Okay, not survival related at all, but I was looking at Chef knives recently, in order to dial up the quality of my kitchen cutlery and ran across a line of knives marketed by Zwilling, but designed by Bob Kramer — the Bob Kramer Carbon Collection. Okay, yeah, seriously not inexpensive.

Nice knives, but in doing some research, I found a YouTube titled: Equipment Review: Best Carbon-Steel Chef's Knives & Our Testing Winner. In an effort to totally spoil the YouTube, the Best Carbon-Steel Chef's Knife was the Kramer, but it was then tested head-to-head against a ~$40 Victorinox Fibrox Pro 8-Inch Chef's Knife; the Victorinox Chef’s knife didn’t win the test, but it held its own.

It so happens that a Victorinox Forschner 8” Chef's Knife was already in my knife block, all I needed to do was resharpen — which was done this morning. I needed to start with the coarse stone (it was that bad) and work up to fine, but now the knife will push cut paper. The only problem with the Victorinox is that I was treating it like a cheap knife, when I should have been treating it like a very good, inexpensive knife. My lesson for the day was to not judge a knife by its price-tag.

Kevin Kelly's Cool Tools website has occ. reader's picks for a variety of knives, including chef's knives:
Cool Tools

I check out his site daily.

Knife prices always puzzle ; there are obviously factors other than cutting ability and reliability at work. I just checked one prominent knife retailer. Top knife cost $5495.00 (but doubtless free shipping).

Would it really perform better than a $20 Mora? - its blade is one inch shorter...

Knives can certainly be valued as works of art/jewelry, but I rarely spend more than $50 on a blade - to me they are tools, pure and simple.

DD's boyfriend loves to cook, and I know he is interested in a really fine set of cutlery. Someday, I hope to satisfy his desire for good cutting implements.

An argument about chef's knives? Good Lord, let us bid a hasty retreat to politics, gun rights, and religion -- it's safer!

At a certain level, it's never about the best utilitarian tool; it's about the fine and subtle optimizations and adjustments that make the tool a seamless extension of your hand and your will. Personal ergonomics become huge, in the same manner as musical instruments to an advanced player. The right tool draws you forward and higher in your art.

Now, I'm a unique case because I've been a thrift shop scrounge for a decade or two. As a result, I have a pail of Victorinox blades, including 10" Fibrox chef knives. Frankly, I find the steel quite soft in comparison to German blades; but perhaps I need to push them to a much finer grit on the belt sander, and see if they "pop" in a way I didn't expect.

To underscore the ergonomics point made earlier: I pulled set of hand-made Japanese Hattori blades, a chef and a utility, with original cases, from a thrift shop for a total of $6.00. They're the best knives in the house, by orders of magnitude; but they don't fit our hands. So they remain as conversation pieces. (And I get endless amusement out of taking them to snooty, high-end knife boutiques, asking for an assessment, and then showing them the tags and receipt. High quality entertainment IMO.)

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that I don't buy the YouTube assessment of these different blades. It's an interesting but tone-deaf comparison.

(Meanwhile, Phaedrus is in the bullpen, warming up ...?)

Belt sander? Isn’t that a little much for a knife post heat treat? Does that have no effect on temper? After years of neglect, I used an old Tri-hone (oil) and brought it back to a fine edge in about 15 minutes. I really don’t think a belt sander is necessary, but that’s just an opinion.

A belt grinder is ideal for budget knives (or really any knife except a Japanese blade IMO). It's best to stick with lower speed grinders like the Kalamazoo that runs around 1700 rpm but I've done at least hundreds of knives with a 3,700 rpm Harbor Freight cheapo. You need a light touch with the latter to avoid burning the blade but with a bit of practice it's pretty easy.

