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#288216 - 02/19/18 08:05 PM Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Defense Against Bears with Pistols: 97% Success rate, 37 incidents by Caliber
"The 37 cases include one that can fairly be described as a “failure”.

"We have found four cases where 9 mm pistols were used to defend against bears. All were successful."

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense...ents-by-caliber


Edited by Doug_Ritter (02/19/18 09:31 PM)

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#288219 - 02/19/18 09:46 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Doug_Ritter Offline

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Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2197


Article from the 70s: .44 Magnum http://www.fepco.com/bear_attack.html
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#288220 - 02/19/18 09:52 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
chaosmagnet Offline
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
I'd really hate to have to hurt a bear, but it's good to know that it can be done if needed.

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#288221 - 02/19/18 10:05 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
TeacherRO Offline
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Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
Yes but... Bear spray more effective than a handgun...

Be aware of exactly the study is saying.

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#288224 - 02/19/18 10:49 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: TeacherRO]
chaosmagnet Offline
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: TeacherRO
Yes but... Bear spray more effective than a handgun...

Be aware of exactly the study is saying.


Yes. I should have phrased that more clearly. I would definitely prefer bear spray with a handgun as a backup.

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#288225 - 02/19/18 11:28 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: chaosmagnet]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
FWIW, I would spray first, with perhaps a short (18 1/2")barrel shotgun loaded with some sequence of slugs/OO buckshot if in serious bear country. Glad to know that a 357 seems to be effective, because that is what I own.

But really, why this emphasis on bear attacks? Falls and drownings kill many more people, year in and year out, and honey bees regularly off more folks than bears, as does faithful Fido. But Death by Bear is spectacular....
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#288227 - 02/20/18 12:24 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: hikermor]
dougwalkabout Offline
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Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: hikermor
FWIW, I would spray first, with perhaps a short (18 1/2")barrel shotgun loaded with some sequence of slugs/OO buckshot if in serious bear country. Glad to know that a 357 seems to be effective, because that is what I own.

But really, why this emphasis on bear attacks? Falls and drownings kill many more people, year in and year out, and honey bees regularly off more folks than bears, as does faithful Fido. But Death by Bear is spectacular....


What he said!

(Excepting the .357 ... not worth the fuss up here.)


Edited by dougwalkabout (02/20/18 12:27 AM)

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#288229 - 02/20/18 05:44 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Phaedrus Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
I'm fairly proficient with handguns but in my limited time in big bear country I've gone with bear spray backed up with a 12 ga shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs. Bears are pretty fast, not a lot of time for rapid follow up shots. I'm more confident in my ability to place shots accurately with a long gun than a sidearm. Still the bear spray would have been my first line of defense and luckily neither was necessary.
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#288232 - 02/22/18 08:04 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: TeacherRO]
clearwater Offline
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Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: TeacherRO
Yes but... Bear spray more effective than a handgun...

Be aware of exactly the study is saying.



Very misleading title and article. They are attempting to blend two different studies measuring two different things.

1--- Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in AlaskaThe high success rate for bear spray is against bears that were nearby, not necessarily attacking or charging. Most were just curious or looking for food. If you look at the pepper spray success rate for the 9 charging griz attacks in that study, you find only 3 times that it worked. 33% success

2---The firearm study Efficacy of firearms for bear deterrence in Alaska was studying many cases where the bear was already wounded, mostly hunting situations, and they didn't increase their database with other types of incidents.
They said-
"First, because bear-inflicted injuries are closely covered by the media, we likely did not miss many records where people were injured. Therefore, even if more incidents had been made available through the Alaska DLP database, we anticipate that these would have contributed few, if any, additional human injuries. Second, including more DLP records would have increased the number of bears killed by firearms. Finally, additional records would have likely improved firearm success rates from those reported here, but to what extent is unknown."

Every year i come across wolf, bear or mtn lion where I hike, hunt and camp. Sometimes by myself or with my dog, sometimes with children. I am not going to be drowning or falling or struck by lightning in most places. More likely to twist an ankle or get turned around, but also the possibility of animal
problems too. When I lived in California I prepared for other common dangers, avalanche, wildfire, rockfall, snowstorms, stream crossings etc.

To each his own hike.


Edited by clearwater (02/22/18 08:28 PM)

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#290250 - 08/17/18 10:01 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
TeacherRO Offline
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Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
The bear always bats last; if you'll allow the metaphor

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#290254 - 08/17/18 10:46 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: TeacherRO]
dougwalkabout Offline
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Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Up on this side of the Medicine Line, we'd say "the bear has the hammer." grin

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#290255 - 08/18/18 12:29 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
haertig Offline
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Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
When it comes to bears (actually, ANY wildlife), I am more of a "enjoy from a distance, avoid close encounters!" type person than a "what caliber do I shoot it with?" person.

