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#281975 - 09/02/16 03:41 AM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: chaosmagnet]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1397
I can't imagine this is so hard to figure out. Just walk away. The point is to avoid prison. You don't need to find someone to refuse the firearm to in order to avoid prison.

In the past when my flight got diverted, there were occasions when an airline employee handed me my bags personally.

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#281976 - 09/02/16 04:14 AM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: chaosmagnet]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3135
Loc: USA
There have been cases similar to this that ended badly, or at least with a great deal of expense. My advice is to not fly with checked firearms if it's possible for your flight to be diverted to LGA, JFK or EWR. I'm not aware of other airports in the USA that I would apply this advice to.

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#281980 - 09/02/16 05:30 PM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: haertig]
ATN Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 46
Originally Posted By: haertig
Originally Posted By: Bingley
According to a class taught by an attorney on such matters, refuse to accept the firearm. Tell the airline it's their responsibility.

How do you do that? There's no special handling of firearms after you declare and check them. There are no markings on the outside of your luggage telling what they contain. It's totally stealth after your initial declare, special screening and hand-over. After that part, your bags are re-mixed in with everybody elses luggage. Your bags fulls of guns just roll out on the baggage delivery carousels like every other piece of luggage. That's why you move from your plane to baggage pick-up ASAP, so you can be there right when yours comes out so nobody else can grab it first. There's nobody to refuse to.

You'd think an attorney teaching a class on such matters would at least know how the process works. But apparently not.


I suspect most problems with checked firearms in cases where a plane is diverted occurs when the person attempts to recheck the baggage.

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#281983 - 09/02/16 11:24 PM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: Bingley]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2077
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Bingley
I can't imagine this is so hard to figure out. Just walk away. The point is to avoid prison.

And you think abandoning a firearm, unattended, in New Jersey, is going to keep you out of prison??? I dare say the luggage will be traced right back to you. Remember, you declared the firearm and filled out paperwork when you checked it, and there is a sticker placed on the lockbox (inside the luggage, but not visible from outside) that has your name and info on it.

I don't think "just walk away" is such a good plan, even if you were willing to give up your expensive firearms and take the financial hit.

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#282056 - 09/06/16 07:41 PM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: chaosmagnet]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3135
Loc: USA
I am back from NYC. I ended up buying a Spyderco Grasshopper from their "Slipit" line. It's a very small non-locking knife. While it has the Spydie Hole it cannot be opened one handed no matter how hard one tries; even if I turned out to be wrong about that it's still NYC legal when kept in a pocket.

The one interaction with NYPD was brief and professional. They came swiftly when I called 911 to report an emotionally disturbed person harassing and scaring people in my mother's neighborhood; after asking me what the EDP had done I was on my way. They were, a family member who has reason to know explained, waiting for a Sergeant with a Taser (in case gentler methods failed) before trying to get him some help.

The knife came with a wicked edge from the factory and was used almost constantly during the brief trip. For small cutting jobs it works admirably. I'm glad I bought it.

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#282057 - 09/06/16 08:10 PM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: haertig]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1397
Responding to haertig, I think you should consult an attorney in NJ. For us non-attorneys, we can have a bit of fun, and none of it should count as legal advice. Let me ask you: is there a law that will put you in jail in that situation? You never took possession of the firearm. Since you've declared your firearm, the airline knowingly brought a firearm to New Jersey -- against your will, even! (I seem to recall this would be sort of a gray area.)

What I remember from the course agrees with another poster who says the problem occurs when you try to recheck the bag. That's when they get you for illegally possessing and carrying in the State of New Jersey. That's the law that people violate in this situation.

Also, how does the airline handle unclaimed bags on a diverted flight? Perhaps they will just ship them to the destination. Some years ago I did just that. My flight was diverted because of bad weather. I failed to pick up my bag (no guns or anything funny) because I either missed an announcement or the announcement was never made. By the time I figured it out and went to claim the bag, they said they locked the unclaimed ones away. Anyway, I wasn't the only passenger who didn't get his/her bag -- there was a poor woman screaming that she was on a job interview trip, and she needed this or that from her bag. I flew to my original destination the next day, and my bag was waiting for me there.

