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#290944 - 10/24/18 08:23 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 571
Loc: UK
clearwater:
> Local General Store (Ace Hardware) had bear spray on sale for hunting season for $19.95.

Like I said:
> if you are going with a firearm.

Whether you should be using a firearm is a seperate issue.
I'm just pointing out the differences between calibres seems exaggerated.

qjs

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#290946 - 10/24/18 12:35 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 571
Loc: UK
Montanero wrote:
> What kills is penetrating through something vital and causing > enough damage. So large and fast would be good.

Sounds logical. But you could also say the smaller the bullet, the deeper it is going to penetrate, increasing the chances of hitting something vital.
As I said: the laws of physics are a bit hard to argue with. That much energy is hitting the baddie, whatever shape the bullet is.
And the proof is in the pudding. With the possible exception of the .400 Corbon, all those calibres are used by many police. I'm sure we'd be hearing from officers who were being gunned down while their bullets were not dropping the baddies, if some didn't work.
There doesn't seem to be that much difference in reality.
qjs

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#290949 - 10/24/18 02:33 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
gonewiththewind Offline
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
It is a ratio of velocity and mass, kinetic energy. A small bullet with great velocity can do great damage, but it still needs to hit something vital and do serious damage to it. It is more about bullet placement, marksmanship. Emptying a large caliber handgun at a charging bear may do nothing to stop it, or you may get lucky and 1 bullet may hit a vital spot. If you do not take the time to aim, you are just depending on luck.

All of that said, if you have a large caliber with a very high velocity, it will likely do serious damage no matter where it hits. But it is difficult to carry a 50 caliber machine gun around.

Bullet design can increase the amount of tissue damage caused, and prevent over penetration, though with a bear in the wild over penetration is not a significant concern. If all of the kinetic energy of the bullet is dissipated into the target, that is "stopping power". Most handguns do not possess enough potential kinetic energy to stop a grizzly bear, so you must either scare it away, cause enough pain to discourage an attack, or kill it.

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#290951 - 10/24/18 02:54 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: gonewiththewind]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
"cause enough pain to discourage an attack," - which is what bear spray is intended to accomplish. In actual use, bear spray seems to work pretty well.

Unless I am hunting, I don't bother bringing a firearm into the field - heavy, very specialized, and potentially dangerous if misused. The ballistics data in this thread forces me realize that my trusty 357 Magnum is no longer state of the art...
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#290952 - 10/24/18 03:29 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 571
Loc: UK
I'm sticking to quickjoeysmalls' first rule of gunfighting:

'If you are somewhere you need to carry a gun: leave'.

Nothing is getting me into grizzly territory! :-)

qjs

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#290953 - 10/24/18 06:08 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
I say hike your own hike.

Pepper Spray has worked for many and with prices hitting $20 it would seem cheap for everyone out in predator country to have some. There would be shelf life, quick access, and storage issues (and situations where it wouldn't work) to be mindful of.

Handguns work for many too as noted in the article. No shelf life, work in tents, and in the wind. Can be used with one hand. Expensive and not suitable for every location by law or by certain people.
I have my Boy Scouts carry pepper spray on hikes since we have occasional grizzly, wolf and cougar threats in our part of the state. The spray needs to be out and in the front of the group and carried by many people or you have disaster like the NOLS group in Alaska had. Guns would be unsuitable by Scouting rules, and while some scouts (and leaders) could be responsible enough-----

Rifles have more power but take two hands to use and are hard to manage when doing other activities. The 375 Ruger I mentioned is the inexpensive equal to the old 375 H&H used for African big game. If a big bear needed shooting, that would be a good one.

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#290955 - 10/24/18 06:26 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: gonewiththewind]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Montanero
It is a ratio of velocity and mass, kinetic energy. A small bullet with great velocity can do great damage, but it still needs to hit something vital and do serious damage to it. It is more about bullet placement, marksmanship. Emptying a large caliber handgun at a charging bear may do nothing to stop it, or you may get lucky and 1 bullet may hit a vital spot. If you do not take the time to aim, you are just depending on luck.

All of that said, if you have a large caliber with a very high velocity, it will likely do serious damage no matter where it hits. But it is difficult to carry a 50 caliber machine gun around.

