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#288313 - 03/04/18 01:27 AM Knife Laws
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4963
Loc: SOCAL
Prompted by the “Bushcraft and Kitchen Duty” thread, I’ve been looking closer at Mora knives lately. It crossed my mind that my Mora Basic 546 (stainless) would make a good EDC. But then California knife laws crossed my mind and I did a bit of reading.

As innocent as a Mora Basic looks, under CA law it qualifies as a Dirk or Dagger and must therefore be carried openly. Since one of Doug’s major issues is knife laws and trying to get them to be more reasonable (my words), it would probably be good for members here to be familiar with the laws of your state/city.

Just a thought, nothing gained by becoming a felon.

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#288315 - 03/04/18 02:12 PM Re: Knife Laws [Re: Russ]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2975
Loc: USA
I use the Knife Rights app Legal Blade: https://kniferights.org/resources/legal-blade/ . Highly recommended.

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#288318 - 03/04/18 02:40 PM Re: Knife Laws [Re: chaosmagnet]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6645
Loc: southern Cal
I haven't updated my knowledge with the app, but I understand that any fixed blade must be carried openly in CA. Folders are more flexible, so to speak...
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#288320 - 03/04/18 03:50 PM Re: Knife Laws [Re: Russ]
Montanero Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1426
Loc: North Carolina
There are many variations between cities and communities, make sure (especially in California) that you look at the specific areas you will travel into.

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#288323 - 03/05/18 12:11 AM Re: Knife Laws [Re: Russ]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Southern California
CA state law requires that fixed blade knives be carried openly, or not readily accessible (i.e. buried in a backpack). But, local law can vary widely. I carry a padded SASE in case there's a problem with my pocketknife. It may be prudent to carry a collapsed prepaid shipping box for the same reason.
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#288325 - 03/06/18 12:16 AM Re: Knife Laws [Re: Montanero]
EMPnotImplyNuclear Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 327
Hi,
not a bad article,
but not quite up to date at the time of its writing ,
based on the linked video
Aug 26, 2013 OoD1pzCj5lM California Knife Laws (a former D.A. explains) - Shouse Law Group Channel


Originally Posted By: https://www.shouselaw.com/california-knife-laws.html#1

These knives -- called “dirks” or “daggers" -- may not legally be carried concealed on your person. The prohibition covers knives tucked into a waistband or other article of clothing. It also extends to knives carried in a purse, pocket, or anywhere else under your control.



From earlier that year
259908 / PEOPLE v. PELLECER | 215 Cal.App.4th 508 (2013) | 20130417044 | Leagle.com
Quote:
Thus, giving the words of the statute their ordinary and usual meaning, a dirk or dagger inside an adjacent container, such as the backpack upon which defendant was leaning, or even inside a carried container, is not "upon his or her person." The knives in defendant's backpack may have been on or about defendant's person, but the statute does not criminalize carrying a dirk or dagger on or about the person, only carrying a dirk or dagger "upon" the person.




Originally Posted By: https://www.shouselaw.com/california-knife-laws.html#1

California's has an “open-carry” law, however, for dirks and daggers. Dirks and daggers may be carried openly in a sheath -- if the sheath is worn suspended from your waist.1


This one seems silly,
as I recall another case,
guy arrested for wearing a sword or sgian-dubh openly/visibly tucked in his boot/sock, he was participating in a parade.

There may have even been a memo from the AG explaining that "suspended from your waist" is an example of what you can do and not a requirement for what you must do.

I can't seem to google it though smile

There is at least one guy , I'm told , spotted in california in south sf bay area, wearing a fixed blade strapped in a sheath accross his back in the past decade -- highly visible.