But I'm just a hiker in the lower 48. If I were a fisherman up in Alaska brown bear country, I wouldn't be looking for the smallest caliber that someone said was effective, I'd be looking for the most powerful thing I could manage to carry and shoot effectively. For handguns, I'd be investigating things like .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .500 S&W, .45-70 Gov, etc. Sorry .357 Mag, I like you a lot, but you're not even at the bottom of my list of choices for bears, you're not on the list at all. I've shot those other large guns, they're not fun "range toys", but I'm not terribly recoil-shy and and hit well with them. On the first shot, that is. The followup shot is more likely to take out a 747 flying overhead though, unless I take the requisite 5 seconds to bring the muzzle back down on target! I'd much rather have a rifle, and a powerful one at that. With bears, it's just better to take camera shots, not gun shots.

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#290288 - 08/21/18 01:27 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
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Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Darn facts just get in the way of "common sense".

Grizzly less than an hour from where I live playing in the sprinkler.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/aug/14/grizzly-bear-raids-chicken-coops-chases-sheep-in-n/

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#290566 - 09/16/18 05:33 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
brandtb Offline
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Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 500
Loc: S.E. Pennsylvania
Article I saw on another site. Man stops bear attack with Glock 10mm -

https://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2018/09/man-stops-new-mexico-bear-attack-with.html

Excerpts -

The mesa is not very large. The temperature, even at 6500 feet, was in the upper 80's. The bear and dogs heated up and slowed down quickly. They were fighting on a little bench, right under the rimrock. It was strewn with refrigerator sized boulders, with some cedar trees, good sized for the area, but too small for a bear to climb.

Complacency is the enemy of everyone who works in dangerous situations. People do things hundreds of times. They start taking shortcuts. Bridger normally carries a Glock 20 in a Galco holster, when he is hunting bears with clients.

- - - -

As an after thought, he takes the Glock 20 10mm semi-automatic pistol from his vehicle and shoves it in his waist band behind his cowboy belt. It is loaded with 175 grain Hornady Critical Duty FlexLock loads. The magazine only has 10-12 rounds in it. A few months earlier, he had heard the theory of "spring set". He decided not to keep the magazine fully loaded.

- - - -

This bear never read the rulebook. It does not run. The bear sees Bridger, turns toward him, and flattens its ears back along its head. Its eyes have locked on Bridger. Bridger has watched hundreds of bears in similar situations. He knows he has been targeted. He drops the phone and snatches the Glock from his belt.
- - - -

Bridger does not remember shooting during the fall. His family found shell casings down the trail of broken tree limbs and brush. He knew the Glock was his lifeline. His right hand is skinned and bruised. He holds on with a death defying grip.

Bear and man stop downslope, wedged into brush and boulders. Bridger can feel the bear. He frantically attempts to disentangle. The bear rears erect, jaws ready to strike. Bridger shoots him again, in the front of his chest. Bridger slides/falls further down the slope. The bear pursues him. He screams at Janelle to stay away.

- - - -

He fires. The bear releases his lower thigh, then grabs his calf, just below the knee. The shot missed the spine. Man and bear are moving fast, but in Bridger's hyper aware state, time is slowed. He sees an opportunity for a headshot. He presses the trigger on the Glock.

Click.

End excerpts

As a Glock 9mm carrier I was particularly interested in this -

The magazine only has 10-12 rounds in it. A few months earlier, he had heard the theory of "spring set". He decided not to keep the magazine fully loaded.

I Googled it, but could not find anything except ads for after-market springs for Glocks.



Edited by brandtb (09/16/18 05:34 PM)
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#290572 - 09/16/18 07:43 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
LesSnyder Offline
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Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1680
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
Brian... I've been a competitive USPSA style shooter for over 35 years, and yes, springs in general will take a set...but... I've been using the Glock platform since 2005(through about 4 generations of magazines) and never had a feed related problem with a full magazine... that being said I change out mag springs about every 3 years, and empty the mags between matches....to help alleviate excessive torsional fatigue, I do not follow this routine with my carry magazines...I do not routinely load and unload my carry magazines when I practice with the G43, but rather use a dedicated magazine after the original trial period with the new pistol is successful (minimum 300 hardball and 200 hand load JHP with same bullet style as that carried, with the carry magazine and reload)....

not to second guess the gentleman, I think I would load a couple of solids for the first couple of shots...


Edited by LesSnyder (09/16/18 07:45 PM)

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#290573 - 09/16/18 07:45 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: brandtb]
M_a_x Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 1203
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: brandtb

As a Glock 9mm carrier I was particularly interested in this -

The magazine only has 10-12 rounds in it. A few months earlier, he had heard the theory of "spring set". He decided not to keep the magazine fully loaded.

I Googled it, but could not find anything except ads for after-market springs for Glocks.


The spring set probably is not that much of a problem. It mainly is an issue with material and heat treatment. Springs loose some tension when they experience sustained stress beyond a certain level for extended periods of time. For a service pistol that should have been taken in consideration for design. If the set happens you might loose a round or two from your magazine capacity. When you take the pistol to the range for practice, a developing FTF problem should be detected early enough to take measures (i. e. change the spring or the entire magazine).
I have some buddies who are LEOs and have their magazine fully loaded when on duty. None of them mentioned problems with magazine springs.
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#290582 - 09/17/18 11:43 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
chaosmagnet Offline
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
In general, modern handgun magazine springs will last for years before having any issues. I’ve been told that storing magazines full will have at most a minimal effect on how long the spring lasts, apparently the number of compression cycles has a much greater impact on service life.

