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#285022 - 07/17/17 02:25 PM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: Herman30]
NAro Offline

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 484
Originally Posted By: Herman30
the employees were not allowed to leave the building?

I agree with Montanero and Chaosmagnet. Do what YOU think is prudent. I have absolutely no faith such instructions have any basis in knowledge or fact in the moment... whether it be for fire or active shooter, you may be hearing the standard instruction (crafted by the legal department). And Herman's language suggests the problem: "were not ALLOWED..." I'm a grown up. No one "allows" me. I make up my own mind.

Edited by NAro (07/17/17 02:26 PM)

#285024 - 07/18/17 01:34 AM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: quick_joey_small]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2822
Yea, all the staff was asking why they weren't being evacuated when they could see all the people down in the street and hear about tall buildings being evacuated on the news.

Afterward they found out that the lawyers quietly were told to leave then the staff was finally released. So yes we decided to ask for forgiveness rather than permission next time.

I also couldn't call her and she couldn't call me either, all the phone lines were busy. We were able to get e-mail back and forth slowly. We kept each other up on the news as much as we could, I'd send a message asking if they were going to evacuate since other cities were evacuating tall buildings and she would respond that everyone was asking up the chain if they were. No one really said "no you can't leave" it was more of a "are we going to evacuate", "well I don't know, I'll ask" and repeat up through the management chain.

So when she was finally able to leave I had her start walking on the south side of the main street heading east toward our house and I'd circle around and pick her up. Parking was terrible so we'd drive down to her office and drop he off then I'd drive to work everyday.

On that day there might as well not been any traffic laws, no one was obeying them, running red lights, turning wherever, etc. There were a couple parking lots where one would give the attendant keys and $ and they park for you, well it seems those lots were only staffed at the beginning and end of business hours but not in between, either that or their attendants had already left. People would break into the booth to get their keys. I saw one guy get in one car and reverse it up over the curb and onto the sidewalk then get out leaving the engine running and door open and then get in his car and leave. Those lots would stack so deep that he had to move someone else car first to get his out and he just left the other person's car like that.

We made other changes that day such as upgrading cell phones to ones that could text for times when the lines were too busy.

#285028 - 07/18/17 11:12 AM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: Eugene]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6435
Loc: southern Cal
Whatever happened to "women and children first"? Perhaps, maybe, "Children = lawyers" ?

I would not care to work for an outfit like that.....
Geezer in Chief

#285060 - 07/22/17 01:41 AM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: chaosmagnet]
DesertFox Offline

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 339
Loc: New York, NY
Unless the problem is a dirty bomb outside, the best move is to GET OUT>

#285061 - 07/22/17 03:31 AM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: quick_joey_small]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2675
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Hm! Well, no size fits all. In an earthquake in a modern building in a jurisdiction with good codes, especially downtown, I'm overcoming my instinct and staying in. When all that glass and debris comes off those skyscrapers, outside = slice-and-dice.

#285088 - 07/23/17 08:15 PM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: quick_joey_small]
Treeseeker Offline

Registered: 03/29/12
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Many years ago, my wife and I were in a department store when the power went out. Uniformed security guards immediately locked all the outside doors (which were all glass).

When we got to the door and saw what was happening, I walked up the to guard and said, "Open the door we want to leave." He said, "Not till the power comes back on." So I replied, "Let me see, you are holding us against our will, that sounds like kidnapping to me." He didn't reply but I could see he was getting nervous. So I said, "Let me put it this way, either you open the door or I am going throw this chair through it so we all can leave." He immediately opened the door.

#285155 - 07/27/17 03:20 AM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: quick_joey_small]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2675
Loc: Alberta, Canada
The OP is enormously useful, and the diversion into "you can't keep me in!" shouldn't sideline us from the core premise: There isn't just "fight-or-flight" in our mostly-hard-wired response inventory: it's "fight-or-flight-or-freeze."

It's worth thinking about how to a) not freeze except on purpose, and b) how to assist people who freeze into a more survivable situation.

This is something that emergency responders must face, with people in high-stress situations "locking up." This is not new; they are surely trained how to handle this. How do you recognize "freeze-up" and how do you respond?

#285159 - 07/27/17 01:14 PM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: dougwalkabout]
hikermor Online   content
Geezer in Chief

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6435
Loc: southern Cal
"How do you recognize "freeze-up" and how do you respond?"

In the typical mountain rescue situation with which I am familiar, this is not usually a big issue. But if someone is not functioning, a suggestion of useful activity usually works (many hands make light work on a hauling system...) You must consider that the person may be drunk or on drugs or incapacitated in some other manner.
Geezer in Chief

#285161 - 07/27/17 02:17 PM Re: What NOT to do in a disaster [Re: quick_joey_small]
Montanero Online   content

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1332
Loc: North Carolina
Sometimes a shock is necessary to even get their attention if they are frozen out of terror. When it is bad it lasts a while and the person can just shut down because they feel overwhelmed and unable to deal with the stressor at all.

Getting them to help with something less stressful is a good way to gradually bring them out of it. When they are communicative you can help show them how they can act in incremental ways to deal with the stressor. Help them overcome the feeling of helplessness.

It can be as simple as when someone sees something happening, they freeze up and do not attempt any action to prevent the incident. This is usually temporary and they will move to help almost immediately after.

The classic example is a soldier's first experience in actual combat; when they are directly under fire for the first time. You never know how they will react. Training can prevent the freeze and provide an instinctive reaction that will carry them through (such as charging an ambush), until they see that they can deal with it, and then they are fine. Some never get over that first experience and will lock up, hunker down and can't function.

Stress inoculation in training helps to prevent this. This is why military training is, and should be, stressful. If you can't handle someone in your face yelling at you how will you handle someone shooting at you? Things like rappelling, mountain climbing, parachuting, and other things a normal person would have trouble doing, all can help to build up the resistance to stress. The learning to respond to orders and practicing physical actions in response to certain stimuli, such as immediate action drills, helps a great deal.

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