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#287693 - 01/09/18 08:52 PM Water Tight Storage Containers
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Mom and I discussed this; I want to hear your recommendations for water-tight storage containers capable of surviving a catastrophic flood. As for size, I want one to protect my blender and four of my dolls (12 1/2" x 14 1/2" x 18" is the total size for those four dolls) from my collection. Mom wants a unit big enough to store photos that she cannot bring with us if we have to bug out. The containers are for our most prized possessions that are too big to take with us.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287698 - 01/09/18 10:35 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6075
Loc: southern Cal
The standard for highly protective, waterproof cases could well be Pelican cases https://www.rei.com/product/504064/pelican-1400-pelicase . These are available in even larger sizes. They are not at all cheap, but are commonly used to house relatively fragile instrumentation of all sorts.

Somewhat cheaper would be dry bags,with a closure that folds over several times and is secured with a plastic buckle. There are several manufacturers of this basic bag, and they are available in many sizes (REI has a good selection, among many retailers). Properly secured, these have kept things dry for me on boat and kayak decks, with no failures. Anything inside that is fragile will require a protective container.

Even cheaper would be something like surplus ammo boxes, which are pretty darn tough in my experience, but they are sold as is, so you might be taking a chance.

Good luck in your search...
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Geezer in Chief

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#287699 - 01/09/18 10:38 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Montanero Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1170
Loc: North Carolina
A Pelican case or other similar product is about all I can think of in that size. They do make some big ones, and they are tough. I can usually find used ones around where I live for MUCH cheaper than new, but with no guarantee that they would be completely water tight (submersible).

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#287700 - 01/10/18 12:13 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2040
Loc: Great Plains
A dry bag would be the most economical option provided that protection from water is the main concern. A bear cannister might work well, too.

Pelican cases are great but expensive. Seahorse cases are very good too and a bit cheaper.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#287701 - 01/10/18 12:50 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Phaedrus]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
A dry bag would be the most economical option provided that protection from water is the main concern.

Need something more than a dry bag. I imagine there will be a lot of movement when flood waters come rushing in. I received a couple of recommendations for Pelican. As for the cost, I may need to do a bit more prioritizing by not concerning myself with the blender.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287702 - 01/10/18 01:16 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2040
Loc: Great Plains
Maybe a dry bag combined with a cooler?
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#287703 - 01/10/18 01:24 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1943
Loc: Colorado
I can't imagine what you're expecting that a dry bag couldn't handle. But if it's that bad, be sure to attach whatever container you wind up with to a completely secure object, so it doesn't float away. So you'll need a container with suitable strong attachment points, locks, cables, etc. Are you wanting to use these items you wish to protect on a semi-regular basis, or are you planning on packing them away and leaving them packed up? That would have bearing on what type of container you choose - you need to consider ease of access if that's a requirement.

Something like this might work if your scenario is pack-and-forget:

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/...-used?a=1009668

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#287704 - 01/10/18 01:46 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
It seems I need the Pelican iM2950. So far the lowest price is $213.39.

http://www.pelican.com/us/en/product/watertight-storm-hard-cases/large-case/travel-case/iM2950/

Or, with rearrangement, the Pelican 1620 for $194.73.

http://www.pelican.com/us/en/product/watertight-protector-hard-cases/large-case/standard/1620/

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287705 - 01/10/18 02:07 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: haertig]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: haertig
I can't imagine what you're expecting that a dry bag couldn't handle. But if it's that bad, be sure to attach whatever container you wind up with to a completely secure object, so it doesn't float away. So you'll need a container with suitable strong attachment points, locks, cables, etc. Are you wanting to use these items you wish to protect on a semi-regular basis, or are you planning on packing them away and leaving them packed up? That would have bearing on what type of container you choose - you need to consider ease of access if that's a requirement.

Here's the plan: During the bug out, pack the car (cars if we do get a new car) with the possibility we may not be able to return home. If allowed to return to get our stuff at some later point, items in watertight containers would be there if they were not washed away, looted or damaged in some other way.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287707 - 01/10/18 02:31 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Montanero Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1170
Loc: North Carolina
I have 2 1620s that I paid $80 each for. They are second hand.

