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#132426 - 05/09/08 01:08 PM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
I carry the AMK Heatsheet and Tacoma Storm Shelter in my day pack as well. I have them vacuumed packed to reduce their size even more and to keep them flat. Plus the vacuum bags can make emergency water containers / collection devices if I need it.

I throw in an emergency rain poncho, just in case. Since the form factor is so small, I'm sure that I can find a use for it.

Of course I carry a modified PSP from Doug and a personal FAK.

I use to carry one of those typical space blankets, but after really reading up and understanding them, I realized they wouldn't be too useful and switched to the Heatsheet.

Obviously there are a lot of other misc. things I carry such as food and water, but I believe the point here was shelter / warmth.

I figure, for a survival situation, I could set up the shelter and snuggle in the heatsheet. Obviously, if I'm going to be in the woods for an overnighter, I have my tent and a lot of other gear with me.
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#132475 - 05/10/08 12:16 AM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: GoatMan]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
I EDC a heatsheet, and keep a heatsheet bivy in my ditch/basic hiking kit. Contractor bags appear everywhere- they fold up about the size of a thin sandwich.
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When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#132480 - 05/10/08 02:28 AM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1112
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter.
Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.


A waterproof bivybag or garbage bag can make all the difference for someone already soaking wet.

We found a lost snowboarder who had been hiking in a stream (the
snow was too deep to wallow through) on his attempt to walk out.
Soaked throughout and dressed in layers of cotton clothes, the
temperature was -17 F. Shivering violently, as soon as he
was tucked in an impermiable bivy, he warmed up and stopped
shivering, until a few hours later a tent, sleeping bag and
hot pizza could be dropped by helicopter. When he got out of
the bivy, there was a good 6 inches of water in the bottom.


An a frame will not prevent the loss of heat due to evaporation
and convection like the same material close around the body.

If you are already dry, then an A frame will allow ventilation
which will reduce condensation from your own body moisture.

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#132490 - 05/10/08 09:02 AM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: clearwater]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: clearwater
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter.
Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.


A waterproof bivybag or garbage bag can make all the difference for someone already soaking wet.

We found a lost snowboarder who had been hiking in a stream (the
snow was too deep to wallow through) on his attempt to walk out.
Soaked throughout and dressed in layers of cotton clothes, the
temperature was -17 F. Shivering violently, as soon as he
was tucked in an impermiable bivy, he warmed up and stopped
shivering, until a few hours later a tent, sleeping bag and
hot pizza could be dropped by helicopter. When he got out of
the bivy, there was a good 6 inches of water in the bottom.


An a frame will not prevent the loss of heat due to evaporation
and convection like the same material close around the body.

If you are already dry, then an A frame will allow ventilation
which will reduce condensation from your own body moisture.


Operative term here is "already soaking wet". By rights that moron should be dead. Violent shivering etc. He is at best minutes away from collapse, coma, death. Improperly dressed and no snow shoes. Magic.

A bivvy bags function is to provide a barrier against wind and rain. I carry one but it is a Rab Survival Zone Pertex bag. I also carry a poncho as well.

In the case above it worked, but i would be interested in other views as to when it will/won't work.
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#132491 - 05/10/08 09:26 AM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Tube tents and plastic biviy bags make excellent body bags. Perfect for wrapping the hypothermia victims mortal remains in.
Cut the tube tent in half length ways. That will give you two decent sized plastic sheets. Use them to waterproof a A-Frame shelter. Using them in the classical fashion is a tactic of desperation.


Um, ok... a little UK hyperbole there, perhaps? Why so doctrinaire? I suppose you believe yourself to be more of an expert on this than Peter Kummerfeldt, who spent decades teaching SERE in the military and teaches this very technique today. It works; I've tested it (on purpose during training) firsthand in the field.

Wear some insulating clothing underneath the bag & you are fine. Sweaty, but insulated enough to be warm while the bag keeps out the wind & cold rain. An A-frame blocks the wind & blowing rain much less. If you have no insulating clothes, you're no better off under a breezy A-frame than you are wrapped up in the bag.


As you correctly say: you had better be wearing the right clothing under it. To me that means wool or pile and a Gore-Tex layer. You also need some sort of flameless heat source in there.

And in the nicest fashion possible, you might want to consider the possibility that "taught for decades" does not mean right in all circumstances. I would be curious to see if demonstration of the technique involves a discussion of it's limitations.

"I suppose you believe yourself to be more of an expert on this than Peter Kummerfeldt?" Under what circumstances?

As it happens I looked at his web-site and added it to my list of Recommended Viewing for Neophyte Outdoorsman.

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I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#132501 - 05/10/08 03:52 PM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1112
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Things you will never hear a snowboarder say:

Is this your five dollar bill?
I'll take the small baggy.
Does my hair look too blue?
Checkmate.

I was amazed at how well the wet cotton wrapped snowboarder did
after sticking him in a silnylon sack. I now am convinced of the
value of the heatsheet etc. type bivy sacks for emergencies for the
short term.

Since there was no wind or rain in that search, an A frame shelter
would have added little insulation value other than a bit of
protection from radiation heat loss. The waterproof fabric
close to the body helped a lot more and was able to be applied
immeadiately.

For survival training we teach 4th graders, we have them bring
large garbage bags for the same purpose.


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#132503 - 05/10/08 05:06 PM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: GoatMan]
TeacherRO Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2396
Given that you're high up and often going higher up, I'd add a fleece shell combo jacket, plus a watch cap and gloves.

Teacher

( Not all of you options will work well above the tree line - do u carry poles?)

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#132538 - 05/11/08 01:40 AM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: TeacherRO]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Many snowboarders wear what I've heard called ghetto snow pants. They take baggy jeans and starch the hell out of them...they're practically impervious to snow and water.

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#132573 - 05/11/08 02:39 PM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: ]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
When I was in tech school in the Air Force we starched the hell out of our fatigues with Perma-starch. After a while, if you bent your leg too much, the fabric would break (not tear, break) at the knee. I wonder how those boarders avoid that???
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#132638 - 05/12/08 12:44 PM Re: Shelter options for backcountry day hikes [Re: GoatMan]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6997
Loc: southern Cal
Over my time in the outdoors, I have spent an unplanned, or semi-planned, night outdoors about fifteen or twenty times. On at least three occasions, I had no blanket or sack, but had a stove or the means to build a fire. My bivy sack on most of the other occasions was a nylon sack, coated on one side and uncoated on the other. Any of the AMK products work better than that sack, but the sack was good enough that I was able to get some rest and function better when dawn finally came. Best of all is a gore-tex bivy sack, but that is relatively heavy. As important as the shelter is the source of warmth - fire or stove. There is nothing like a warm drink at 3 in the morning to boost morale.

For personal use a bivy sack is more protective and warmer for the weight, but for treating a casualty, a blanket gives the access that is necessary for adequate treatment.

I now carry the Thermo-Lite 2 Bivy as part of my core gear. I am not sure that I will use it very much, since after years of trying, I have finally figured out how to get home before the sun sets.
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