field of vision illuminated, not something to shine on a building across the Mississippi River. I do not like or need or want something that drives my vision to a single small hotspot and leaves the other 98% of my natural field of vision in darkness. There are close-up tasks, like on machinery or building components, where a spot is OK because for a while that's what I'm focusing on. But a flood will also do the job most of the time in those cases.

Throw is relative in most legitimate need urban settings. Set aside Fire, Police, and other emergency services uses; those are specialized work needs. Us ordinary citizens need to be prepared to cope with power outages in dark places / times of day. Maybe render First Aid. Move to a safer location. Check on framuses under the hoods of our vehicles or the wheel covers on a flat tire. Brighten dim corners of parking garages to make the human cockroaches scurry way. Stuff like that really doesn't require a laser-like flashlight beam and actually most of those uses are done poorly with a spot as compared to a semi-flood or flood.

Put all that together and enter the high-powered LED flashlights - almost all of them excell at these sorts of uses; they are far superior in most cases to most incandescents. Some of the incandescents do an OK job, too - the new style Pelican M6 is better (more practical) than the original IMO because they have a wider beam (but still not like a good LED; still trades off a potentially huge flood for throw).

I said this is the short verson, so I'll stop here... I think you have made excellent arguements and I agree with your conclusions.

Regards,

Tom

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#34104 - 11/14/04 08:30 PM Re: Where/When/Why I use flashlights (short versio
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Thanks.

I can easily see it being different. I suspect that if I lived in ranch country, I'd want the longest throw I could get, and care a whole lot less about weight and bulk.

I know what you mean about the woods. I generally only carry a Photon, because almost my entire use is rummaging around in the tent or pack at night. And, as I constantly remind myself, if I were better organized, I wouldn't need to do that much either.

Outside, so long as you don't spend your time staring at a fire (or into a stove flame) you rarely need it.

Of course, "woods" has nothing to do with car-camping campgrounds, where your night vision is continually being ruined by something or other... the restroom/shower houses in the one I frequent most often have lighting to rival a downtown bus terminal.



_________________________

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#34105 - 11/15/04 01:16 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
D Cell maglights in the upper echelon of throw?

MAYBE a magcharger, or MAYBE I've been hanging with the wrong crowd - but a friend pulled out his 6 D mag the other day for a bright light. I laughed - Pulled out the 9p from my pocket and kept working
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#34106 - 11/15/04 05:18 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was thinking about the Nuwai when you mentioned it, but I tihnk it really pushes the limit on how small I want my flashlight. While I haven't tried it out (heck, have I tried anything out?), I'm not sure I want something that compact. I can deal with a MM-size light.

Just wondering -- would you Surefire owners say that their line is more waterproof than that of a comparable MagLite? Just wondering.

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#34107 - 11/15/04 07:39 PM Re: Where/When/Why I use flashlights (short versio
bountyhunter Offline


Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1224
Loc: Milwaukee, WI USA
Mr_Dead

Are you saying the lights are usually shot out by handguns and have all kinds of drug dealers hanging around them? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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#34108 - 11/16/04 02:49 AM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Quote:
D Cell maglights in the upper echelon of throw?

MAYBE a magcharger, or MAYBE I've been hanging with the wrong crowd - but a friend pulled out his 6 D mag the other day for a bright light. I laughed - Pulled out the 9p from my pocket and kept working


No doubt. And the total light output from a 9P exceeds that of a Mag. But the Mag probably had half dead batteries - that seems to be typical of Mags in use. Surefire users that I know, myself included, change to fresh batteries at the first hint of less-than-blinding-light and figure out some other use for the used lithiums, usually in a regulated LED light.

Probably a standard Mag bulb in the 6-D. So the 9P has a brighter beam (although changing bulbs in the Mag would equalize that - both are 9v lights, eh?).

However, I was stating a fact about throw, and I'll stand by what I said, because the facts are well established: 3,4, and 6 cell D Mags are in the upper echelon of the universe of conventional flashlights for THROW distance of the beam, especially the 4 and 6 cell versions. Not the very top, but in the upper echelon.

I'm hardly a mag fan, but I give them their due.

The 9P (a three-cell version of the standard 2 cell 6P, for those readers who are wondering what it is) is an awesome little blaster, particularly for its size. Incredible amount of light. But not known for throw - it's stuck with the cute little 6P reflector - the M3 handily outthrows it (and a 4 cell D Mag out throws an M3, and a 3 D Mag exactly equals an M3 for throw). Which would I rather have? The 9P (actually, the 6P if I have a choice), no question about it.

