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#289731 - 07/03/18 01:16 PM Thai Cave Rescue
hikermor Offline
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Loc: southern Cal
I have been following developments in this situation, as i am sure many of us have. There are rescues, there are challenging and difficult rescues, and then there are cave rescues, even the most routine of which are at a significantly more challenging level. Remember Floyd Collins??

The Thai situation dwarfs any kind of technical or cave rescue operation I have ever experienced or heard of, for that matter. The latest report is that one of the options is to teach the group scuba diving in order to get them out.

Well, there is scuba diving, and then there is cave diving, where you are dealing with restricted overhead conditions - no popping to the surface and breathing...

Years ago, I took an intro course in cave diving - two instructors and five students. Since then I know that at least two of the seven have perished while cave diving (one was an instructor), and this does not include the guy I felt was the most likely candidate - a gentleman who was bragging about the time he had spent in a decompression chamber...

It looks like they might spend four months in the cave, until the end of the rainy season, which alone poses significant complications.

Apparently the group passed warning signs notifying them of flooding dangers during the rainy season. Please do pay attention to warning signs and get a decent weather report when out and about. It is well worthwhile....

At least lessons will be learned from this incident which will be useful in future situations. It is gratifying to see the international response to this situation.
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#289743 - 07/03/18 06:12 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
haertig Offline
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Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Colorado
I am not a diver. My impression of the dangers of cave diving are: (1) Low visibility, (2) Confined spaces, (3) Navigation (getting lost). Are there other concerns that would make cave diving more dangerous than other diving?

I can imagine a SEAL in front of a rescuee, a SEAL in back, and everyone tied together with short ropes. And the entire group following a separate rope for navigation.

Other than the panic induced by having your first dive be in a confined space with no visibility, I would think the more experienced SEALS (or specialty cave divers) would be able to get you out. Just don't panic. You would be dead in a second if you panicked.

Are there other concerns?

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#289746 - 07/03/18 08:20 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Montanero Offline
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1412
Loc: North Carolina
Altitude and depth

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#289747 - 07/03/18 08:24 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
bacpacjac Offline
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Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3599
Loc: Ontario, Canada
WOW! I'm just reading about this now and came here, of course.

haertig, I just read this:

"Finding the boys took more than nine days, partly because of how difficult it is to move around the cave. The cave floods during Thailand’s rainy season and even elite Thai navy SEAL divers were finding it difficult to move through the muddy waters, currents and tight passageways." (source: https://globalnews.ca/news/4309063/thai-soccer-team-boys-rescue-cave-safely/)
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#289748 - 07/03/18 09:55 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
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Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2016
Loc: NE Illinois
I got certified for SCUBA diving as a young man maybe 30 years ago, and never continued it for misc. reasons, but ...

They are reporting that many of the boys simply cannot swim. That alone is a concern. Fins might help a tiny bit, but not sure they are practical for the tight spaces of cave diving.

I would imagine that panic is the biggest risk factor in trying to swim out. Boys who are unfamiliar with the very cramped environment that are wearing a mask and using SCUBA are very likely to panic. In their panic they might pull the mouthpiece away while still underwater, and in those tight spots there can't be anyone there to help them.

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#289749 - 07/03/18 10:12 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: haertig]
hikermor Offline
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Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
Apparently the folks on scene regard diving the group out as the most dangerous option. the safest option apparently is to lower water levels, either by pumping or the end of the rainy season, so that they can walk and/or float out..

Everything depends upon the local conditions - are there narrow bits where only one can squeeze through, perhaps towing your tank behind or below you? how swift is the current? How contorted are the passages/ - they are not necessarily nice straight tunnels.

One key element is buoyancy control - keeping one's self neutral in the water, neither rising nor falling. Bumping into the passage can release cloudy sediments and damage gear. This is something that is often quite difficult for divers to learn in swimming pool conditions with no hazards and is trickiest at relatively shallow depths. Altitude is also a complicating factor.

Diving in restricted overhead situations (typically cave or wreck diving) means that your life expectancy can be easily calculated. There is a finite amount of air in your tank and when you exhaust that, you are done. Panic and inexperience result in greater air consumption, while youth and small size decrease it.