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#287708 - 01/10/18 03:38 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2827
Loc: USA
Ziploc (no affiliation) makes relatively inexpensive storage tubs which they claim are waterproof. I use them for some applications but Pelican cases are going to be far, far more resilient.

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#287709 - 01/10/18 04:14 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: chaosmagnet]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6075
Loc: southern Cal
You can always combine a large dry bad (they come in an enormous range of sizes with an inner, non waterproof rigid container that shields from bumps and scrapes.

I am puzzled...If you can load up a car, why not simply take these items with you? In my recent bug out experience, we made conscious decisions to leave behind some monetarily valuable, but non sentimental items behind (tools, TVs, books [not all], clothing) that could be replaced, and maybe even upgraded. Of course, it all does come down to how much swag you intend to take with you....
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Geezer in Chief

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#287710 - 01/10/18 04:25 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2040
Loc: Great Plains
The Seahorse SE920 is slightly larger than the Pelican 1620 for just over half the price. I have both cases and would rate the quality as very close to equal. Especially given the price difference the Seahorse is well worth considering.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#287713 - 01/10/18 05:12 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Phaedrus]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1943
Loc: Colorado
That Seahorse case doesn't sound like it will meet her needs if she's looking for total immersion protection:

Quote:
Dustproof, Airtight & Watertight Protection (Mil. Std. 810F, 512.4 & IP67). Capable of withstanding water immersion between 15cm and 1 meter for 30 minutes.

Jeanette - Do you have an attic? For what you are planning, leave stuff at home during a bug-out, you could maybe get something like an old non-working refrigerator and bolt it up in your attic rafters for security (on it's back, door side up). Refrigerators are not water tight but might be somewhat water resistant. And if adequately wrapped with a chain and lock, they are pretty secure. You should be able to get a broken one for free somewhere. Then you'd have to charm the neighborhood teenagers into getting it up to the attic for you.

Even those Pelican cases - I'm not so sure they're designed for long duration complete submersion. Before spending all that money on a Pelican - and yes, they ARE good cases - make sure it really meets your needs. I've always considered them more as protection from banging around and dropping, not as mini-submarines. Since you're in Florida, I don't think you live in a canyon where the water could get THAT deep. I looked up the town you list in your profile and it looks like you're close to halfway between the east and west coasts of Florida. If the water gets 10 feet deep there (attic height), then your stuff will probably be toast no matter what you do. I've never been in a hurricane. Does the water get THAT deep that far from the coast???

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#287714 - 01/10/18 06:06 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2040
Loc: Great Plains
The Seahorse is very sturdy- my notion would be to put my stuff in a dry bag and stick that in the hard case. Dry bags are cheap and usually 100% dry but not super sturdy. The hard case should keep the dry bag from being torn.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#287716 - 01/10/18 09:32 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 988
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Multiple inexpensive layers?

My friend used this sort of technique on a grand canyon raft trip.
He brought an expensive violin (we enjoyed the acoustics of the walls).

He stored it in the regular hard violin case, then a trash bag with the top tied closed, then rolled it in his sleeping bag for cushioning, then in a dry bag and tied it in the raft.

We flipped once and daily the raft was full of muddy water. The dry bag held out the water just fine and the violin stayed intact.

----
Trunk/metal gun cabinet/new garbage can/plywood box/cooler(as mentioned earlier) with dry bag combined with trash bags inside?

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#287717 - 01/10/18 12:38 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 481
I've used these, on 5gal. and 7gal. buckets (Lowes, Home Depot), for years with no leaks in heavy rain and several canoe dumps. Haven't submerged for prolonged periods, because they float when loaded with a reasonable weight...camp lanterns & fuel, ammo, paper documents, etc. for me. The bucket handle is pretty sturdy, if you're worried about anchoring these.

If you're truly that worried that water will get in (which frankly I doubt), put the stuff in sealed heavy garbage bags inside the bucket. Protected from crushing impacts, and extra protected from water.

And I don't worry that a burglar is going to steal my stack of buckets along the garage wall: which is really a stack of shelter-in-place supplies (labeled for deception - "old paint"..."potting soil"..."fertilizer"...etc.)