All things remaining equal - bulb voltage and available amperage - the biggest reflector throws the farthest. The stochiastic Surefire reflectors remove beam artifacts and give a more even beam - but they are also not as efficient as the bigger & smooth Mag reflectors - can't be; not possible; would violate physical laws.

Again, I prefer the Surefire, but back to throw - the big Mags are waaay up there. Few flashlights by anyone are in that range. Yellow beams, ugly beam artifacts, and made by a company that now apparently prefers to "inovate" by litigation... but they reach out there. And they're cheap and rugged.

Is your 9P an original run or did you get one of the re-issues? Good deal either way. Very classy light; I'd be proud of the little powerhouse, too. Personally, I'm kinda stuck on the 2-cell stuff - I really like the size/proportions of the 2 CR 123 cell lights. OTOH, if someone wanted to gift me a 9P... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Regards,

Tom

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#34109 - 11/16/04 01:55 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Quote:
I was thinking about the Nuwai when you mentioned it, but I tihnk it really pushes the limit on how small I want my flashlight. While I haven't tried it out (heck, have I tried anything out?), I'm not sure I want something that compact. I can deal with a MM-size light.


Ok. I have yet to hear a Q-III owner complain about it's being too small- hard to see the downside of that- but whatever you're comfortable with.

Quote:
Just wondering -- would you Surefire owners say that their line is more waterproof than that of a comparable MagLite? Just wondering.


I don't really know, but I'd guess they're comparable. The both use similar systems of tubes twisting over o-ring seals (actually, the stock L4 doesn't twist), and they both seem to compress the o-rings to a similar degree. I haven't worried too much about that.. beyond rain or an accidental dunking I don't anticipate it being a factor. Not planning on swimming long distances or diving with one.

By contrast, I bought one of the new Chinese 2AA 3W Luxeon lights coming out now:



and while it's built like a tank (reminds me of Russian engineering), it has no o-rings or seals at all. The fit of parts is tight enough that it would take more than getting rained on to bother it, I think, but obviously it's going to leak under any pressure or serious immersion.

Not a bad light for $39- very bright, pretty tight Lux 3 level beam, excellent tint, good switch with a real momentary, and feels bombproof- but too big for pocket carry (some edges are way too sharp anyway), and obviously not very waterproof. This one is currently hanging beside the back door for quick access to investigate goings-on in the yard at night.
_________________________

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#34110 - 11/16/04 03:24 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
Anonymous
Unregistered


It looks like someone liked the Surefire design...

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#34111 - 11/16/04 10:21 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
Thanks.

I had a look at the Maxstar2 and the resulting beam is not what I'm looking for.
So ... exit the 2 D Maglite...

I think I will be able to resist the urge to buy a SF L2, but ....
.. I have found a french retailler where other goodies are available, ie :
- Nuwai Q3 : just to compare with my 6P or G2 (the only thing I don't like it's their delicate bulbs...)
- Inova 24/7 : I have been looking for it for a long time....
- Nightstar2 : to actually see what kind of beam it gives and as a gift for my uncle (physics professor), once I will have played a bit with ;
- CMG/Gerber Bonfire Blaze : because they are not too expensive and because I will actually use it !! It should be perfect inside my Hennessy Hammock.

Except for the Gerber light, every other light will cost about or more than twice the US price !!! So I will only buy one of each ... for testing purpose.

If I need more, I guess I will order from your side ... even with shipping fees and various taxes, it will be cheaper. But I don't want all the hassle just for one light.


BTW : anybody knows 1 web shop, where I could buy all those different lights (up to now, I have found them scattered on different on-line shops..) ??
_________________________
Alain

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#34112 - 11/17/04 02:07 AM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
AyersTG Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1272
Loc: Upper Mississippi River Valley...
Alain,

I don't know of a place that carries all those lights. Check with the folks on Candle Power Forums... I guess you aren't coming across the pond in the near future on business, or we could figure out something simple. Pity to have to pay the extra costs involved.

Since you already have a Surefire 6P, couldn't you put a KL-5 head on it and have something like an L4? Just a thought - albeit an expensive thought...

Regards,

Tom


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#34113 - 11/17/04 01:16 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
As far as I know, there is only one retailer importing the Quantum III into the US... but I bought my two from the "B/S/T" forum on candlepower, shipped direct from Korea, for less than that retailer charges. Apparently it had no problems getting through customs.

I don't know any reason it wouldn't work the same way to France.
_________________________

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#34114 - 11/17/04 07:04 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
well.... my pb is not to have an good LED light or a powerful bulb light : I want BOTH in the same package (hence the urge to buy a SF L2.....)