There are knowledgeable people who “download” their MSR magazines by a round or two to make reloading easier while the bolt is closed. The practice of not fully loading a pistol magazine is much less common, in my experience.

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#290584 - 09/17/18 02:56 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
The man described later how his choice of projectile was made that day.

" I’m in the off season so there’s “man stopper” hollow points in my glock that was sitting in my truck door. I wasn’t hunting! Exercising dogs remember. For all you “know it all’s” I’m fully aware that those rounds are not bear medicine. I use 220 grain hard cast when I’m actually hunting.

2. The glock did not malfunction on its own. When I smashed it against the bears body I took it out of battery and was clearly my fault. sorry I was a little stressed at the moment! No fault of the pistol. Also the reason he didn’t crash then was I missed his spine. Sorry he wasn’t holding still for me.

[censored] that made the comment about me not holding my ground just simply hasn’t been in this situation. It was either move or he’s gonna run me over! I guess you’d have held your ground anyhow huh?

4. I have great big heavy revolvers. They’re great guns. But as one of you said earlier if this situation doesn’t make you a high capacity mag guy nothing will. I’ll never go “dangerous situation” anymore without one! So I definitely agree on that. No more five shooters for me!

5. No holster because I was just exercising dogs remember? I didn’t even have a gun until wife showed up with my truck. Forgive me for that!

6. And as far as bear spray give me the gun every time. The author here, Dean has basically proven heavily that contrary to popular belief guns are way more effective then bear spray. Do your research and make your best judgment according to your own needs.

Sorry I just had to pipe up because I got angry reading all you arm chair QB’s criticism. This was a spooky gosh dang deal! I apologize to all of you that commented who were cordial and I really appreciate some of your comments. It’s not my intention to offend anyone. It just shows how the internet allows a person to just mouth off with no repercussions. My apologies and y’all can now say anything you want I just had to pipe up a little. Take care!
"

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#290593 - 09/17/18 10:53 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Phaedrus Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
Hi capacity is great but a more powerful gun would have been better. As much as some like to mythologize the 10mm as being a powerhouse the truth is it's a bit weak compared to the heavy revolvers that knowledgeable folks prefer in bear country.

Survival is a pass/fail test! But if graded I suppose the fellow gets a D/D- since he looked nearly as bad as the bear! At the end of the day his head was still attached to his body though unlike Mr Bear.
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#290595 - 09/18/18 02:36 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: Phaedrus]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
"And as far as bear spray give me the gun every time. The author here, Dean has basically proven heavily that contrary to popular belief guns are way more effective then bear spray."

From an earlier post - enlighten me please...Who is "Dean" and what is the study he is referencing??

I am mostly familiar with Stephen Herrero's work which seems to indicate that bear spray and a clean camp, especially, is effective in stopping attacks.
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#290606 - 09/18/18 09:01 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: hikermor]
clearwater Offline
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Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Dean is the writer of the article in the link from the initial post.

In that article he says of Herraro-

"The often cited Efficacy of firearms for bear deterrence in Alaska by Tom S. Smith, Stephen Herrero, and others, included 37 instances of a handgun being present when a bear attacked a human. The instances collected were from 1883 to 2009. They recorded 6 failures to stop the attack out of the 37 instances. That is an 84% success rate. Pistol and ammunition technology have greatly improved since 1883.

The authors of the Efficacy of firearms have not released their data. There could be as many as six instances of overlap between the Efficacy of firearms data set and our collection, so a combination of the data is not useful unless the Effficacy of firearms data set is released. We cannot know how many of the six “failures” of the efficacy study might be because the handgun was never attempted to be used, was unable to be accessed because it was buried in a pack, or for other reasons."




Edited by clearwater (09/18/18 09:04 PM)

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#290607 - 09/18/18 09:06 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Also here is another recent bear spray failure-

"https://www.guns.com/2018/09/18/grizzlies-kill-wyoming-man-as-bear-season-stalled-by-lawsuit-video/

" The experienced guide had fatal injuries consistent with a bear attack. Investigators recovered a discharged can of bear spray near his body."

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#290656 - 09/21/18 05:12 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
GoatMan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 119
Creepy detail of the latest Wyoming griz attack.

https://trib.com/lifestyles/recreation/w...4562b06717.html

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#290658 - 09/21/18 05:33 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
Very scary!
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#290916 - 10/22/18 02:09 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Jax Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 15
Loc: Missouri
A good revolver is what I usually carry with me.

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#290923 - 10/23/18 04:17 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
There is the story of tourists on the bus in Alaska. One fellow asked what the large spray canisters were that hung from a couples pack belt. They replied they were pepper spray to stop bear attacks. He replied he preferred lead based bear deterrent.

