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#286589 - 10/01/17 11:40 PM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: burth]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4591
Loc: SOCAL
.22LR rifles are fun, but the vast majority of survival is performed with a map & compass — not getting lost. It’s very rare that anyone needs a rifle for survival outside of a war zone.

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#286590 - 10/01/17 11:43 PM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: Russ]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1577
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: Russ
.22LR rifles are fun, but the vast majority of survival is performed with a map & compass — not getting lost. It’s very rare that anyone needs a rifle for survival outside of a war zone.

What if you need to defend your home from zombies?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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#286591 - 10/01/17 11:51 PM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4591
Loc: SOCAL
I saw a cute sign the other day...

I really need a backhoe... wink

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#286596 - 10/02/17 12:59 AM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: burth]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 841
Loc: Southern California
I think you really need to define your stobors before you make claims about what is the best gun for it. A supressed .22 SBR might be a good gun for a downed military aviator skulking around in hostile territory. But, it's a marginal gun for a backpacker, or canoeist (ultra light .22 rifle or a long barreled .22 pistol). And, completely unsuitable for anybody who might have to deal with large predators or has a generous weight budget (river rafters, bush pilots, etc.) are better outfitted with a shotgun or large caliber rifle.
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#286601 - 10/02/17 04:55 PM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: Mark_R]
M_a_x Online   happy
Old Hand

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 934
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Mark_R
I think you really need to define your stobors before you make claims about what is the best gun for it.


I totally agree on that one. I would like to add that local laws also play a role. Where I live, I would have a hard time to legally aquire and own a takedown semiauto .22lr with useful magazine capacity. A suppresor would add to the difficulties.
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If it isn´t broken, it doesn´t have enough features yet.

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#286602 - 10/02/17 05:58 PM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: burth]
LesSnyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1470
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
just a comment... a muzzle loader is not a very effective delivery system if you have a supply of propellant, projectiles, and caps... a simple Lyman tong tool makes a much more weather resistant metallic cartridge that is quicker to re charge your firearm provided you have the same amount of pre stored supplies... lead projectiles can be cast into SWC bullets as easily as round balls...smokeless propellants are much more efficient than black or Pyrodex type propellants, and less volume can be used

I'm not a fan of 12 ga shotgun for the same reason.. excessively heavy cartridges for any foraging type scenario, excepting slugs use against large or dangerous wildlife... likewise for home protection... with extended magazines, excessively nose heavy, and awkward to negotiate in tight places.... I've shot a lot of house clearing stages with a 21" Benelli...Uncle Joe B. hasn't shot much

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#286604 - 10/02/17 07:26 PM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: burth]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2793
Loc: USA
For home defense, a shotgun can be very effective from a static position, where your loved ones (if any) are all behind you and you're holding a hallway, stairwell or other area while waiting for the police. I agree that long arms in general are very challenging for any sort of indoor movement, especially where you must juggle a light (so that you don't muzzle anyone you shouldn't by searching with your weapon-mounted light) and closed doors.

My biggest problem with muzzleloaders are the speed of any required followup shots. I don't see any way that they're better than more modern types of firearms, for my uses.

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#286605 - 10/02/17 08:53 PM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: burth]
Montanero Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1127
Loc: North Carolina
While the caliber and type of weapon is important to consider, what is more important, indeed critical, is can you use it effectively. If you are proficient with a muzzle loader, and have the supplies, it can be effective. Know the capabilities and limitations of your chosen firearm, and develop your skills.

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#286608 - 10/03/17 07:38 AM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: burth]
Phaedrus Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2002
Loc: Great Plains
Weapons for survival can be a tricky thing to address. What kind of survival? The culture and focus of ETS is generally based on wilderness survival and surviving events that can strike in daily life. So this might mean a plane crash in the North woods, a capsized canoe with most gear lost, etc but it could also mean a large earthquake, a tornado or a hurricane. Generally this site doesn't really "do" EOTWAWKI discussions so weapons for apocalypse isn't a thing we address much. I suppose crimes like home invasions are a thing that, sadly, we potentially face in modern life although this might not be the ideal venue for those kinds of discussions.

In a wilderness survival situation a firearm normally isn't the most important thing to have but when you do need a gun you might need it badly! If I was doing a backpacking trip to a remote location in Montana, Colorado, etc I would absolutely want a firearm or two along.

While I'm not a rabid shotgun guy I think they're very versatile and effective firearms. A 12 ga pump with a 3.5" chamber can take any animal from pheasants and doves to geese and turkeys, and by changing loads it's suitable within 100 yards for moose, elk and the largest bears. True, in a wilderness setting the ammo is bulky and expensive. An over/under with a rifle barrel on to of a 12 ga barrel makes a useful woods gun.

I think that too much is made of length for home defense. Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch has a nice video illustrating the fact that the distance from the end of the barrel is about the same for a shotgun on the shoulder and sidearm fully extended out in an isosceles stance. A sidearm is a bit more maneuverable but training with a long gun can mitigate a lot of issues. Moreover there's no arguing with the fact that long guns pack a lot more punch. No gun is a 'death ray' but one round of 12 ga 00 Buckshot is likely to be more effective than one round of 115gr 9mm ammo. Long guns are also a lot easier to hit with, especially under stress.

If we're not concerned with defense against large predators (four legged or two legged) than a .22 rifle could be an excellent survival gun. You can easily carry a fairly large amount of ammo without a lot of weight or bulk. It's superb for small game and used skillfully can take large game as well.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

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#286609 - 10/03/17 11:39 AM Re: why a muzzleloader or shotgun for survival? [Re: Phaedrus]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 1577
Loc: Ocala, FL
Originally Posted By: Phaedrus
Generally this site doesn't really "do" EOTWAWKI discussions so weapons for apocalypse isn't a thing we address much.

Why don't prepare for brimstone hits the fan scenarios? Are we complacent in thinking things will never get that bad in the United States?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
"A grain of wheat must fall to the ground before it can do any good. New life springs from fallen grain." -- Fleda Claes Johansson

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