I'm baffled by the CI reviews of knives. I've had quite a few of the Victorinox Fibrox knives and sharpened perhaps a hundred of them. They will get the job done but edge retention is very poor, at least by the standards of a chef. Good for the price I suppose but a review shouldn't merely identify the cheapest blade that will turn one chunk of food into two chunks! Even an entry level Japanese gyuto like the Tojiro DP absolutely smokes the Vics. You could use the Tojiro for a couple weeks in a restaurant setting without much more than a few licks on a ceramic hone; with the Vic you'd be lucky to have a serviceable edge after a few days. For the home cook that's not as big an issue but there's no comparison between the build quality or fit and finish, either.

Obviously feel and appearance are subjective but in a serious review those elements should be given at least a cursory examination!

I would say some of the best entry level knives you can get would be the Tojiro DP line and the Kagayaki Carbonext from JCK. If you prefer a Wa handled knife there are some other good inexpensive options as well. In my mind in this day and age (circa summer 2018) something like VG-10 represents the lowest level stainless worth using, and AEB-L is a nice step up. For the $100 range you can get some decent high carbon gyutos in 52100 or Hitachi White- or Blue-Paper as well.

I must confess that most expensive ryuto/gyuto cost me around $900.

So what is the “FC61” steel used in the Zwilling ”Bob Kramer Essential” and Miyabi Evolution lines of knives. All I get is fine carbide and Rc61, but what is it really? Vanadium carbides or chromium carbides?

Excellent point- one should make a distinction between the occasional user and one who slices and dices continually. For the latter, considerations, which may well be costly, come into play and justify added expense/

A more prosaic example. The summer car camper is well served by a fairly cheap, albeit warm, sleepiing bag that is somewhat bulky and heavy. The mountaineer or climber is smart to spend big bucks to get a light, compact down bag. Getting gear that is appropriate for the intended use is the key.

Phaedrus is fine with his knife, but it would be wasted in my kitchen, where the knives are used to slice open the boxes of frozen pizza ...

So I’ve been looking for something regarding what exactly FC61 steel was and all I can find is speculation. Review Brief: Miyabi Kaizen II Chef's knife - Cooking Discussions / Cookware - Hungry Onion


So then I looked at AEB-L and found a good description at: http://devinthomas.com/faq.html
The line in the description under “What is "AEB-L" steel?”, that makes one think FC61 may be AEB-L is:


Once my Chef knife requirement was satiated by sharpening a knife already in my knife block, I went to the smaller end and ordered a paring knife in FC61. I hope the speculation on FC61 being AEB-L is correct. A paring knife that will hold a fine edge would be welcome.

As Phaedrus indicated, it's all about the operator. Light, quick passes are fine so long as the blade never gets uncomfortably warm to the touch. A nearly worn out belt can get you in trouble in that regard. I practiced a lot on beater blades before I was comfortable working on good ones.

A belt sander is not necessary for domestic kitchens. Nor are spendy knives, for that matter. Generally, the best blade for the job is a well-maintained blade. I've been on a quest for years to teach people how to do basic hand grinding and steeling (realignment) so they can get decent performance from the knives they already have.

Since I repair and recondition hundreds of knives a year, a belt sander is just about mandatory. Some of those are literally rounded off, and it takes forever by hand. I still hand-finish good quality blades, though; I haven't got around to buying a buffing wheel.

Hi,

I've gotten a blade uncomfortably warm to the touch without power equipment, just a dry piece of sandpaper.

The apex of a sharp knife is only ~1 micron thick or 1/1000 millimeter, it doesn't take a lot to burn/overheat


Most factory sharpened knives come burned from the factory. They're sharpened without coolant on beltsanders and buffers.