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#290929 - 10/23/18 04:45 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I thin this incident makes the point that some situations are unwinnable - both a firearm and bear spray were present and neither did the job. Probably you should carry what you are most comfortable and deploy it effectively - and hope you don't encounter a determined grizz...
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#290930 - 10/23/18 04:52 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 571
Loc: UK
The laws of physics are a bit hard to argue with. Here's the foot/pounds handgun calibres produce in Corbon DPX, which the stopping power guru Evan Marshall says 'is simply the best'.
Whether you agree with him or not, you can see that the major calibres of 38 Super Auto + P,.357 mag, .357 sig, 10mm, .40, 45 Auto + P and 400 Corbon, don't actually have that much foot pounds between them.
And the 9mm + P isn't a huge way behind (15% between it and the .357 Mag).
And as has often been said; the only thing the different schools of stopping power agree on is; you have to actually hit the target to achieve anything. Carry the most powerful you can hit something with, if you are going with a firearm.

Easiest to read on the page: https://www.corbon.com/corbon/dpx/handgun

Part Number Handgun Caliber Bullet Weight Average Velocity/Energy Barrel Length
DPX3260/20 32 Auto 60gr DPX 1050fps/147ftlbs 2.5

DPX38080/20 380 Auto 80gr DPX 1050fps/196ftlbs 2.5

DPX0995/20 9mm Luger 95gr DPX 1300fps/357ftlbs 3.5

DPX09115/20 9mm Luger +P 115gr DPX 1250fps/399ftlbs 4

DPX38110/20 38 Special+P 110gr DPX 1050fps/269ftlbs 1.875

DPX357125/20 357 Mag 125gr DPX 1300fps/469ftlbs 4
DPX38X125/20 38 Super Auto+P 125gr DPX 1350fps/506ftlbs 5

DPX357SIG125/20 357 Sig 125gr DPX 1350fps/506ftlbs 4

DPX40140/20 40 S&W 140gr DPX 1200fps/448ftlbs 4

DPX10155/20 10mm Auto 155gr DPX 1200fps/496ftlbs 4.6

DPX400CB155/20 400 COR®BON 155gr DPX 1200fps/496ftlbs 4.6

DPX41180/20 41 Rem Mag 180gr DPX 1300fps/676ftlbs 4

DPX44S200/20 44 S&W Special 200gr DPX 950fps/401ftlbs 4

DPX44M225/20 44 Rem Mag 225gr DPX 1350fps/911ftlbs 8.375

DPX45160/20 45 Auto 160gr DPX 1050fps/392ftlbs 3

DPX45185/20 45 Auto+P 185gr DPX 1075fps/475ftlbs 5

DPX45C225/20 45 Colt +P* 225gr DPX 1200fps/720ftlbs 7.25

DPX454250/20 454 Casull 250gr DPX 1650fps/1512ftlbs 7.5

HT460SW275/20 460 S&W Magnum 275gr DPX 1825fps/2034ftlbs 8.375

HT500SW275/12 500 S&W Magnum 275gr DPX 1665fps/1688ftlbs 8.375

HT500SW325/12 500 S&W Magnum 325gr DPX 1800fps/2338ftlbs 8.375
*Not Loaded to SAAMI Specifications. Please see our FAQ.


Edited by quick_joey_small (10/23/18 05:32 PM)

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#290935 - 10/23/18 08:46 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
What kills is penetrating through something vital and causing enough damage. So large and fast would be good.

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#290939 - 10/24/18 01:09 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: quick_joey_small]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: quick_joey_small
The laws of physics are a bit hard to argue with. Here's the foot/pounds handgun calibres produce in Corbon DPX, which the stopping power guru Evan Marshall says 'is simply the best'.
Whether you agree with him or not, you can see that the major calibres of 38 Super Auto + P,.357 mag, .357 sig, 10mm, .40, 45 Auto + P and 400 Corbon, don't actually have that much foot pounds between them.
And the 9mm + P isn't a huge way behind (15% between it and the .357 Mag).
And as has often been said; the only thing the different schools of stopping power agree on is; you have to actually hit the target to achieve anything. Carry the most powerful you can hit something with, if you are going with a firearm.

Easiest to read on the page: https://www.corbon.com/corbon/dpx/handgun

Part Number Handgun Caliber Bullet Weight Average Velocity/Energy Barrel Length
DPX3260/20 32 Auto 60gr DPX 1050fps/147ftlbs 2.5

DPX38080/20 380 Auto 80gr DPX 1050fps/196ftlbs 2.5

DPX0995/20 9mm Luger 95gr DPX 1300fps/357ftlbs 3.5

DPX09115/20 9mm Luger +P 115gr DPX 1250fps/399ftlbs 4

DPX38110/20 38 Special+P 110gr DPX 1050fps/269ftlbs 1.875

DPX357125/20 357 Mag 125gr DPX 1300fps/469ftlbs 4
DPX38X125/20 38 Super Auto+P 125gr DPX 1350fps/506ftlbs 5