Situations arise in cave diving (equipment problems, lose your mask or regulator, etc) where you are essentially on your own, even with a dive buddy, and it doesn't matter who is behind or ahead of you - you are on your own.

Since this is a marooned soccer team, they are probably interested in the World Cup matches, even while they are they are at the center of World Cup class rescue efforts.
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#289750 - 07/03/18 11:11 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
Thailand cave rescue update: Boys soccer...sing for 9 days
From the article it appears the rescuers are taking a methodical approach; a rope line has been laid out and they are preparing for a long term solution. I had some great ideas wink but I’m not a spelunker nor a diver, and certainly not both at the same time, so why would I even want to start kibitzing with people on scene. There is apparently a lot of talent actively involved who have much better ideas as to what is needed and possible than one can glean from a CBS news article. I wish them the best of luck.

Edit: Second link with a graphic/map of the cave. Thailand cave rescue: How to get Thai soccer team and coach out of Tham Luang Nang Non
Quote:
...The British Cave Rescue Council, which has members taking part in the operation, estimates the boys are around 1.2 miles into the cave and somewhere around half a mile below the surface. Other estimates put the boys as far as 2.5 miles into the cave. ...



Edited by Russ (07/03/18 11:50 PM)
Edit Reason: Added link & quote

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#289759 - 07/04/18 11:31 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
TeacherRO Offline
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Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2336
The main lesson here is "Don't go places that are very dangerous without the proper training, guides and equipment."

no amount of edc would have helped them; only good judgement

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#289764 - 07/05/18 09:31 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
ireckon Offline
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Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
I am wondering how they got the high quality lights and cameras down there, and how they get the video out. Then again, good cameras can be tiny these days, and the lights are already part of the equation. I answered my own question.

Related issue, it is so important to teach kids how to swim and be comfortable in water.
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#289771 - 07/06/18 03:43 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
clearwater Offline
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Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1059
Loc: Channeled Scablands
LA times is reporting one of the Volunteer SEALs has died.

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#289772 - 07/06/18 06:39 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: clearwater]
Phaedrus Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2164
Loc: Great Plains
Originally Posted By: clearwater
LA times is reporting one of the Volunteer SEALs has died.


I saw that. RIP, he was a genuine hero.
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#289774 - 07/06/18 12:07 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Phaedrus]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
Thai Cave Rescue Diver Dies From Lack of Oxygen
Quote:
... former Thai navy SEAL was working in a volunteer capacity and died during an overnight mission in which he was placing oxygen canisters. ...

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#289776 - 07/06/18 12:58 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
williamlatham Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Stafford, VA, USA
I tend to stay out of these discussions, but only fully trained cave divers should be attempting any diving inside a cave. SEALS (US or otherwise) are highly trained, but not for this type of diving. It is literally the most dangerous type of diving possible, and probably the most dangerous "sport" out there. Mistakes are generally fatal. Almost every cave in the US that you dive in has a "STOP YOU WILL DIE" placard at the entrance. It is a standard thing.

I was (am) fully cave trained, but I am way out of practice which is also necessary to maintain proficiency. I feel for the families (trapped and rescuers) as this is a really bad place for everyone. Looking at the video feeds and the equipment set-ups, there will unfortunately be in all probability more fatalities.

Regards,
Bill

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#289800 - 07/08/18 02:54 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
It appears the monsoon rain may be in charge of the decision making...
Thai Officials Clear Media as Cave Rescue Seems Imminent

After one diver died on the return dive, and considering the skillset of the boys, I really thought the idea of swimming them out was set aside. Weather...

Or maybe the media has simply become a nuisance.

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#289801 - 07/08/18 03:04 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Russ]
Russ Online   content
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#289802 - 07/08/18 11:30 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 191
Loc: Scotland
Rescue underway. Unofficially two are out.

Live News Feed, BBC

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#289803 - 07/08/18 12:36 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 191
Loc: Scotland
12:30 UTC

Six out.

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#289805 - 07/08/18 01:35 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Ian]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
Second article, Six Thai Boys Rescued from Flooded Cave

Quote:
...Six of 12 schoolboys have been rescued so far from a flooded Thai cave after divers launched a daring and dangerous mission to free the children and their soccer coach, who were trapped underground for more than two weeks, Thai officials said.
"I have received information that six have exited the cave", a senior member of the rescue team told Reuters. ... Thirteen foreign divers and five members of Thailand's elite navy SEAL unit are trying to bring the rest of the boys ...