See
global-knife.com/catra/ test on factory vs hand sharpened edges

Will I feel the edge of my knife overheating from grinding with bare hands? - knivesandstuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDiBqEDVEZY

Summary: ~2inch strip of knife steel, blowtorch (thousands of degrees hot), 40 seconds later the knife feels warm

Hi,
Overheating knives on a beltsander could easily explain knives going dull after a few days (ignoring plate contacts).
Even a $1 knife will last more than a few days.
Most chefs use a "chef steel" or "butchers steel" to keep the blades cutting for months and months.
This is what you see for sale at restaurant supply one ~$5 knife steeled once a day lasts this professional chef 6 months

I respect what you're saying. And in addition, based on my experience, I respectfully suggest there is more to the picture.

First, I realize I was unclear: it's touching the edge that I was talking about, right as it's coming off the belt. You're absolutely right that if the mass of the blade is hot, the temper has already been messed up -- and the operator is a hack.

I'm not sure that all factory blades are messed up. That hasn't been my experience anyway. Mid-range or better blades usually "bite" properly on contact with hand stones (usually diamond for me) and that indicates that the steel at the edge is effectively the same as the steel in the mass of the blade. It's correct to note, though, that many factory edges are only fair-to-middling at best, and I find there is significant room for improvement.

Some lower-end blades, though, are absolutely temper burned right from the factory. Sometimes it's accidental, but sometimes it's a way of sexing up shoddy steel. I noted this in low-end Gerbers and early "Henckels International" blades out of China. It took me a long time to figure out WTH was going on. It seems that the layer under the extra-hard "burned" layer is tough, grainy, and highly abrasion resistant -- and it doesn't take an edge worth beans. Working through this by hand, to the "meat" of the blade, takes forever (with vigorous cursing). Only a belt sander or wet wheel can peel through it with any reasonable efficiency, after which the steel handles normally (for better or worse).

I still prefer hand sharpening, and especially hand finishing for good quality blades. There's a feedback from the blade that I don't get from the sander. But I think the scratch pattern from the sander is so much more consistent that, with practice, it might give a more durable edge -- respecting the temper, of course.

I'm not sure you realize it, but the link you posted has Phaedrus as a commenter if you scroll down. Rather like waving a flag in front of a bull? Hope that was not intentional.

So I like knife steel. I was looking at a brand of knives I hadn’t seen until recently and saw something called MC66 as a steel in one of their knife lines. So I ask myself, “Self, what is MC66??” Drum roll please...

Hitachi MC66 Knife Steel is ZDP-189. I was never too keen on ZDP-189 in an EDC blade, but in a Damascus kitchen knife the ZDP-189/MC66 would be wrapped in other softer steels. Still need to take care with chipping the edge, but that’s always true.

ZDP-189

It’s used as the core steel in the Miyabi Black line. Thinking about a 5.5” Santoku. Just thinking...

FYI: How To Choose Kitchen Knives Kitchen Knife Steel FAQ Stainless Steels

Hi,
Well , I also respect what you're saying, there is always more to the picture, its just a matter of degrees

How many mm deep does the damage go?
How bad was the damage?

Its kinda like bread , how big is the slice? And what color was it: light toast v. dark toast v. charcoal ?


The apex of the edge is like a 1 micron thick wire ,
it takes very little energy (fraction of 1 joule) to overheat to 2000F.
It can heat up real fast, as in milliseconds (1 second = 1000 milliseconds), and it cools off just as fast.

The video with the blowtorch is like a 5000 times magnification.





Not sure exactly what you mean .... but isn't that type of check very coarse ? only detects heavy damage?




How many mm of blade width are you talking about?

Cutting into a coarse stone (~200grit) like you're trying to cut it in half removes metal rather quickly.






I said "most" and that is only like half of "all" :P Is that statement hype or dry toast?


Dry grinding of all kinds seems "most" common and thats bad

https://waikato.researchgateway.ac.nz/handle/10289/10004
http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/Edge_retention_worsening_by_felt_wheel.pdf

Hahaha! Just got the chance to revisit this; today was my first day off in about five weeks.