DPX357SIG125/20 357 Sig 125gr DPX 1350fps/506ftlbs 4

DPX40140/20 40 S&W 140gr DPX 1200fps/448ftlbs 4

DPX10155/20 10mm Auto 155gr DPX 1200fps/496ftlbs 4.6

DPX400CB155/20 400 COR®BON 155gr DPX 1200fps/496ftlbs 4.6

DPX41180/20 41 Rem Mag 180gr DPX 1300fps/676ftlbs 4

DPX44S200/20 44 S&W Special 200gr DPX 950fps/401ftlbs 4

DPX44M225/20 44 Rem Mag 225gr DPX 1350fps/911ftlbs 8.375

DPX45160/20 45 Auto 160gr DPX 1050fps/392ftlbs 3

DPX45185/20 45 Auto+P 185gr DPX 1075fps/475ftlbs 5

DPX45C225/20 45 Colt +P* 225gr DPX 1200fps/720ftlbs 7.25

DPX454250/20 454 Casull 250gr DPX 1650fps/1512ftlbs 7.5

HT460SW275/20 460 S&W Magnum 275gr DPX 1825fps/2034ftlbs 8.375

HT500SW275/12 500 S&W Magnum 275gr DPX 1665fps/1688ftlbs 8.375

HT500SW325/12 500 S&W Magnum 325gr DPX 1800fps/2338ftlbs 8.375
*Not Loaded to SAAMI Specifications. Please see our FAQ.




Local General Store (Ace Hardware) had bear spray on sale for hunting season for $19.95.

Sportsmans Warehouse has Mossberg 375 Ruger rifles for $339.
---300 gr DGX 2660fps/4700ftlbs

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#290944 - 10/24/18 08:23 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 571
Loc: UK
clearwater:
> Local General Store (Ace Hardware) had bear spray on sale for hunting season for $19.95.

Like I said:
> if you are going with a firearm.

Whether you should be using a firearm is a seperate issue.
I'm just pointing out the differences between calibres seems exaggerated.

qjs

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#290946 - 10/24/18 12:35 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 571
Loc: UK
Montanero wrote:
> What kills is penetrating through something vital and causing > enough damage. So large and fast would be good.

Sounds logical. But you could also say the smaller the bullet, the deeper it is going to penetrate, increasing the chances of hitting something vital.
As I said: the laws of physics are a bit hard to argue with. That much energy is hitting the baddie, whatever shape the bullet is.
And the proof is in the pudding. With the possible exception of the .400 Corbon, all those calibres are used by many police. I'm sure we'd be hearing from officers who were being gunned down while their bullets were not dropping the baddies, if some didn't work.
There doesn't seem to be that much difference in reality.
qjs

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#290949 - 10/24/18 02:33 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
gonewiththewind Offline
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
It is a ratio of velocity and mass, kinetic energy. A small bullet with great velocity can do great damage, but it still needs to hit something vital and do serious damage to it. It is more about bullet placement, marksmanship. Emptying a large caliber handgun at a charging bear may do nothing to stop it, or you may get lucky and 1 bullet may hit a vital spot. If you do not take the time to aim, you are just depending on luck.

All of that said, if you have a large caliber with a very high velocity, it will likely do serious damage no matter where it hits. But it is difficult to carry a 50 caliber machine gun around.

Bullet design can increase the amount of tissue damage caused, and prevent over penetration, though with a bear in the wild over penetration is not a significant concern. If all of the kinetic energy of the bullet is dissipated into the target, that is "stopping power". Most handguns do not possess enough potential kinetic energy to stop a grizzly bear, so you must either scare it away, cause enough pain to discourage an attack, or kill it.

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#290951 - 10/24/18 02:54 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: gonewiththewind]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
"cause enough pain to discourage an attack," - which is what bear spray is intended to accomplish. In actual use, bear spray seems to work pretty well.

Unless I am hunting, I don't bother bringing a firearm into the field - heavy, very specialized, and potentially dangerous if misused. The ballistics data in this thread forces me realize that my trusty 357 Magnum is no longer state of the art...
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#290952 - 10/24/18 03:29 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 571
Loc: UK
I'm sticking to quickjoeysmalls' first rule of gunfighting:

'If you are somewhere you need to carry a gun: leave'.

Nothing is getting me into grizzly territory! :-)

qjs

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#290953 - 10/24/18 06:08 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
I say hike your own hike.

Pepper Spray has worked for many and with prices hitting $20 it would seem cheap for everyone out in predator country to have some. There would be shelf life, quick access, and storage issues (and situations where it wouldn't work) to be mindful of.

Handguns work for many too as noted in the article. No shelf life, work in tents, and in the wind. Can be used with one hand. Expensive and not suitable for every location by law or by certain people.
I have my Boy Scouts carry pepper spray on hikes since we have occasional grizzly, wolf and cougar threats in our part of the state. The spray needs to be out and in the front of the group and carried by many people or you have disaster like the NOLS group in Alaska had. Guns would be unsuitable by Scouting rules, and while some scouts (and leaders) could be responsible enough-----

Rifles have more power but take two hands to use and are hard to manage when doing other activities. The 375 Ruger I mentioned is the inexpensive equal to the old 375 H&H used for African big game. If a big bear needed shooting, that would be a good one.

