Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#293299 - 09/08/19 03:19 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
Montanero Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1509
Loc: North Carolina
There are always exceptions. You should never give up, never stop trying to survive, and this person exemplifies this. But this bear was not trying to eat him and was not intent on killing him either. When the grizzly is charging, you don't know what their intention is, you can't read their mind. Have your device, whatever it is, handy and employable in a second or two. You can't depend on the ability to dig it out of your pack. This guy you refer to was lucky.

Top
#293301 - 09/08/19 04:01 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: chaosmagnet]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 283
Loc: eastern Oregon & west TX
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet


A few thoughts:
  • If you plan to carry a firearm, get training first, and of course only do so legally. Know your capabilities and limitations.
  • Defensive tools need to be readily accessible, or they may as well be on Pluto. This likely requires forethought and adjustment of how you carry your tools and whatever pack you have.
  • Avoidance is best. Following that is non-lethal deterrence.


very well stated CM (and that also applies to two-legged predators!)

Top
#293304 - 09/08/19 08:59 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: chaosmagnet]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1408
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Lots of good stuff in this article.

A few thoughts:
[list]
[*]If you plan to carry a firearm, get training first


Does anyone offer bear defense training? What if you encountered a tactical bear?

Top
#293305 - 09/08/19 09:53 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Bingley]
yelp Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/08
Posts: 172
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Bingley
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Lots of good stuff in this article.

A few thoughts:
[list]
[*]If you plan to carry a firearm, get training first


Does anyone offer bear defense training? What if you encountered a tactical bear?


Learn to Return's Wildlife Awareness & Defense course

"This 1-day program is designed for anyone who is interested in improving their wildlife awareness, deterrent, and defensive skills. We cover specific threats and common deterrent techniques and equipment. The afternoon is spent at the local range detailing weapon safety and coaching students on improving their shooting comfort and proficiency."

https://www.survivaltraining.com/courses/bear-wildlife-awareness/
_________________________
(posting this as someone that has unintentionally done a bunch of stupid stuff in the past and will again...)

Top
#293313 - 09/09/19 06:23 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 913
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
Oh, boy! Here we go again! whistle grin Interesting article; it may be that everything we've been told about bear spray vs firearms is wrong and based on a very flawed reading of very flawed studies. It appears that bear spray is very effective at 'hazing' bears that are curious but has about a 33% chance of dissuading and actual attack. And it's less effective against black bears than Grizzlies.

I would encourage everyone to carefully read the linked article, then read it again.

Discuss!


"Eggs are good for you!" "Eggs are really bad for you!" Its common to see competing opinion pieces and studies. Sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt and not distill too much authority in any one opinion. Often a study will have some predisposed bias that they seek to reinforce instead of just letting the data speak for itself.

Top
#293317 - 09/09/19 08:32 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Bingley]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3161
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Bingley
What if you encountered a tactical bear?


While your question seems to be tongue-in-cheek, I’ll answer it as though you were serious.
  • Situational awareness is critical to early recognition of potential threats.
  • Avoidance is best whenever possible.
  • Evasion or withdrawal is next best after avoidance, where feasible.
  • De-escalation, depending on circumstances, may work with human aggressors. It’s worked well in at least some cases with bears who were scared or annoyed. With a predatory (“tactical”) bear, my reading leads me to think that de-escalation is very unlikely to give good results.
  • I train my students to use “Alpha Commands” (such as “Stop!” or “Drop it!”) if circumstances both warrant and permit. Admittedly, where I live, ursine aggressors are sufficiently uncommon that it’s never come up in any class I’ve taught or attended.
  • If all else fails, move to a position of advantage if possible, and shoot until the threat is neutralized or gives up. The untrained commonly shoot faster than they can be accurate — it’s critical to make your hits. You cannot miss fast enough to win.


I don’t so much strongly discourage my students from firing warning shots as instruct them sternly to never, ever do so. My assumption is that ursine aggressors are more commonly found in areas where warning shots aren’t so likely to hurt a human or be destructive to property, but I have no idea whether a bear would be indifferent or even angered by them.