I agree that some factory knives ship with "burnt" edges. I don't think it's common and when I do see it the damage is usually fixable by sharpening the blade a couple times. It's a pretty good rule of thumb that if the edge feels hot while you sharpen you're risking damage to the edge. But while you can overheat an edge with just sandpaper you can also keep an edge cool on powered equipment. Even a very high speed grinder is safe if contact with the belt is kept brief. This is especially true when using fine grits- they're easier to burn the edge with.

I think you'll find that using a grinder like the Kalamazoo with 80 grit Blaze ceramic belts you'll be hard pressed to burn an edge before you've ground the knife down to an ice pick.

A hand sharpened Vic will still be dull in a few days. Just for kicks I've sharpened them up to 5k, a level of polish which proved to be a complete waste of time save for the experience gained. Bear in mind that a restaurant cook will make more cuts one shift than most home cooks will make in several months. It's not uncommon to cut a fifty pound bag of onions or a half bushel case of peppers all in one go. Sometimes this is done on various other gear (choppers, etc) but just as often it's done by cook on the lowest rung on the seniority ladder.

What is the best sharpening angle that’s thin enough to dice onions, but tough enough to cut up a whole roast chicken? The Vic Forschner Chef knife was resharpened to 23º per side and it has cut up a whole roast chicken and diced onions.
Is 23º necessary for the chicken? It diced onions okay, but thinner would have been better. What sharpening angle is thin enough for onions and tough enough for chicken bones? TIA

So where does all of this leave the average knife user, someone like me, to pick a totally random user? Probably better to stay away from belt sanders and sharpen manually with some sort of jig or learn manual sharpening. But then it will be tricky to achieve consistent angles - to say nothing about achieving something as precise as 23 degrees (I probably come close to 23 , plus or minus five degrees or so).

I keep think of my grandfather's and father's ritual knife sharpening when about to process a bunch of fish (both very accomplished - they cut up a lot of finny critters) - a few strokes on a flat stone, using no name knives made from generic steel. Very soon a mess of fish were ready for cooking.

Does the type of steel really matter all that much for the average user? You hear occasionally that the heat treatment is just as important as the steel, if not more so...

It isn't all that hard to sharpen most knives - kind of relaxing, as a matter of fact, so why worry if a blade dulls after a bit of use?

I still have some of my grandfather's knives, mostly his butchering blades. They are well patinated, sharpen up serviceably, and still cut the mustard...

I picked 23º because that was the angle of the single sharpening guide I have. That said, I found a set of sharpening guides that can be attached to a sharpening stone with a rubber band. Not as precise a guide as others, but it’s quick and easy to get it close.

My focus is consumer blades (where there is a desperate need for basic sharpening). I send super-fancy blades to super-fancy shops, where their high priests determine how many angels can dance on the apex of super-hardened steel .

I find that it's the overall blade geometry, not just the sharpening angle, that determines the cutting ability of a blade.

I typically sharpen around 22.5 degrees. That supports the edge in mid-range knife steels for long life, and it's an angle people can find with a butcher's-steel-realignment-device: half of 90 is 45, and then half of 45 is 22.5.

But to get that sweet glide-through cutting ability, I put a third bevel on most blades. Essentially, I'm laying the blade almost flat on the stone or belt, and polishing off the point where the edge (secondary bevel) and the main "wedge" of the blade (primary bevel) meet. It takes great care not to scuff up the blade, but the results are very, very nice. Blades done this way glide through onions and survive whole chickens.

The Vic Fibrox chef knives I have seen have a very thick blade. (I've seen other thin Vic's, but not a Fibrox yet) This is typical of basic commercial-kitchen blades that are mechanically sharpened every week or so; it ensures long in-service life, but gives quite a fat profile. The compromise is to lay them almost flat on a slack section of the sanding belt, and the natural catenary imparts an arch instead of a hard angle, improving the cutting ability somewhat. But with some work on a hand stone, the third bevel I mentioned can be achieved, and it will make a huge difference.

Hope that helps. Easy to visualize, hard to paint with words.