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#290955 - 10/24/18 06:26 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: gonewiththewind]
AKSAR Offline
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Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Montanero
It is a ratio of velocity and mass, kinetic energy. A small bullet with great velocity can do great damage, but it still needs to hit something vital and do serious damage to it. It is more about bullet placement, marksmanship. Emptying a large caliber handgun at a charging bear may do nothing to stop it, or you may get lucky and 1 bullet may hit a vital spot. If you do not take the time to aim, you are just depending on luck.

All of that said, if you have a large caliber with a very high velocity, it will likely do serious damage no matter where it hits. But it is difficult to carry a 50 caliber machine gun around.

Bullet design can increase the amount of tissue damage caused, and prevent over penetration, though with a bear in the wild over penetration is not a significant concern. If all of the kinetic energy of the bullet is dissipated into the target, that is "stopping power". Most handguns do not possess enough potential kinetic energy to stop a grizzly bear, so you must either scare it away, cause enough pain to discourage an attack, or kill it.
OK...my current choice is to carry spray, and I usually stay out of these bears, guns, and spray discussions. My choice these days is bear spray, and situational awareness. However, for those inclined to carry a firearm in bear country, I will make a couple of comments from an Alaska perspective.

First off, while people have on occaision successfully used smaller caliber handguns (9mm, 45 ACP, etc) for bear defense, the general concensus is still to use the most powerful firearm and load that you can hit with. Likewise, in hunting, people have taken bears with relatively small rifles. However, most opt for a big gun. Years ago, in a hunt, I killed a brown bear with a 338 Win Mag, shooting 250 gr Nosler Partition bullets. That did the job. The 375 H&H Mag is also very popular for bear hunting. Hunting guides occasionally have to go into the pucker brush after a bear wounded by a client. Some guides opt for a 458 Win Mag for that sort of work.

For bear defense, the general consensus is either a big rifle such as above, or a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs. If you choose to carry a handgun, most recommend at least a 44 Mag with a 6 inch barrel.

Regarding ammunition, with big bears, penetration is crucial, and outweighs expansion. The ideal shot for a bear is to hit the shoulder, breaking bones and driving through into the chest cavity. Brown bears have big solid bones. And their thick coat, especially when wet, also impeads the bullet. If you hit the head, note that the bones in bear skulls are very thick, and slope like the front of a tank. Over penetration is never an issue with big bears. Hence for handguns like the 44 Mag, most knowledgable people choose a heavy, hardcast bullet driven as fast as possible. See for example: HSM Bear Ammunition 44 Remington Magnum 305 Grain Lead Wide Flat Nose (just an example, no affiliation).

Bottom line, my personal choice is bear spray. For those inclined to carry a firearm, the best choice is the most powerful gun you can consistently hit with, shooting the most powerful penetrating loads you and the gun can handle.
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#290956 - 10/24/18 06:55 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: quick_joey_small]
hikermor Offline
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I have very limited experience in grizz country - exactly one overnight in Denali NP following three weeks on the big hill. We were in country where grizz had been reported recently and we were very scrupulous in our conduct - cooked at a distance from our tent = stashed food and smelly things also at a distance, stayed together and made noise in thick brush, etc. It was one of the most pleasant camps I have ever made, with magnificent vistas and a gorgeous sunset. We did not carry bear spray. I don't believe it was in common use then (1987).

In grizz country, play by the rules for avoidance. Keep a clean camp and be aware. There are gratifying rewards. And be aware that are plenty of more mundane, commonplace hazards which will get you just as dead.
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#290957 - 10/24/18 09:33 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
GoatMan Offline
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Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 119
I rely more on bear spray than anything else. But I also own a Glock 20 with Buffalo Bore 10mm 210gr (1200fps/703ft.lbs) that I can optionally carry. I figure the spray is the first line of defense. If I have both with me, and have the time, draw both. Deploy the spray and if pursuit continues, unload. But if the bear has had any taste of blood, consider the spray completely ineffective. If it was a defensive attack, either shoot or play dead. If it was a predatory attack, fight back anyway you can.

Interesting read: https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.firearms

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#290958 - 10/24/18 10:14 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Teslinhiker Offline
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Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
How many people actually live in or venture out in bear country and fear enough that carrying the equivalent of a small cannon is required - just in case?

Here where I live, we have the highest concentration of black bears in NA with a population estimate of 120,000 to 160,000. Even on the low end estimate of 120,000, that number is still higher then the low end bear population estimates in the combined states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Colorado. Black bear sightings here, are a very common occurrence. Yet almost all outdoors oriented people are not routinely packing a firearm - and it is not all due to our much more restrictive gun laws. Simply put, it is not about being scared of bears. Instead, it is all about respecting these magnificent animals and being bear aware.

As for Grizzly bears. In the lower 48 of the USA, there are only about 1500 Grizzlies left. So the odds of being attacked are slim to none and it is highly probable that an attack by other wild or domesticated animals has a much better chance of suddenly and unmercifully ending your life.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#290959 - 10/24/18 10:23 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
"As for Grizzly bears. In the lower 48 of the USA, there are only about 1500 Grizzlies left. So the odds of being attacked are slim to none"

While it is true the odds of drowning are slim, the odds go up once you are in a boat.