I'm not say that's what will happen to you in the hypothetical New Jersey situation. But it's just another thing to keep in mind.

Again, I am not an attorney. I just post online for entertainment purposes only. You're better off with a psychic for legal advice.

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#282063 - 09/07/16 12:17 AM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: Bingley]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2077
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Bingley
Responding to haertig, I think you should consult an attorney in NJ.

I was speaking more-or-less theoretically. I wouldn't fly to NJ with a firearm (wouldn't go there, period). And by association, any state remotely close to it (you might get diverted to NJ!) I have flown with firearms to Texas, which is totally a safe zone. And into Nashville, which should be safe ... unlikely that you'd be diverted to an unsafe zone as far away from Nashville as Chicago or Washington, D.C.

For the most part, if you steer well clear of NJ (the entire state), NY City, CA (the entire state), Chicago and Washington, D.C. you should be fine even if reasonably diverted. I think Hawaii might be in there also, which is a terrible shame. Better to just avoid a multi-state zone around these places than to take chances accidentally ending up in one and risking prison for normal everyday activities done elsewhere. It's a shame that these places have effectively black-listed entire zones of the US for travel, but they have. They're all pretty much collapsing in on themselves (except Hawaii), so maybe, someday, I'll be able to travel to the black-listed zones after they finish collapsing.

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#282064 - 09/07/16 02:14 AM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: chaosmagnet]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 853
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
I am back from NYC. I ended up buying a Spyderco Grasshopper from their "Slipit" line. It's a very small non-locking knife. While it has the Spydie Hole it cannot be opened one handed no matter how hard one tries; even if I turned out to be wrong about that it's still NYC legal when kept in a pocket.

The knife came with a wicked edge from the factory and was used almost constantly during the brief trip. For small cutting jobs it works admirably. I'm glad I bought it.


I've found that for urban use, a small, razor sharp blade is an excellent match. There's a reason yesteryear's pen knives all had ~2" blades.
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

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#282066 - 09/07/16 12:48 PM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: haertig]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3135
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: haertig
For the most part, if you steer well clear of NJ (the entire state), NY City, CA (the entire state), Chicago and Washington, D.C. you should be fine even if reasonably diverted.


I'm aware of prosecutions at NYC-area airports (JFK, LGA and EWR) of travelers with checked firearms whose flights were diverted. I'm not aware of anything like that in the other locations you mention.

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#282073 - 09/08/16 12:06 AM Re: NYC Knife Law Question [Re: chaosmagnet]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2077
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
I'm aware of prosecutions at NYC-area airports (JFK, LGA and EWR) of travelers with checked firearms whose flights were diverted. I'm not aware of anything like that in the other locations you mention.

That's why you need to check the laws before going near a place. Just because we haven't seen a newspaper article about someone getting in trouble doesn't mean it's safe.

Here are a few examples:

Washington, D.C.: "A valid registration certificate is required for possession or transfer of any firearm." "Illegal to possess or acquire magazines of more than 10 round capacity." Thus, an airport in D.C. is one of the last places I'd want to be diverted to while legally transporting a firearm from safe place A to safe place B.

U.S. Virgin Islands: "A permit is required to possess, transport, or carry a firearm". There aren't too many safe destinations that you could be headed to where you might get diverted to the Virgin Islands though.

Illinois: "State-issued FOID required to possess any firearm."

Hawaii: "All firearms must be registered with local law enforcement within five days of purchase or 72 hours of import into the state, whether or not they are serviceable or not." So I was wrong about Hawaii, it's OK to be diverted there as long as your diversion is shorter than 72 hours. Hawaii is not a place you'd likely be diverted to anyway, it's kind of all by itself out there.

New York, New Jersey: You said you were already familiar with their prosecutions, so I won't quote any laws for them. But they're very bad.

Basically, any place that requires a license to own firearms, registration of firearms, or an FOID ("Firearms Owner Identification Card") is a potential Hell Hole you wouldn't want to accidentally end up in.

References:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-sho...state-breakdown

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/gov_gun_law_per-government-gun-laws-permits

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