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-1...mp;gclsrc=aw.ds

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#287718 - 01/10/18 12:41 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: hikermor]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: hikermor
I am puzzled...If you can load up a car, why not simply take these items with you?

For most scenarios, Mom and I are bugging in. There is one in which we need to head for the hills. If that happens, America will be so devastated that we need to bring food, water, water purification, a means to cook and so forth. There won't be enough room for larger sentimental items.

We will store some items in water-tight containers on the chance we can return home at some later point to salvage what we can.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287719 - 01/10/18 01:01 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: haertig]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: haertig
Even those Pelican cases - I'm not so sure they're designed for long duration complete submersion. Before spending all that money on a Pelican - and yes, they ARE good cases - make sure it really meets your needs. I've always considered them more as protection from banging around and dropping, not as mini-submarines. Since you're in Florida, I don't think you live in a canyon where the water could get THAT deep. I looked up the town you list in your profile and it looks like you're close to halfway between the east and west coasts of Florida. If the water gets 10 feet deep there (attic height), then your stuff will probably be toast no matter what you do. I've never been in a hurricane. Does the water get THAT deep that far from the coast???

We are not supposed to get into the how and why in this forum so I will make it brief. I study Biblical prophecy and listen to what the modern day prophets are saying. One thing I am learning is that some warnings are conditional. If Event A happens, Event B will happen. Event B is a 400' tsunami that will travel up to 100 miles inland. If that happens, most if not all of Florida will be washed away.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287721 - 01/10/18 02:12 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LesSnyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1482
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
I think I've suggested this before, but if you have not read "Listening to Katrina" you might re think it... a good quality utility trailer was my decision after reading this first hand account of a "do not return" scenario

http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/p/map.html

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#287723 - 01/10/18 02:37 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6075
Loc: southern Cal
I suppose by now that the media is providing you with pictures and accounts of the floods in Montecito just up the road aways. They display the force of moving water, but the devastation generated by a 400 foot tsunami would indeed be Biblical in proportion, far greater than anything experienced recently in Japan or Sumatra. The slate would be wiped clean.
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Geezer in Chief

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#287724 - 01/10/18 02:46 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: LesSnyder]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: LesSnyder
I think I've suggested this before, but if you have not read "Listening to Katrina" you might re think it... a good quality utility trailer was my decision after reading this first hand account of a "do not return" scenario

By the time we get the word, we will already have less than 48 hours to pack the car or cars and drive ten hours to a high elevation. In that time, how do we acquire a trailer even if we get a hitch before then?

The house may be unlivable at this time; why can't we return later to salvage what we can?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287725 - 01/10/18 03:16 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4620
Loc: SOCAL
Yeah, a trailer would not be a last minutes item. It’s something you buy today and get containers to load it efficiently. Problem being you need to store it someplace where you can get it quickly.

Rather than a second car, with long term evacuation in mind, why not get a pick-up (Ford F-150, Chevy Silverado 1500) with a hitch already installed. The truck alone can carry a lot of stuff and it can pull the trailer.

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#287726 - 01/10/18 03:18 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1943
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
The house may be unlivable at this time

After a 400 foot tsunami, the house would indeed be unlivable, if you could even find it. I'm afraid a Pelican case would probably be in Texas by then. I don't think anyone could adequately prep for the kind of disaster you're thinking about.

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#287727 - 01/10/18 04:29 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Russ]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: Russ
Yeah, a trailer would not be a last minutes item. It’s something you buy today and get containers to load it efficiently. Problem being you need to store it someplace where you can get it quickly.

There is no place to store a trailer. We also have to weigh the cost of the preps with the likelihood. If the devastation hits, when will it hit? Is it this year or six years from now? Will something else happen between now and then?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287728 - 01/10/18 04:50 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: haertig]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: haertig
After a 400 foot tsunami, the house would indeed be unlivable, if you could even find it. I'm afraid a Pelican case would probably be in Texas by then. I don't think anyone could adequately prep for the kind of disaster you're thinking about.

It has been said that the tsunami will come a hundred miles inland. We are approximately ninety miles from the coast. Yes, we will get wet. The question is, how devastating will the tsunami be this far inland. And, like other modern houses in Florida, ours is built with cinderblocks.