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#290960 - 10/24/18 11:07 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: Teslinhiker]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
People do get attacked. I worked or years with a fellow NPS employee who was attacked by a grizzlie while on duty - she played dead, but her companion was injured. So it does happen, at least in Alaska.

But problems due to wild critters are not that prominent in the overall hazard profile one faces when going outdoors. Statistically, the Jaguar you drive is more likely to do you harm that the cougars out in the woods, to say nothing of problems created by microbes, falling, weather extremes, and drowning. Those are the things that really pose a problem.

Wild animal encounters make a big splash in the media when they occur, while more common problems are not emphasized, if mentioned at all.

Personally, the only time I have visited an ER for an outdoor injury was the result of a fall while rock climbing - no problems with critters whatsoever.


Edited by hikermor (10/25/18 02:22 AM)
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#290961 - 10/24/18 11:47 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: hikermor]
Teslinhiker Offline
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Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Originally Posted By: hikermor
People do get attacked. I worked or years with a fellow NPS employee who was attacked by a grizzlie while on duty - she played dead, but her companion was injured. So it does happen, at least in Alaska.

But problems due to wild critters are not that prominent in the overall hazard profile one faces when going outdoors. Statistically, the Jaguar you drive is more likely to do you harm that the cougars out in the woods, to say nothing of problems created by microbes, falling, weather extremes, and drowning. Those are the things that really pose a problem.

Wild animal encounters make a big splash in the media when they occur, while more common problems are not emphasized, if mentioned at all.

Personally, the only time I have visited an ER or an outdoor injury was the result of a fall while rock climbing - no problems with critters whatsoever.


That was the point I was making. These bear vs gun vs spray threads here on ETS - which seem to crop up so often, make it seem that the bear is the biggest and baddest threat in the outdoors - which is simply not the case.

Anyway, that is my last words ever on this over debated subject .
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#290962 - 10/25/18 12:22 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: Teslinhiker]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
How many people actually live in or venture out in bear country and fear enough that carrying the equivalent of a small cannon is required - just in case?

Here where I live, we have the highest concentration of black bears in NA with a population estimate of 120,000 to 160,000. Even on the low end estimate of 120,000, that number is still higher then the low end bear population estimates in the combined states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Colorado. Black bear sightings here, are a very common occurrence. Yet almost all outdoors oriented people are not routinely packing a firearm - and it is not all due to our much more restrictive gun laws. Simply put, it is not about being scared of bears. Instead, it is all about respecting these magnificent animals and being bear aware.

As for Grizzly bears. In the lower 48 of the USA, there are only about 1500 Grizzlies left. So the odds of being attacked are slim to none and it is highly probable that an attack by other wild or domesticated animals has a much better chance of suddenly and unmercifully ending your life.
Yes to all the above. As I noted in my previous post, having lived in Alaska for more than 30 years, my personal choice is to carry bear spray. While there is some chance of getting mauled by a bear, it is fairly far down on my list of things to worry about in the out of doors. However some folks, both in the lower 48 and in Alaska seem quite obsessed with bears. Hence the frequent, and often heated threads about spray vs firearms.

To elaborate on your remarks about how common bears are, vs how uncommon attacks are, let me comment on Anchorage. We are a modern city of around 300,000 or so, but the wilderness of the Chugach Range comes litterly to the edge of town. And it is real wilderness, with very few real trails. Last I heard, Fish & Game estimates there are about 60 or so brown/grizzly bears that live in close proximity to the city. I don't recall seeing figures on black bears, but there must easily be many hundreds in and around the town. For folks living in subdivisions on the Hillside, adjacent to Chugach State Park, it is not at all unusual to see both brown and black bears in their neighborhoods. One friend woke up one morning to find a mamma griz and cubs snoozing on his deck outside the sliding glass window.

I live in West Anchorage, well inside of town, on the side away from the wilderness. Yet last summer, my neighbor watched a black bear run across my front yard. The Coastal Trail is a paved trail that leads from downtown, follows the West Anchorage shoreline past some very nice homes, past the airport, and ends at Kincaid Park. The Coastal Trail is extremely popular with bikers, walkers, joggers, and families of all ages. One day last summer, while riding my bike I saw no less than 4 black bears on the trail. I have a photo of 3 of those bears, with a jetliner overhead on final approach to the airport runway. The bears were peacefully munching vegetation. Me and the other folks on the trail just stood and waited, for maybe 5-10 minutes, until the bears wandered off the trail far enough so we could proceed.

So we have of all these bears in and around town. And we have a relatively young population of very active hikers, walkers, trail runners, bird watchers, hunters, fishermen, mountain bikers etc. Yet bear maulings, while they do sometimes occur, are really quite rare. But clearly some folks, here and down south, seem quite paranoid and obsessed about bears, way out of of proportion to their actual odds of getting mauled.

EDIT:
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
That was the point I was making. These bear vs gun vs spray threads here on ETS - which seem to crop up so often, make it seem that the bear is the biggest and baddest threat in the outdoors - which is simply not the case.