Also not a fan of the propaganda language used in the legislation being repeated ( dirk/dagger ) instead of using the definition of readily usable stabbing weapon like fixed blade knife or screwdriver or pointy stick or thumbtack

Cause the law is never afraid to try to pull a fast one by misusing the propaganda
In re: Luke W 88 Cal. App. 4th 650

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#288326 - 03/06/18 12:34 AM Re: Knife Laws [Re: EMPnotImplyNuclear]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6645
Loc: southern Cal
Fascinating. It would seem that if you carry a fixed blade, hang it from your belt or place it in your pack (which is where I habitually place a Mora). Evidently this would be a good idea, even if your would not call the blade a dirk or a dagger. Agree?
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#288338 - 03/07/18 03:58 AM Re: Knife Laws [Re: hikermor]
EMPnotImplyNuclear Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 327
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Fascinating. It would seem that if you carry a fixed blade, hang it from your belt or place it in your pack (which is where I habitually place a Mora). Evidently this would be a good idea, even if your would not call the blade a dirk or a dagger. Agree?


Sure, why not smile

As long as you pay attention to length/location restrictions ,
esp if it matches up to your carry preferences,
there is no harm in being extra cautions,
like keeping a copy of the laws (or just references) printed up,
or getting opinion letters from the A.G. or D.A. about extra concerns
...
USKnife.pdf
USKnife2.pdf
Originally Posted By: http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife.pdf
California
Penal Code 20310 thru 21590 Y No Limit Jim March in his CA knife Law paper states there is no blade length for Pocket knives. No Knife with a blade Longer
Than 2 ½ inches on the grounds of any Private/Public College or University (626.10)
Los Angeles Co. CA 13.62.010 Y <3" shall include any knife having a blade of three inches or more in length;
13.62.020 unlawful for any person to carry on his person, in plain view, any knife
Alameda Co. CA 9.12.050 Y <3" Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length
Belmont, CA 15-22 Y <3" any knife with a blade three (3) inches or more in length,
Ceres, CA 9.12.010 Y <3" Any knife having a blade three inches (3”) or more in length,
Chino, CA 9.84.010 Y <3" Any knife with a blade three inches or more in length,
Chino Hills, CA 12.40.170 & 12,40,240 Y <3" in city parks, any knife having a blade of three inches or more in length
Citrus Heights, CA 33-73 Y <3" any knife having a blade measuring from the handle of three (3) inches or more in length, any knife that will not shut,
Colton, CA 12-7 Y <3" any knife with a blade three inches or more in length,
Colusa, CA 12-7 Y <3" any knife with a blade three inches or more in length,
Commerce, CA 9.16.051 Y <3" shall include any knife, dirk or dagger having a blade of three inches or more in length;
Contra Costa, Co. CA 9.16.050 Y <3" shall include any knife, dirk or dagger having a blade of three inches or more in length;
Corte Madera, CA 9.16.051 Y <3" shall include any knife, dirk or dagger having a blade of three inches or more in length;
Costa Mesa, CA 12-57 In "Skate Parks" No person shall have a dangerous weapon in his/her possession. Deadly weapons shall include, knives,
E. Palo Alto, CA 9.24.010 Y <3" any knife with a blade three inches or more in length
Fontana, CA 16-131 Y <3" Any knife with a blade three inches or more in length;
Glendale, CA 9.24.050 Y <3" having a blade three (3) inches or more in length,
Lake Forest, CA 13.04.010 Y <3" having a blade of three inches or more in length in any Park or Recreation Facility
Marin Co. CA 6.52.010 Y <3" Conceals any knife with a blade three inches or more in length on them on in a vehicle.
Maywood, CA 4-4.01 Y <3" any knife with a blade three (3&#8243;) inches or more in length
Mendota, CA 9.24.020 Y 2" possess a knife with a blade longer than 2" while being present in any establishment serving alcoholic beverages.
Mission Viejo, CA 13.04 Y <3" No person shall carry on his person, in plain view, any knife 3" or longer in any City Park
Modesto, CA 4-2.03.1 Y <3" Dangerous Weapon ... Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length
Morro Bay, CA 9.04.030 No Possession or Carrying of Knife during declared Emergency.
Mountain View, CA 21.9 Y <3" any knife with a blade three (3) inches or more in length,
Newark, CA 12.16.240 In Parks knife other than pocket knife, capable of cutting, defacing or mutilating trees or shrubs
Oakland, CA. 9.36.010 Y <3" Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length,
Orange, CA 5.72.075 During Special Pageant no carry of any knife
Pasadena, CA 9.84.020 Y <5" in a concealed manner, any knife or other similar instrument with a blade or sharp edge 5 inches or longer
Patterson, CA 9.36.010 Y <3" Any knife having a blade three or more inches in length
Perris, CA 7.22.040 Y <3" In Parks. Recreation Facilities: No person shall carry in plain view, any knife with a blade in excess of three inches
Pismo Beach, CA 9.16.030 Y <3" No person shall wear or carry in plain view any knife upon any public street or place or place open to the public.
Pittsburg, CA 9.92.040 Y <3" unlawful for any person to carry concealed upon his person any knife having a blade three (3) inches or more
Plumas Co, CA 5-7.01 Y <3.5" Carry on Fairgrounds any knife with a blade over three and one-half (3½") inches in length
Redding, CA 10.56.010 Y <3" “dangerous or deadly weapon” means any knife with a blade three inches or more in length
Richmond, CA 11.12.010 Y <3" Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length
Sacramento Co. CA 9.32.010 Y <3" any knife with a blade three inches or more in length;
Salinas, CA 21-44 & 21-56. Y <3" The term “dangerous or deadly weapon” includes, or knife other than a pocket knife,
San Anselmo, CA 4-5.03 Y <3" any knife with a blade three (3") inches or more in length
San Juan Capa, CA 5-21.01. Y <3" blade of three (3) inches or more in length
San Mateo Co. CA 3.16.010 Y <3" any knife with a blade three inches (3”) or more in length,
Sierra Madre, CA 9.28.020 Y <3" any knife with a blade three inches or more in length
Temecula, CA 12.04.010 & 12.04.110 Y <3" having a blade of three inches or more in length
Windsor, CA 15-32 Y <4" Knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, not allowed in City Hall
West Covina, CA 15-32 Y <4" Knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, not allowed in City Hall
Westlake Vill., CA 4.3.005. Y <3" carry in plain view on his or her person any knife having a blade of three or more inches