<img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Alain

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#34115 - 11/17/04 07:49 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Quote:
my pb is not to have an good LED light or a powerful bulb light : I want BOTH in the same package (hence the urge to buy a SF L2


The L2 is a 2-stage LED, no bulb. Perhaps you're thinking of the A2?
_________________________

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#34116 - 11/17/04 08:02 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
Sorry ! I didn't take time to express myself correctly. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Remplacing a delicate bulb by a tough LED is OK.

What I'm looking for is a dual purpose light, like the L2 : both low and high settings ....
I guess I will continue to EDC (at least) 2 lights ....
_________________________
Alain

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#34117 - 11/22/04 04:28 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
Craig Offline


Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 1784
Loc: Collegeville, PA, USA
I recently bought the MiniStar2 TLE-5 upgrade module for my 2-AA Mini-Mag. Wow, the difference is like night and day. My newly reborn Mini-Mag is now my official light for walking the dog.

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#34118 - 11/23/04 09:28 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Guess it's bring back old threads day... been doing that a bit already (on other forums).

Went with an A2 and wow, it is definitely not what I expected. It's smaller than I thought it would be (a good "small," though) and it's probably not as bright as I expected it to be (the pictures really had me boggled -- I was thinking I'd be betting a focused 500w lamp <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> ) The construction was far more solid than I expected, and the thing is, well, it's just a beauty.

In short, I absolutely love it. My parents were in Florida (math conference) and I was still in school (college), so I had them TAKE A LOOK at the A2 because there was a retailer down there, pretty close to their hotel. They, well, they bought it before I told them which LED color I wanted, so now I'm stuck with red. I'm going to see if I can change them to the white ones (aka mail it back to the retailer, swap, then get it back). But even if that doesn't happen, these lights sure are bright. Definitely can hit the garage door with a pretty solid beam at (maybe) 75 feet? It's nice.

<img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Thanks everyone, for your help and time and thought. I really did look into a lot of the options but felt that ultimately the A2 was my best bet. Thanks again. I'll try to stop in now and again to see how things are going. For now, have a good vacation and enjoy the holidays.


Edited by gmnstrunr37 (11/23/04 09:29 PM)

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#34119 - 11/23/04 09:42 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
Anonymous
Unregistered


How far is the throw on it, would you say?

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#34120 - 11/23/04 10:24 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
GoatRider Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 835
Loc: Maple Grove, MN
Send it to me, I want red LED's. As a pilot, usually I want red for close-in work to preserve my night vision.
_________________________
- Benton

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#34121 - 11/23/04 11:26 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'll see what happens of it. I still want an A2 -- so if nothing works out, I'm keeping the A2 as it is.

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#34122 - 11/24/04 04:30 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Mr_Dead Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 34
Those were similar to my impressions- the L4 was smaller than I expected, even though I'd spent a lot of time looking at photos. In my case it was brighter than I expected, but that's probably because I'd never seen an LED that powerful before. I've seen plenty of xenon lights.

As for the red LEDs, there's a guy who wants to buy/trade for just that right here:

CPF B/S/T

Might want to talk to him about it.
_________________________

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#34123 - 11/24/04 04:53 PM Re: Drop-in LED replacements
Craig Offline


Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 1784
Loc: Collegeville, PA, USA
Don't know exactly, but it is perfect for my needs. When a light doesn't throw far enough, you notice fairly quickly. This light throw far enough so I can peer under surrounding parked cars for cats and skunks and so forth.

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#34124 - 11/24/04 10:50 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the replies, Craig and Mr. Dead.

As far as the red A2 is concerned... I'm still thinking about doing a swap with the retailer I bought it from, but if that proves to be too much of a hassle, I might go the internet way. We'll see how it goes with the 'rents tonight.

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#34125 - 11/28/04 04:55 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy
physics137 Offline
journeyman

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 64
Loc: New York City
So did the 'batman" jokes subside for a day or two? I find they do for me when I make myself useful, but pretty soon it's back to the usual <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#34126 - 11/29/04 04:07 PM Re: Flashlight came in handy (long reply)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, I'm going to lay down my issue now. Thanks everyone for all the replies... I think I've learned more about flashlights than I thought was possible, and you've seen how much MORE there is for me to learn!

Keeping/kept the red A2. John found a better deal than I was offering and the dealer definitely wasn't too keen on doing a six-hundred mile swap of flashlights. I'm not displeased at all... granted it's still an incandescent bulb, but it's bright, rugged, and is riding with me every moment it can. Definitely love Surefire.... no doubt where I'll turn first to look for a next lamp (L2 or equivalent would be my guess).

Thanks again. I'll be around every so often, but seeing as I'm not a camper or survival guy, doubt I'll post too often. So until next time, take care and enjoy the holidays.

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