Anyway, that is my last words ever on this over debated subject .
Amen Bro, Amen! Also my last comment on the subject.


Edited by AKSAR (10/25/18 12:26 AM)
Edit Reason: added Teslinhikers comment
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
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#290964 - 10/25/18 02:06 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
gonewiththewind Offline
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Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
Do not take my comments as advocacy for a handgun as bear defense. I was merely stating the realities of using a firearm. I would prefer bear spray or a rifle, and some active avoidance strategies.

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#290965 - 10/25/18 03:02 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: gonewiththewind]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
For some people that I have encountered over the years, firearms are a security blanket, protecting them (they think) against the nameless hazards of the wilderness which possibly could include bears and the like. Sometimes the discussion turns political, invoking the second Amendment, etc.

In reality, and this isn't news to most of us on this forum, you are better served in the great outdoors with sufficient water and a good FAK, and all the rest of the fourteen or so Ten Essentials.

But weapons do have their place. I can recall two SAR operations where we were rescuing individuals who were promptly arrested for criminal conduct. At least one of these persons was armed with a concealed handgun. in a third situation, we were helping a person who pretty obviously had mental issues - he suddenly became very agitated by a light burning in the distance and threatened to shoot it out, drawing his rifle from within his pack. In all three of these cases, the actions of an equipped and properly trained deputy(ies) kept the scenes under control.
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#290966 - 10/25/18 08:29 AM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3148
Loc: Big Sky Country
Statistically I suppose bear attacks are rare compared to other things that are likely to harm you outdoors. But it does seem that their frequency is increasing. Due to a total ban on hunting of Grizzlies in the lower 48 it does seem that perhaps they're less afraid of humans that they used to be. Living in Idaho I can also attest that there are more bear attacks or at least aggressive bears than the media portrays. The owner of Buffalo Bore has written that in bear country when confronted by a dangerous bear the natives will simply shoot it and keep quiet, avoiding issues with authorities. Without condemning or condoning this practice I do know that it's true based on conversations with some trusted friends in Idaho and Montana.

Perhaps this topic is overdebated but it's fun! grin Maybe the odds are relatively slim of being confronted by a bear but many would say the same thing about all the other things we prep for. Isn't it prudent to prepare for any risk that you reasonably can prepare for, especially if the preparations aren't that difficult? Bear spray is inexpensive and pretty simple to use. A training can (same stuff but without the pepper part) is fairly cheap and nice to practice with. Bear spray is pretty simple but I feel the $12 spent on the training cannister was money well spent.

As for firearms, I suppose they're broadly controversial and not just in the context of bears. FWIW I'll flatly state that I never go into the woods without a firearm, but then I rarely go anywhere without one (that I am legally able to CCW in, natch). Sadly, two legged predators are probably a bigger danger than bears, at least in the lower 48. Just as it's hard to go anywhere that you won't find a discarded can it's pretty hard to get deep enough into the woods to avoid miscreants and criminals. IMO the general risk might relatively low but the consequences of being unarmed could be quite high. Just as with airbags in my car, the fact that I have not yet needed them does not mean I will disconnect them!
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#290968 - 10/25/18 07:37 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
" But clearly some folks, here and down south, seem quite paranoid and obsessed about bears, way out of of proportion to their actual odds of getting mauled. "

Obsessed? Like how knives are talked about on equipped ad nauseam? I like a good knife (or a good value knife), but rarely hear much here about fire extinguishers or life jackets.

In the Sierra Nevada of CA bear precautions consisted of hanging our food at night and piling up rocks by our pillow to pelt the bears that came sniffing around camp. Big Effing chipmunks we called them. However when by myself I was followed by a bear down Bubb's creek for 5 miles and he wouldn't leave until I got to the trail head, despite tossing rocks at him, it got me thinking I wanted more of a deterrent.

In the Selkirks, they shut areas of the forest down when the Grizzly start getting into campers packs. Most everyone carries some kind of deterrent and bear canisters are required. Just like snowmobilers carry avi gear, being equipped for predators is just part of going out in some places.

Last weekend we heard wolves both at our base camp and at a trailhead several miles away when we started to hike in to retrieve the rest of a deer. Saw bear tracks in the snow a couple of hundred yards away from the carcass too.

One of our group had a wolf pair stair him down and approach him earlier in the month. He was by the side of the road and they followed him to his truck.

This fellow is the uncle of one of our scouts.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/oct/25/after-montana-grizzly-mauling-hayden-man-attacked-/
Getting death threats. He might need some sort of deterrent for the vegans.

Seems lame to call people paranoid.


Edited by clearwater (10/25/18 08:29 PM)

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#290971 - 10/26/18 08:32 PM Re: Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber [Re: clearwater]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Youtube of Bella Coola, BC man using birdshot to stop bear charge charge in his yard this month.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=123&v=o0uM7s8hprc

Reminds me of my mom chasing a bear out of our yard after it chased me and my buddy out of the front yard when I was about 6. Pink bathrobe, hair in curlers. Lolo Pass ranger station. She always said her pastries were so good because she used bear fat.


Edited by clearwater (10/26/18 08:39 PM)

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