More interesting quotes

In re Luke W. (2001) 88 Cal.App.4th 650 88 Cal.App.4th 650
Originally Posted By: http://www.lawlink.com/research/CaseLevel3/78002

In light of the legislative history of the 1997 amendment to section 12020, particularly as expressed in Assemblymember Martinez's letter, the apparent intent of the amendment was to avoid criminalizing the carrying of knives that are not capable of ready use because they are carried in a closed, secured state. The usual practice in interpreting criminal statutes requires a strict construction of "dirk or dagger." (People v. Bain (1971) 5 Cal.3d 839, 850 [97 Cal.Rptr. 684, 489 P.2d 564]; George W., supra, 68 Cal.App.4th at p. 1214.) Although they may not have folding blades, small knives obviously designed to be carried in a pocket in a closed state, and which cannot be used until there have been several intervening manipulations, comport with the implied legislative intent that such knives do not fall within the definition of proscribed dirks or daggers but are a type of pocketknife excepted from the statutory proscription.

The object containing appellant's knife fits readily and compactly into the pocket of any article of clothing. And whether housed in a loose or tightfitting pocket, we conclude the knife blade cannot, given its snug fit, be easily extracted from its slot without using both hands: one hand or a substitute vice-like mechanism must hold the container steady, while the finger and thumb of the other hand pull at the designated ridged circles. As such, it constitutes a pocketknife exception to section 12020, subdivision (a).

ab_78_cfa_19970407_130715_asm_comm.html
Originally Posted By: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/97-98/bill/asm/ab_0051-0100/ab_78_cfa_19970407_130715_asm_comm.html

5) When are Dirks and Daggers Illegally Carried Concealed ?

a) Case Law . Under current Section 12020, dirks or daggers
are considered to be illegally carried only if carried
concealed upon the person. Case law suggests that this is
under the person's clothes.

b) AB 78 . At the request of the Buck Knives, AB 798 also
provides that a dirk or dagger is not illegally carried
concealed if it is carried in a backpack, tool belt, tackle
box, briefcase, purse, or similar container that is used to
carry or transport possessions. This appears to be
consistent with current case law.