From reading it appears the decision was made because with water levels in the cave lowered, parts of the cave were walkable and waiting would only allow the monsoon rain to fill it back up. Somebody made a decision to go for it.

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#289807 - 07/08/18 02:27 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ian Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 191
Loc: Scotland
14:30 UTC

Four out in total. Resume operation tomorrow.

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#289808 - 07/08/18 05:48 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ren Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 129
Good news they've gotten 4 out.

Presumably they have restock the gear caches (air tanks etc) along the route for the next group to make their attempt.



Edited by Ren (07/08/18 05:49 PM)

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#289809 - 07/08/18 06:41 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Ren]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
Here is an article which gives some idea of the size of the passages to be navigated:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/06/world/asia/thai-cave-rescue.html

There is considerable confusion about how far into the cave the group is located -statements vary between 2.5 miles and about 1.25 miles. I suspect some journalists are struggling with conversions from metric to English systems, since 2 kilometers is just about 1.25 miles....
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#289811 - 07/09/18 12:52 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Phaedrus Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2164
Loc: Great Plains
Hopefully they'll get the rest out safe, too.
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#289812 - 07/09/18 02:33 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Phaedrus]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
If the Good Lord's willing, and the creek don't rise (so to speak)...
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#289813 - 07/09/18 12:44 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ren Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 129


Edited by Ren (07/09/18 12:52 PM)

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#289814 - 07/09/18 01:24 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Ren]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
That’s a good link, it keeps updating. 8 total out now, 4 kids plus the coach remain.

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#289815 - 07/09/18 02:10 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ren Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 129
Seems back to preparation for the next (and guessing the last) group tomorrow.

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#289824 - 07/09/18 06:47 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
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If you need a fix, go to youtube.com and search for “Thai Cave Rescue”. Some of the video’s are a bit behind now that 8 kids have been egressed, but it’s good background. With four rescued on Sunday and four more today (Monday), it looks easy, but that’s very deceptive. The manpower behind the logistics alone setting up the chain of air tanks is all behind the curtain. There’s a lot of grunt work ongoing; 10 hours just to reset things for the next rescue day.

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#289825 - 07/09/18 08:04 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Russ]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
I hope that a detailed accounting of this rescue operation is available after this affair is concluded. The logistics involved in providing for the support of the eighteen dives evidently required is just mind numbing. Just recharging/resupplying the lights needed for this operation, never mind refilling the air tanks, is quite a chore. And there must an addition number of equally critical elements to manage (food, medicine, etc) as well.

The results so far are extremely gratifying. Let's hope this continues. A hearty well done for those working at this...
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#289828 - 07/09/18 10:07 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ren Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 129
Yeah, and most of the air, power, effort etc won't be used for the rescue journey, it'll be for resupplying.

Hope someone closely involved writes a book on it.

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#289831 - 07/10/18 11:32 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Ren]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
Ren’s link is active again: https://www.theguardian.com/news/live/20...ch-live-updates
Eleven of the boys are out - one more plus the coach...

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#289832 - 07/10/18 12:12 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Russ]
adam2 Offline
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Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 427
Loc: Somerset UK
Latest reports state that all those originally trapped are now out. All the boys and the coach.

Still remaining in the cave are several of the navy divers and a doctor.
These are experienced divers and therefore at lower risk than the novices already rescued. By no means risk free though as the tragic loss of a very experienced diver has already shown.

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#289835 - 07/10/18 12:47 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: adam2]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
Wonderful news, although marred by the tragic death. I hope that incident will be investigated thoroughly.
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#289838 - 07/10/18 02:46 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Ren Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 129
Everyone is out.

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#289844 - 07/11/18 02:48 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Ren]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1382
Yes all the boys, coach and SEAL's are out. But keep in mind that divers will be doing cleanup work; removing gear, equipment, water pumps / hoses etc for days to come. There is still a great risk in this work, but hopefully no one gets injured or worse.

One of the divers who was born and raised in our local area, was involved in the rescue op and has been recognized in the local media for his efforts.

9 days, 7 missions and 63 hours inside: B.C. diver part of daring Thai cave rescue

Also mentioned in BBC News.

