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#291274 - 12/02/18 06:57 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
Ian Offline

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 198
Loc: Scotland
I have been told the support rods of a car headrest are designed to break the car's side windows. I have never tried.

I have been through the Royal Navy helicopter escape trainer (the Dunker) and also a good few submarine escape trials. You really haven no time or energy for anything fancy.

Ask your local fire service what they use to break glass.

#291275 - 12/02/18 07:23 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Ian]
Russ Offline

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Question, because I don’t know the answer. After a car fills with water and the pressure equalizes, can the windows simply roll down as they would in air? Being a dinosaur, my car has manual crank windows, but are electric windows sealed such that they would still function? Curious minds...

That said, in my mind and from what I recall in training, getting clear of an aircraft or in this case car is primary, after that’s been accomplished, getting to the surface is a matter of holding one’s breath. 80’ — freedivers go much deeper and then return to the surface. IIRC you need to be conscious on the surface without assistance for the dive to count.

As I so fondly (sarc) remember from training for my water survival cert., getting comfortable underwater is a process. For me it was slowly and then all at once. I trained by swimming underwater, before one cert, I did two lengths (one lap) in a 25 yard pool (50 yards total) underwater. With that under my belt, I was able to sit in my seat and watch the other participants scramble for the exit before I released my harness and swam out (just a few seconds later). With a little training, being comfortable underwater allows you to take a few precious moments and this is where the idea of “Slow Is Smooth And Smooth Is Fast” comes in. $.02

#291276 - 12/02/18 08:03 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Russ]
aligator Offline

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 96
Loc: NY
*THREAD DRIFT* I know what a SARC is, Thankyou. I advocate for medics, PJ's, 18-D's and SARC's, because there is no civilian analog, especially SARCS, for what you've been doing, including MD, to (if they want) be licensed to practice CONUS/OCONUS, basically unlimited, being able to treat based on patient needs/condition. Yous are a resource we cannot afford to waste. Once the licensure happens, make the education and license/practice available to us. Sign me up!

Electric windows typically don't work with wet circuits, so too electrical door locks. With training/"experience", keep the seat belt on until the vehicle "settles", roll down windows, unlock doors, ASAP, manage air bags if deployed, exit vehicle. The same mechanisms that disable vehicles when the attempt too deep a puddle, apply in submersions. Manual windows and locks, in this scenario, is a good thing

#291277 - 12/02/18 08:11 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Russ]
M_a_x Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1124
Loc: Germany
Electric windows are supposed to work for a while after the car begins to submerge. Saltwater may short the circuites more quickly.
It is recommended to immediately start rolling down the windows, when the car hits the water. That allows to escape sooner.
If it isn´t broken, it doesn´t have enough features yet.

#291278 - 12/02/18 08:27 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
Russ Offline

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
(Sarc) meant my fondness was sarcasm — I do remember the training & cert, but not with fondness. My last cert was a real workout; I was the sole participant and the trainers/safety swimmers kept me moving from one qual/demonstration to the next for about an hour straight. Fortunately no dunker, just an underwater obstacle course of sorts. Fun (again, sarcastically).

#291279 - 12/02/18 08:59 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Russ]
aligator Offline

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 96
Loc: NY
post deleted

Edited by aligator (12/02/18 11:11 PM)

#291285 - 12/04/18 03:33 AM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
aligator Offline

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 96
Loc: NY
Anything further? Am I missing anything? Would yous suggest a different approach?
I will probably grow old er, and never involuntarily get my feet wet, but one thing I live by, never ever say never. Those folks in the crash in DC, never in their wildest dreams anticipated, swimming in a frozen Potomac that day. If they had they wouldn't have been there, no sane person would. The crew couldn't help them, for a while the rescue agencies couldn't help them, and by that time, it was largely body recoveries. I don't think most rescue agencies carry immersion suits (or ice diving setups either and that might be a really useful option) on their rigs regularly during the winter, so if/when God forbid it happened again, the results would likely be pretty much the same. I can't legislate change in the FAA, the shipping industry, or even the NFPA, but there has to be something better out there, between total ignorance/helplessness, and "wear your PFD" and adequate education as to the realities, and possible efficacious options. I've never found another aspect of survival, that has so many "choke points", and the fact that nobody, that I know of, is linking the very limited study of cars in the water, or vehicles of all descriptions, submerged, with the much larger body of knowledge of immersion hypothermia is reprehensible. Even if you can get out of the car/plane/train/boat/bus, doesn't begin to guarantee a happy ending, and as above, most people drown, before they succumb to hypothermia. As stated, sometimes a PFD, just makes you easier to find. There has to be a better option

Regards, Jim

#291286 - 12/04/18 04:09 AM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7447
Loc: southern Cal
Nothing says every situation is survivable. In the situation you propose, there are many factors weighing against a successful outcome. We haven't even discussed the high likelihood of fatal outcomes simply due to the very cold water temperature - one source I consulted mentioned death occurring within five to ten minutes in 30ish degree water in many (not all!) subjects.

A lot of uncontrollable variables at play and definitely no recommended, "safe" solution. A worthwhile subject that has generated constructive posts.

I would not want to be in a submerged vehicle 80 feet deep, struggling to get out of the vehicle. i would definitely be in over my head, as they say....
Geezer in Chief

#291287 - 12/04/18 04:16 AM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: hikermor]
aligator Offline

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 96
Loc: NY
But there is something in me that says, never give up, there are always options, there is always a solution. And the sucky statistics demand better. Anybody ever involved in Fire/PD/EMS/SAR, will tell you, that frequently, we get to save people from themselves, but sometimes not soon enough.
The people that find themselves in these situations, aren't there voluntarily, they most certainly aren't there by choice, THEY ARE JUST THERE, wrong place, wrong time, and almost without exception, if they don't/can't rescue themselves, they won't survive long enough to be rescued by others.

#291293 - 12/04/18 06:26 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
roberttheiii Offline

Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 345
Loc: Connecticut, USA
I honestly think the best thing you can do for a sudden immersion in a "low risk" (not driving on ice...) automobile is to be mentally and physically (more on this later) prepared for the situation.

This guy didn't do anything crazy (though didn't have to contend with windows) and made it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D5PRDQPMOE

So I'd be sure to be aware, physically fit, and very comfortable in the water (do some scuba diving or snorkeling). If you can, take a ride in a tank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad_8-RVIy4w

People can technically go into 30 degree water and make it out, and if you run back to the road and get in a warm car in your underwear, you'll probably be OK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF1V8HFfpTE

This assumes you make it out of the sinking car though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIx719_oer0

Something like this is always a good idea: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073J92G1J/ref...59-01df5dfa83f2

I personally probably would not carry a kit like the one you contemplate. At most, if I was driving on a frozen lake, I'd keep my windows open and my spareair handy.

Edited by roberttheiii (12/04/18 06:28 PM)

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