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#288366 - 03/10/18 05:46 PM Re: Knife Laws [Re: Russ]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1360
A couple of practical thoughts.
I trained with a variety of blades and sticks for a long time, mostly because I went overseas (Africa) and it was necessary to have some type of practical defense in rural areas. my attitude about "knife carry" was more supportive in those days. I am happy that I never had to use any of these weapons for any kind of real-life situation (i.e. defense against criminals).

My attitude changed again after spending the last 2 years in Brazil. My Brazilian family (my wife's family) are farmers. It is common practice for farmers to slaughter and butcher large animals by hand in Brazil. They do this to save money, and also because all the farmers have retained the knowledge of how to kill and prepare meat. These are skills that have been 'lost' for most people in countries like the USA and Europe, where things are more industrialized.

It makes a big impression when you see a pig killed with a knife. The biggest thing you learn is just how dangerous a knife really is, and how easily a victim can be lethally injured. After seeing this process, I resolved NEVER to allow a person with a knife to be close to me (or my family). And really, this is the same lesson that US police are trained with - do not go close to an assailant with a knife. Tell them to put the weapon down, or if they refuse, shoot them. I cannot blame the police at all for this procedure ... it's practical and realistic.

Keep these thoughts in mind of you are carrying a blade for any reason. If you go close to someone who is a farmer and knows the butchering of animals, they are not going to think positively about what you are doing. These days, I only use knives as tools - and very carefully.

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#288371 - 03/11/18 04:13 AM Re: Knife Laws [Re: Pete]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2727
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Pete, I think these are very practical thoughts.

We who frequent ETS naturally think of knives as tools, first, second, and third. Quite correctly; we are a cautious, responsible and law-abiding crowd. Our knives are there to support and assist, not to threaten or destroy.

Naturally, as reasonable and responsible people, we roll our eyes at any opposite assumption by the uninformed -- that knives are weapons first and always.

In the hands of reasonable people, they are not.

The fact remains, though, that there are many who are not reasonable, nor responsible, nor trustworthy. Knives can be devastatingly effective in their hands, to threaten or destroy. And it is practically impossible for the blunt instruments of law to make these fine distinctions. That's just the reality. Or so it seems to me. Insert "Facepalm" emoticon here

= = =

But let me step back, and for discussion give you a practical example based on a sideline micro-business idea I have been kicking around.

You see, it annoys me to see people attempting to cook with a fleet of obscenely dull knives (a.k.a. funny shaped sticks, tent pegs) in their kitchens. Yes, I surreptitiously check their knife blocks when visiting, and yes, that's a little weird. But I try to be circumspect in offering assistance. Some accept with great gusto, and some don't know what to make of it.

So, I thought -- with impeccable logic -- if they could drop by a place like a car wash (open all hours anyway) and run their horrid blades through a good quality self-serve sharpener, for a buck or two, the world would be a better place, right?

Except, that presupposes reasonable people with honourable intent. You have a till with cash, a minimum wage attendant, and an excuse for numbskulls to walk in with large kitchen blades. Could this possible go awry (heavy sarc.)? Nobody would touch it with a barge pole, for safety and security and liability reasons. I can't blame them. And there dies an otherwise brilliant business idea (I'll add it to the list).

= = =

Pardon my rambling thoughts; I'm just thinking out loud. I regret they don't come to an actionable conclusion.

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