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#290959 - 10/24/18 10:23 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
"As for Grizzly bears. In the lower 48 of the USA, there are only about 1500 Grizzlies left. So the odds of being attacked are slim to none"

While it is true the odds of drowning are slim, the odds go up once you are in a boat.

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#290960 - 10/24/18 11:07 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: Teslinhiker]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
People do get attacked. I worked or years with a fellow NPS employee who was attacked by a grizzlie while on duty - she played dead, but her companion was injured. So it does happen, at least in Alaska.

But problems due to wild critters are not that prominent in the overall hazard profile one faces when going outdoors. Statistically, the Jaguar you drive is more likely to do you harm that the cougars out in the woods, to say nothing of problems created by microbes, falling, weather extremes, and drowning. Those are the things that really pose a problem.

Wild animal encounters make a big splash in the media when they occur, while more common problems are not emphasized, if mentioned at all.

Personally, the only time I have visited an ER for an outdoor injury was the result of a fall while rock climbing - no problems with critters whatsoever.


Edited by hikermor (10/25/18 02:22 AM)
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#290961 - 10/24/18 11:47 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: hikermor]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Originally Posted By: hikermor
People do get attacked. I worked or years with a fellow NPS employee who was attacked by a grizzlie while on duty - she played dead, but her companion was injured. So it does happen, at least in Alaska.

But problems due to wild critters are not that prominent in the overall hazard profile one faces when going outdoors. Statistically, the Jaguar you drive is more likely to do you harm that the cougars out in the woods, to say nothing of problems created by microbes, falling, weather extremes, and drowning. Those are the things that really pose a problem.

Wild animal encounters make a big splash in the media when they occur, while more common problems are not emphasized, if mentioned at all.

Personally, the only time I have visited an ER or an outdoor injury was the result of a fall while rock climbing - no problems with critters whatsoever.


That was the point I was making. These bear vs gun vs spray threads here on ETS - which seem to crop up so often, make it seem that the bear is the biggest and baddest threat in the outdoors - which is simply not the case.

Anyway, that is my last words ever on this over debated subject .
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Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#290962 - 10/25/18 12:22 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: Teslinhiker]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
How many people actually live in or venture out in bear country and fear enough that carrying the equivalent of a small cannon is required - just in case?

Here where I live, we have the highest concentration of black bears in NA with a population estimate of 120,000 to 160,000. Even on the low end estimate of 120,000, that number is still higher then the low end bear population estimates in the combined states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Colorado. Black bear sightings here, are a very common occurrence. Yet almost all outdoors oriented people are not routinely packing a firearm - and it is not all due to our much more restrictive gun laws. Simply put, it is not about being scared of bears. Instead, it is all about respecting these magnificent animals and being bear aware.

As for Grizzly bears. In the lower 48 of the USA, there are only about 1500 Grizzlies left. So the odds of being attacked are slim to none and it is highly probable that an attack by other wild or domesticated animals has a much better chance of suddenly and unmercifully ending your life.
Yes to all the above. As I noted in my previous post, having lived in Alaska for more than 30 years, my personal choice is to carry bear spray. While there is some chance of getting mauled by a bear, it is fairly far down on my list of things to worry about in the out of doors. However some folks, both in the lower 48 and in Alaska seem quite obsessed with bears. Hence the frequent, and often heated threads about spray vs firearms.

To elaborate on your remarks about how common bears are, vs how uncommon attacks are, let me comment on Anchorage. We are a modern city of around 300,000 or so, but the wilderness of the Chugach Range comes litterly to the edge of town. And it is real wilderness, with very few real trails. Last I heard, Fish & Game estimates there are about 60 or so brown/grizzly bears that live in close proximity to the city. I don't recall seeing figures on black bears, but there must easily be many hundreds in and around the town. For folks living in subdivisions on the Hillside, adjacent to Chugach State Park, it is not at all unusual to see both brown and black bears in their neighborhoods. One friend woke up one morning to find a mamma griz and cubs snoozing on his deck outside the sliding glass window.

I live in West Anchorage, well inside of town, on the side away from the wilderness. Yet last summer, my neighbor watched a black bear run across my front yard. The Coastal Trail is a paved trail that leads from downtown, follows the West Anchorage shoreline past some very nice homes, past the airport, and ends at Kincaid Park. The Coastal Trail is extremely popular with bikers, walkers, joggers, and families of all ages. One day last summer, while riding my bike I saw no less than 4 black bears on the trail. I have a photo of 3 of those bears, with a jetliner overhead on final approach to the airport runway. The bears were peacefully munching vegetation. Me and the other folks on the trail just stood and waited, for maybe 5-10 minutes, until the bears wandered off the trail far enough so we could proceed.

So we have of all these bears in and around town. And we have a relatively young population of very active hikers, walkers, trail runners, bird watchers, hunters, fishermen, mountain bikers etc. Yet bear maulings, while they do sometimes occur, are really quite rare. But clearly some folks, here and down south, seem quite paranoid and obsessed about bears, way out of of proportion to their actual odds of getting mauled.