Even with these factors added in, it is hard to determine how much devastation there will be. Will the house remain on the foundation? Will the roads be destroyed and so full of debris that they would be impassable?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287729 - 01/10/18 05:55 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6075
Loc: southern Cal
Your house would be toast - not even a workable archaeological site.


Very honestly, and speaking from very recent experience, when you leave your residence in an emergency evacuation, take what you wish to preserve and keep, and kiss every thing left behind goodbye.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#287733 - 01/10/18 08:15 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1943
Loc: Colorado
400 foot tsunamis don't just spontaneously appear. Something would have to cause it. And I'm afraid that this "something" would be a planet-ending event. All material preparation is wasted in that case. I'd concentrate on the spiritual preparation.

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#287734 - 01/10/18 08:24 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: haertig]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4620
Loc: SOCAL
Actually, if you look at the Minoan eruption which took what was the island of Thera (Santorini) and turned it into a caldera, that eruption generated a fairly large tsunami. Not a world ending event, but it destroyed the Minoan civilization.

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#287735 - 01/10/18 08:43 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: haertig]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: haertig
400 foot tsunamis don't just spontaneously appear. Something would have to cause it.

You're right. It would take a meteor hitting Mona Island.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287738 - 01/10/18 09:10 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6075
Loc: southern Cal
Extra-terrestrial bodies do collide with Earth from time to time, sometimes with profound consequences. Witness the asteroid impact 65 million years ago that basically killed off the dinosaurs and wiped the slate clean for mammals to take their turn. No idea of how high the waves were, but they were big enough, and that was just the beginning.

We can assert that such events can happen, and probably will happen, given enough time. On the scale of human lifespans, the probabilities of such cataclysmic events is quite low, while the chances of more mundane disasters like fires, floods, earthquakes, winter storms, etc. is much more likely and well worth the time and effort to prepare. It all comes down to the math...

Welcome, Pooh-Bah Jeanette-Isabelle! What a great speech!
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#287740 - 01/11/18 12:15 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1334
Great advice, hikermor! Geezer in chief strikes again!

For comparison, it appears the tsunami resulting from the Krakatoa eruption in 1883 were 40 meters tall (= 131 ft). I'm guessing a 400' tsunami requires not just 3 times as much energy, but an exponentially greater amount. I guess if I were in the path of such a tsunami, I'd just try to take a selfie with the incoming tsunami and post it online before I die.

http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/tsunamis

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#287741 - 01/11/18 12:37 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Bingley]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1943
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Bingley
I guess if I were in the path of such a tsunami, I'd just try to take a selfie with the incoming tsunami and post it online before I die.



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#287742 - 01/11/18 12:46 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Bingley]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1617
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: Bingley
I guess if I were in the path of such a tsunami, I'd just try to take a selfie with the incoming tsunami and post it online before I die.

I would watch out for the warning signs.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#287761 - 01/11/18 09:15 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1325
Those dolls would all fit into a couple of 5 gallon buckets - which are water tight with the right lids.

As for the photos, have them scanned and digitized then keep on a USB key or email them to yourself and perhaps another family member or close friend. If the originals ever get damaged, lost or whatever, you can always print then re-frame when needed.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#287785 - 01/12/18 03:58 AM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: haertig]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 977
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
There is an island in the eastern Atlantic (one of the Canary Islands?) that they think will cause a tsunami if the mountainside collapses. Something about the geology increases the chance. It's been too many years since I watched the show about the island to remember details.

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#287791 - 01/12/18 02:23 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Ren Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 98
Yeah, the island is La Palma, and the Cumbre Vieja volcanic ridge.

Speculation is if it blows the landslide into the ocean would create a mega tsunami, hitting African coast in an hour, UK in 3.5 hours and the eastern USA in 6.

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#287792 - 01/12/18 02:58 PM Re: Water Tight Storage Containers [Re: Ren]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4620
Loc: SOCAL
Thanks. Good read at: ... wiki/Cumbre_Vieja. The mega-Tsunami discussion is toward the bottom. If the Cumbre Vieja ridge fails as per the model, it would not be a good time to be standing on the beach between Key West and Bangor, Maine. However, there are folks who don’t see evidence that it will fail catastrophically and will instead be a slow slide into the sea. It’s worth reading.

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