Bullet design can increase the amount of tissue damage caused, and prevent over penetration, though with a bear in the wild over penetration is not a significant concern. If all of the kinetic energy of the bullet is dissipated into the target, that is "stopping power". Most handguns do not possess enough potential kinetic energy to stop a grizzly bear, so you must either scare it away, cause enough pain to discourage an attack, or kill it.
OK...my current choice is to carry spray, and I usually stay out of these bears, guns, and spray discussions. My choice these days is bear spray, and situational awareness. However, for those inclined to carry a firearm in bear country, I will make a couple of comments from an Alaska perspective.

First off, while people have on occaision successfully used smaller caliber handguns (9mm, 45 ACP, etc) for bear defense, the general concensus is still to use the most powerful firearm and load that you can hit with. Likewise, in hunting, people have taken bears with relatively small rifles. However, most opt for a big gun. Years ago, in a hunt, I killed a brown bear with a 338 Win Mag, shooting 250 gr Nosler Partition bullets. That did the job. The 375 H&H Mag is also very popular for bear hunting. Hunting guides occasionally have to go into the pucker brush after a bear wounded by a client. Some guides opt for a 458 Win Mag for that sort of work.

For bear defense, the general consensus is either a big rifle such as above, or a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. If you choose to carry a handgun, most recommend at least a 44 Mag with a 6 inch barrel.

Regarding ammunition, with big bears, penetration is crucial, and outweighs expansion. The ideal shot for a bear is to hit the shoulder, breaking bones and driving through into the chest cavity. Brown bears have big solid bones. And their thick coat, especially when wet, also impeads the bullet. If you hit the head, note that the bones in bear skulls are very thick, and slope like the front of a tank. Over penetration is never an issue with big bears. Hence for handguns like the 44 Mag, most knowledgable people choose a heavy, hardcast bullet driven as fast as possible. See for example: HSM Bear Ammunition 44 Remington Magnum 305 Grain Lead Wide Flat Nose (just an example, no affiliation).

Bottom line, my personal choice is bear spray. For those inclined to carry a firearm, the best choice is the most powerful gun you can consistently hit with, shooting the most powerful penetrating loads you and the gun can handle.
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"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#290956 - 10/24/18 06:55 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: quick_joey_small]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I have very limited experience in grizz country - exactly one overnight in Denali NP following three weeks on the big hill. We were in country where grizz had been reported recently and we were very scrupulous in our conduct - cooked at a distance from our tent = stashed food and smelly things also at a distance, stayed together and made noise in thick brush, etc. It was one of the most pleasant camps I have ever made, with magnificent vistas and a gorgeous sunset. We did not carry bear spray. I don't believe it was in common use then (1987).

In grizz country, play by the rules for avoidance. Keep a clean camp and be aware. There are gratifying rewards. And be aware that are plenty of more mundane, commonplace hazards which will get you just as dead.
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Geezer in Chief

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#290957 - 10/24/18 09:33 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
GoatMan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 119
I rely more on bear spray than anything else. But I also own a Glock 20 with Buffalo Bore 10mm 210gr (1200fps/703ft.lbs) that I can optionally carry. I figure the spray is the first line of defense. If I have both with me, and have the time, draw both. Deploy the spray and if pursuit continues, unload. But if the bear has had any taste of blood, consider the spray completely ineffective. If it was a defensive attack, either shoot or play dead. If it was a predatory attack, fight back anyway you can.

Interesting read: https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.firearms

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#290958 - 10/24/18 10:14 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
How many people actually live in or venture out in bear country and fear enough that carrying the equivalent of a small cannon is required - just in case?

Here where I live, we have the highest concentration of black bears in NA with a population estimate of 120,000 to 160,000. Even on the low end estimate of 120,000, that number is still higher then the low end bear population estimates in the combined states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Colorado. Black bear sightings here, are a very common occurrence. Yet almost all outdoors oriented people are not routinely packing a firearm - and it is not all due to our much more restrictive gun laws. Simply put, it is not about being scared of bears. Instead, it is all about respecting these magnificent animals and being bear aware.

As for Grizzly bears. In the lower 48 of the USA, there are only about 1500 Grizzlies left. So the odds of being attacked are slim to none and it is highly probable that an attack by other wild or domesticated animals has a much better chance of suddenly and unmercifully ending your life.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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