Top
#293319 - 09/09/19 09:20 PM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
DaveL Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/03/18
Posts: 15
I am with Clearwater, we just had another bear attack in Colorado. Black bear came in to a couples home out side of Denver the husband got clawed and his wife used a baseball bat to chase off the critter.
If my short memory serves that is Two bear and catamount attacks around here in the last 12 months. Yep very rare
On a side note Heimo Korth has lived in Grizzly country for 42 years and carries a pistol, almost all the time out side his cabin. No EMT, hospital etc .
MTC YMMV


Edited by DaveL (09/09/19 09:43 PM)

Top
#293322 - 09/10/19 02:01 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: Phaedrus]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6941
Loc: southern Cal
That's four attacks. How many fatal falls during this period? How many drowning? How many fatal bee attacks? Attacks by dogs? Automobile accidents while en route to the outdoors?

I haven't seen any mention of Steve Herrero's work on bear attacks, either in the cited article or in the subsequent discussion. I believe he concluded that bear spray was pretty effective. One take away from his book that impressed me was the need to keep a clean camp; that seemed to trigger many incidents.


Edited by hikermor (09/10/19 02:05 AM)
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#293323 - 09/10/19 02:08 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: yelp]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6941
Loc: southern Cal
Wow! A whole afternoon at the range...I wonder just a tad if that is really enough time to gain proficiency.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#293325 - 09/10/19 02:26 AM Re: Everything we've read about bear spray is wrong? [Re: hikermor]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2332
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: hikermor
That's four attacks. How many fatal falls during this period? How many drowning? How many fatal bee attacks? Attacks by dogs? Automobile accidents while en route to the outdoors?

I haven't seen any mention of Steve Herrero's work on bear attacks, either in the cited article or in the subsequent discussion. I believe he concluded that bear spray was pretty effective. One take away from his book that impressed me was the need to keep a clean camp; that seemed to trigger many incidents.


I've never heard of him nor his works. Do any of them refute the above? The point I made in posting is that the most cited "evidence" that bear spray is 98% effect never actually stated that at all. In driving off curious but non-aggressive bears (ie 'hazing') spray is effective. But in driving off bears that are already attacking it's startling ineffective, as in it works 1 in 3 times! eek That doesn't mean it's useless, just that a lot of folks have a false sense of security not borne out by facts.

As for other threats- yeah, they exist. But what of it? It's not as though you're only allowed to address a specific number of potential problems! Using seatbelts doesn't use up one "safety slot" that requires you to discard your fire extinguisher. wink That's the point of being Equipped To Survive! And ignoring bears isn't likely to protect from bees any more than it will prevent a car crash. Safety shouldn't be a zero-sum exercise.

Also FWIW there may not be a lot of bear attacks in the lower 48 but they're clustered within 30 miles of my house. I spend a lot of time in areas with lots of bears. That makes it interesting to me. One of my best friends has to kill one black bear and one mountain lion in self defense so I know it happens occasionally. And no, it wasn't both on the same hike. grin
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, cliff, Hikin_Jim 
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30
Who's Online
0 registered (), 174 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BereniceStanaway, aakanksha, 9Line, SkiSoloII, KMNPack
5293 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Santa Cruz Island Boat Fire
by Herman30
Today at 05:53 PM
Wordless tutorial III - single strand diamond knot
by TonyE
Yesterday at 07:12 PM
Suggest me a fixed blade and a folder
by hikermor
Yesterday at 05:58 PM
Solving a math equation
by M_a_x
Yesterday at 06:47 AM
Easy way to start a fire
by Chisel
Yesterday at 03:34 AM
Has any of you really buried a survival cache ??
by Phaedrus
Yesterday at 02:12 AM
AG13 Batteries
by Jeanette_Isabelle
09/13/19 06:23 PM
Castaway
by Jeanette_Isabelle
09/13/19 05:53 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.