EDIT:
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
That was the point I was making. These bear vs gun vs spray threads here on ETS - which seem to crop up so often, make it seem that the bear is the biggest and baddest threat in the outdoors - which is simply not the case.

Anyway, that is my last words ever on this over debated subject .
Amen Bro, Amen! Also my last comment on the subject.


Edited by AKSAR (10/25/18 12:26 AM)
Edit Reason: added Teslinhikers comment
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#290964 - 10/25/18 02:06 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
Do not take my comments as advocacy for a handgun as bear defense. I was merely stating the realities of using a firearm. I would prefer bear spray or a rifle, and some active avoidance strategies.

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#290965 - 10/25/18 03:02 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: gonewiththewind]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
For some people that I have encountered over the years, firearms are a security blanket, protecting them (they think) against the nameless hazards of the wilderness which possibly could include bears and the like. Sometimes the discussion turns political, invoking the second Amendment, etc.

In reality, and this isn't news to most of us on this forum, you are better served in the great outdoors with sufficient water and a good FAK, and all the rest of the fourteen or so Ten Essentials.

But weapons do have their place. I can recall two SAR operations where we were rescuing individuals who were promptly arrested for criminal conduct. At least one of these persons was armed with a concealed handgun. in a third situation, we were helping a person who pretty obviously had mental issues - he suddenly became very agitated by a light burning in the distance and threatened to shoot it out, drawing his rifle from within his pack. In all three of these cases, the actions of an equipped and properly trained deputy(ies) kept the scenes under control.
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#290966 - 10/25/18 08:29 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
Statistically I suppose bear attacks are rare compared to other things that are likely to harm you outdoors. But it does seem that their frequency is increasing. Due to a total ban on hunting of Grizzlies in the lower 48 it does seem that perhaps they're less afraid of humans that they used to be. Living in Idaho I can also attest that there are more bear attacks or at least aggressive bears than the media portrays. The owner of Buffalo Bore has written that in bear country when confronted by a dangerous bear the natives will simply shoot it and keep quiet, avoiding issues with authorities. Without condemning or condoning this practice I do know that it's true based on conversations with some trusted friends in Idaho and Montana.

Perhaps this topic is overdebated but it's fun! grin Maybe the odds are relatively slim of being confronted by a bear but many would say the same thing about all the other things we prep for. Isn't it prudent to prepare for any risk that you reasonably can prepare for, especially if the preparations aren't that difficult? Bear spray is inexpensive and pretty simple to use. A training can (same stuff but without the pepper part) is fairly cheap and nice to practice with. Bear spray is pretty simple but I feel the $12 spent on the training cannister was money well spent.

As for firearms, I suppose they're broadly controversial and not just in the context of bears. FWIW I'll flatly state that I never go into the woods without a firearm, but then I rarely go anywhere without one (that I am legally able to CCW in, natch). Sadly, two legged predators are probably a bigger danger than bears, at least in the lower 48. Just as it's hard to go anywhere that you won't find a discarded can it's pretty hard to get deep enough into the woods to avoid miscreants and criminals. IMO the general risk might relatively low but the consequences of being unarmed could be quite high. Just as with airbags in my car, the fact that I have not yet needed them does not mean I will disconnect them!
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“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

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#290968 - 10/25/18 07:37 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
" But clearly some folks, here and down south, seem quite paranoid and obsessed about bears, way out of of proportion to their actual odds of getting mauled. "

Obsessed? Like how knives are talked about on equipped ad nauseam? I like a good knife (or a good value knife), but rarely hear much here about fire extinguishers or life jackets.

In the Sierra Nevada of CA bear precautions consisted of hanging our food at night and piling up rocks by our pillow to pelt the bears that came sniffing around camp. Big Effing chipmunks we called them. However when by myself I was followed by a bear down Bubb's creek for 5 miles and he wouldn't leave until I got to the trail head, despite tossing rocks at him, it got me thinking I wanted more of a deterrent.

In the Selkirks, they shut areas of the forest down when the Grizzly start getting into campers packs. Most everyone carries some kind of deterrent and bear canisters are required. Just like snowmobilers carry avi gear, being equipped for predators is just part of going out in some places.

Last weekend we heard wolves both at our base camp and at a trailhead several miles away when we started to hike in to retrieve the rest of a deer. Saw bear tracks in the snow a couple of hundred yards away from the carcass too.

One of our group had a wolf pair stair him down and approach him earlier in the month. He was by the side of the road and they followed him to his truck.

This fellow is the uncle of one of our scouts.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/oct/25/after-montana-grizzly-mauling-hayden-man-attacked-/
Getting death threats. He might need some sort of deterrent for the vegans.

Seems lame to call people paranoid.


Edited by clearwater (10/25/18 08:29 PM)

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#290971 - 10/26/18 08:32 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Youtube of Bella Coola, BC man using birdshot to stop bear charge charge in his yard this month.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=123&v=o0uM7s8hprc

Reminds me of my mom chasing a bear out of our yard after it chased me and my buddy out of the front yard when I was about 6. Pink bathrobe, hair in curlers. Lolo Pass ranger station. She always said her pastries were so good because she used bear fat.


Edited by clearwater (10/26/18 08:39 PM)

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