Cave rescue: The divers who got the Thai boys out

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#289848 - 07/11/18 01:48 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Teslinhiker]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
Hopefully, much of the cleanup can occur post monsoon, at much lesser risk(and I a devout Leave no Trace practitioner). What I am anxious to see is the cave gate that will be installed to prevent entrance during the monsoon season. I'll bet plans are underway for that.
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#289852 - 07/12/18 01:45 AM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Teslinhiker Offline
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Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1382
Details of the rescue are starting to emerge.

Twelve young boys and their soccer coach are safe, freed from the floods in a labyrinthine set of caves in northern Thailand where they had been trapped in for more than two weeks.

Now, with the mission over and the boys recovering in the hospital, the full story of the remarkable rescue can be told.


Inside the Thai cave rescue
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Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

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#289871 - 07/13/18 02:03 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Teslinhiker]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/world/asia/thailand-cave-rescue-seals.html


Still more details -astonishing, complicated logistics
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#289923 - 07/16/18 03:24 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
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Loc: southern Cal
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/bri...eets/ar-AAA8ajj

I suppose a good many successful operations, rescue and otherwise, develop tawdry sideshows that detract from their main purpose. This i certainly the case here, with Elon Musk labeling (libeling?) the british cave diver who located the stranded soccer players a "ped," in response to the diver's opinion that Musk's rescue capsule would not have been effective in the rescue operation.

After seeing a photo of the capsule being tested in a swimming pool, I am confident the diver's opinion is correct. In caves, flooded or not, flexibility is important, like so many things in life.

Sad to see this besmirching development....
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#289924 - 07/16/18 04:13 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Teslinhiker Offline
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Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: hikermor


I suppose a good many successful operations, rescue and otherwise, develop tawdry sideshows that detract from their main purpose.


Cant see any valid purpose here at ETS to discuss the politics and accusations that are coming after the rescue. The rescue was a great success and this discussion should stay the course on the merits of the rescue.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

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#289925 - 07/16/18 04:45 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Teslinhiker]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
Agree with both posts above. It’s just a distraction from the real story and really, not newsworthy. If they don’t have anything good to say, they should say nothing.

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#289927 - 07/16/18 07:20 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Teslinhiker]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6617
Loc: southern Cal
Politics! What politics??

I agree with you completely that the main point should be the success of the mission; still, musky stuff like this seems to inevitably attach to high profile operations, often from an individual with no grounding in the environment in which the mission occurs and the hazards present.

Certainly, with something like 9,000 to 10,000 people participating in the rescue operation, logistics and planning were certainly a huge challenge. Sideshows like this tend to confuse and distract from the main operation. This presents a real challenge to those running the show.


Edited by hikermor (07/16/18 07:21 PM)
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#289928 - 07/16/18 08:23 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Teslinhiker Offline
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Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1382
My last word on this subject.

If you have closely followed the complete story, there was politics involved with the submarine plan right from the start. The end result is what we are hearing about now and culminating with EM falling on his sword.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

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#289929 - 07/16/18 08:52 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Teslinhiker]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1059
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
My last word on this subject.

If you have closely followed the complete story, there was politics involved with the submarine plan right from the start. The end result is what we are hearing about now and culminating with EM falling on his sword.


"EM falling on his sword"

"You Keep Using That Word (phrase), I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means"

-Inigo Montoya

also WSJ- Tesla shares slid 3.51% to $307.68 in morning trading in New York.


Edited by clearwater (07/16/18 08:58 PM)

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#289932 - 07/16/18 11:08 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: clearwater]
Jeanette_Isabelle Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1894
Loc: Emerald City, OZ
Originally Posted By: clearwater
also WSJ- Tesla shares slid 3.51% to $307.68 in morning trading in New York.

What does this have to do with the cave rescue?

Jeanette Isabelle
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#289933 - 07/16/18 11:48 PM Re: Thai Cave Rescue [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4939
Loc: SOCAL
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Originally Posted By: clearwater
also WSJ- Tesla shares slid 3.51% to $307.68 in morning trading in New York.

What does this have to do with the cave rescue?

Jeanette Isabelle

Nothing but the moronic tantrums of someone who shouldn’t have inserted himself.

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