I don't think the steel is all that important for a home cook. HT is at least as important as the steel but I've prepared quite a few meals at my siblings and parents homes with just whatever junk knives they had in the block. There are a few things that are very difficult to do without the right knife (or the right tool in general) but mostly having a better knife just makes it faster and easier.

A good ceramic hone (such as an Idahone) is ideal for keeping a kitchen knife in good shape. With reasonable care you can keep a working edge on a blade for a long time with just periodic honing on a rod. A leather strop is also good. Both are fairly forgiving of lackluster technique, too.

Nice post. As usual, you cut through the clutter and identify the essential.

I can set up a home chef with $20 worth of materials and a few lessons, and they will be zipping through ripe tomatoes for years. A little knowledge and a little feedback change the world.

Aside: koff*muster*koff

Thanks for all the comments. I found myself in a shop yesterday that specializes in kitchen products and they had a good selection of kitchen knives. I was able to see quite a few brands/lines, and touch and use a few of the chef knives. A Japanese style chef knife followed me home — FC61 steel, 11º-12º (per side) edge, full-tang, good overall feel. For the time being, that will be my knife for veggies (including onions), not for parting out whole chickens.

Nice! I bet you're going to enjoy using it.

I think so, next time stir fry is on the menu, I’m doing all the veggies. Meantime, now that I have those sharpening guides, I’m going to redo the edges on all the German steel (Zwilling-Henckels, Wusthof, Victorinox) here to 20º except for the Chef knife previously discussed which will remain at 23º; it should hold up better.

I think that's a great strategy. A thin blade is joyous to use, but occasionally you need a stout "main battle tank" blade for the rough work. The right tool for the job!

Interesting read at: Knife Edges 101
Seems that 20º per side for a Henckels, Wusthof, et al is correct, thinner and you risk dealing with a rolled edge. Japanese blade on the other hand are good for 15º and less, but be gentle.

Yes, that's right in my experience. Less than 20º for consumer German blades and the steel rolls too far, dulling the knife more quickly. I usually go for the slightly higher 22º range for the same reason, and polish an extra bevel for smooth cutting. But then, a lot of the knives I see don't get any maintenance except steeling for a year or more, at which time they come back to me.

The additional 2-ishº isn't really necessary for new knives, but knives get "fatter" as they wear over time, and this technique thins them a little, restoring them quite well.

And I agree that the harder steel in the thin Japanese blades is more vulnerable to chipping and cracking with heavy-handed use. That's the trade-off, at least with the stainless steel blades I've come across. I can't speak about the Damascus-style carbon blades.

I came across this excellent and entertaining piece on the dark art of knife sharpening. This guy actually talks sense! (Except regarding scissors -- pfft! And I have yet to see a pull-through sharpener worth its weight in horse...radish.)

A lot of this I had to learn the hard way. And, as always, there's more to learn.

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

Thank you very much. There is a lot of good (sharp?) stuff in that article....

As an epilogue, I found these delightful Julia Child references and had to share. It's endless fun to burrow through the wormholes in the Internet! Hope you enjoy them.

"Julia Child had a pet peeve: kitchen knives. They were never sharp enough."
http://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/70-cent-knife-brought-julia-child-cambridge-mass/

Julia Child, The French Chef- Your Own French Onion Soup ... with a lesson on her own knife preferences and (unique) steeling technique*:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw0Ij1Fxgq4&feature=youtu.be&t=164

*In my carboniferous collection there are a couple of antique steels, and man they are hard -- their Rockwell hardness is higher than anything I've ever seen in "modern" steels. And they have a super-fine groove pattern, so they are as much a micro-abrasive as a realignment tool. They will keep most any knife zipping through onions, even if the "coarse" edge causes the electron-microscope-ites to cast aspersions. I'll stop now; I think we've reached peak nerd on this thread.

Yes, enough of these cutting remarks...