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#291264 - 12/02/18 03:28 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4963
Loc: SOCAL
Helicopter Aircrew Breathing Device (H.A.B.D.)
Quote:
... the H.A.B.D. is intended for use only as an emergency device to assist aircrew members or passengers in making an emergency egress from a submerged aircraft. Due to its limited air volume, it is not intended for use while scuba diving or egressing from depths greater than 45 ft / 13.7 m.

Before using the H.A.B.D., it is important to receive in-water survival training which simulates an emergency egress situation. you must also learn basic principals and tech- niques for breathing compressed air underwater. Use of the H.A.B.D. without proper training is dangerous and can result in serious injury or death. ...


The last time I went through water survival we had classroom instruction on the H.E.E.D.; I thought I’d actually get training in the pool with one — nope, classroom familiarization only. However, were I to just buy one, I would get training on its use and LIMITATIONS.

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#291265 - 12/02/18 03:57 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 486
OK, I'm a bit confused. Is it your intent to don/attach the gear only when crossing a body of water (each bridge, for instance)... or to wear/attach it all the time? I can't particularly argue with your specified load-out, but conceptually I have a hard time conceiving ever loading myself down like this.

I'm going to trust a glass breaker/seat belt cutter, and take my chances on the remainder. My fear is to get my emergency gear on my person somehow "hung up" preventing my safe extraction. That happened to me in a rafting situation (emergency kit in waist pack hung up) so I'm never going to load myself beyond what fits in pants pockets.

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#291266 - 12/02/18 04:01 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
Herman30 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 241
Loc: Finland
Seems to me it is too much hussle to prepare for the extremely small chance of driving into the water. I would rather concentrate on how to drive safely past that reservoir.

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#291267 - 12/02/18 04:01 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Russ]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 486
NO. Dangerous advice. At anything other than just below the surface the air in your trapped car or your lungs has been compressed to sufficient degree that you are likely to get an embolism if you hold your breath. You have to gently blow out...not hold your breath... as you surface.

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#291268 - 12/02/18 04:10 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: NAro]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6647
Loc: southern Cal
Checking out the HEED-3 website, I ran across the following testimonial from a diver involved in a vehicle extrication following an accident similar to the one contemplated in this thread. It shows the difficulties and complexities involved in such a situation:




"On February 12, 2002 myself and two other divers from my rescue company responded to a single motor vehicle accident that ended in a water rescue and subsequent recovery effort by our dive crew. Without notice the aft most heaving cable broke loose from its turnbuckle and like a pendulum struck my tank just above the valve stem shearing the 1st stage regulator from the tank valve and pinning me against one of the dock pilings between the van. I managed to wrestle my spare air bottle free. We carry our Spare Air bottles in a piggyback sleeve mounted on our tank closest to our back. Not knowing where my partner was due to the disorientation and shear terror of the blow and quick trip through the murky water and no communication possible without my mask in place, I decided to head up in case the second shackle let loose and pinned me to the bottom. Being @ more than 100 feet, I didn't know what my air supply would be like for my assent and I was breathing like a vacuum cleaner, sucking back air like a rookie! Despite a couple of bruised ribs, stitches and minor concussion, I came though this ordeal relatively unharmed and ALIVE!"

Note that this experienced and qualified diver was "breathing like a vacuum cleaner" in this situation....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#291269 - 12/02/18 05:02 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Montanero]
aligator Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 90
Loc: NY
Thank you for the responses. As stated, if the other option is drowning, just about anything is a better option. This is pass/fail, every step of the way, without any guarantees under the best of circumstances.

Nothing pertaining to this is in the trunk. Was looking at an Estwing rock hammer, big, heavy, gross motor skills compatible, probably effective, but sorely in need of bomb proof lock down, I do not want this thing flying around the interior of the car in a roll over. And yes, locks on consoles and glove boxes, do fail, unless locked, but I don't want to have to fiddle with keys, under these circumstances, so an accessible yet secure option needs to be found. For now, window punch and Rip shears (www.ripshears.com) are secured in Molle loops on drivers side visor with orange 550 loops and is duplicated on the PFD.

Center punches (aka window punches) General Tools makes a punch that you just put on the window and push, it has adjustable tension/force, and at some point, it trips and breaks the window. Steel construction, with replaceable tips, kept well greased, but it is smaller and not gross motor compliant. Snap On and Rescue Tool Man, both make spring punches, hold the hardened point against the glass, pull back the spring, and release, breaking the glass, I've used both, and they work as advertised, but neither is a hammer. Just an aside, none of the above, save for maybe the hammer, work for the windshield, or for vehicles with Lexan (plastic) side and rear windows.

Education: I hear there is a school in Groton CT., that teaches such, may have to look into it. As always, knowledge before toys.

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#291270 - 12/02/18 05:08 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: hikermor]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4963
Loc: SOCAL
Your post took me back to the OP and I had thoughts along the lines of what was the cause of death in those recoveries... Were they conscious long enough to get out but just couldn’t egress; were they unconscious after making contact with the water at very high speed; or did the victims die on impact with the water? You have to be conscious and physically able to egress or spare air can only delay the inevitable.

IMO focus here should be on egress, getting physically clear of the car/truck.

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#291271 - 12/02/18 05:39 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Russ]
aligator Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 90
Loc: NY
Yes to all of the above. As stated, did I survive the impact, am I unconscious, hence likely toast, am I injured, curtailing/preventing my ability to self extricate, can I breath, or am I holding my breath all the way down and then all the way back up, can I do that, or will I drown. Do I have a PFD on, needs to be manually inflating, in fact anything attached to me has to be neutrally buoyant, or it can inhibit extrication. How am I managing cold shock, have I aspirated water, where's rescue, how am I clothed, where's shore...All pass/fail without guarantees. Qne can only do the best they can, but to me, doing nothing is unacceptable. And I would replicate all the above in my wife's and kids cars, but they won't have it, and I don't have any grand kids in my car, yet. I can only imaging the average person in this kind of situation, they have no clue, and would most probably die, from one cause or another.

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#291272 - 12/02/18 06:24 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: aligator]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1739
Originally Posted By: aligator


Center punches (aka window punches) General Tools makes a punch that you just put on the window and push, it has adjustable tension/force, and at some point, it trips and breaks the window. Steel construction, with replaceable tips, kept well greased, but it is smaller and not gross motor compliant. Snap On and Rescue Tool Man, both make spring punches, hold the hardened point against the glass, pull back the spring, and release, breaking the glass, I've used both, and they work as advertised, but neither is a hammer. Just an aside, none of the above, save for maybe the hammer, work for the windshield, or for vehicles with Lexan (plastic) side and rear windows.




centerpunches sold as tools to punch a dimple in metal, for you to start drilling are poor choice. No mount, too small/needs bigger handle (shaky adrenaline hands!), poorly visible.

Important note; centre punches and rescue hammer do not work on laminated glass. If i remember correctly pretty much all north american cars from 2017 or later have laminated side windows (and all cars have laminated windscreens).
_________________________


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#291273 - 12/02/18 06:40 PM Re: Spontaneous Immersion Kit [Re: Tjin]
aligator Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/08/06
Posts: 90
Loc: NY
Another vote for the rock hammer, with or without the saw.

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