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#279114 - 01/28/16 04:19 AM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Alex]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Alex
A small device like that will be safe in just a couple of wraps of aluminum foil.

Wrap it in aluminum foil? You've got to be kidding. That sounds like something one would read on the internet. Mu-metal or a faraday cage maybe, but aluminum foil? And little things are not less susceptible to EMP than big things. Physical size does not come into play.

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who needs a smartphone now when there is no service, internet, or power?

There is truth to that. Smartphones are smart because they access the internet. Without internet connectivity, they're mostly dumb. The tablet that this thread is about - it says it can predict the weather. Now how is it going to do that without internet connectivity? Is it loaded with barometric sensors, thermometers, humidity gauges, anemometers, ...?

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Regarding the general usefulness of a smartphone - it is equal to saying that books will be useless after the SHTF.

I totally disagree with that. The only thing a smartphone has going for it over printed books is that it can hold a whole lot more information in a smaller package. And that's great - while your charger keeps charging, while your batteries don't give out from being recharged too many times, while you don't fall into a creek with it in your pocket, while you don't drop it and break it's screen. I see it as a reasonable supplement for books, but certainly not a replacement for them.

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But even primitive children games on it are something precious already at TEOTWAWKI.

If I had all that important stuff on it, I sure wouldn't be handing it out to kids to play games on.

I view a tablet/smartphone for survival kind of like a Bic butane lighter. Great, and super easy to start fires with - when it works. But I'd prefer a ferro rod as the thing I really depend on, with the Bic lighter being the quick-n-easy solution (while it still works).

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#279116 - 01/28/16 07:45 AM Re: Survival tablet [Re: haertig]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
Yes, contrary to the american funny folklore around tinfoil hats, a tin (or aluminum) foil neat wrapping around your phone (preferably with a layer of cardboard or other isolator underneath to guarantee a nonconductive gap) will definitely save your phone from a typical EMP attack threat. Two perpendicularly wound layers are better against human errors. But if it will not - most likely you brain electricity wouldn't survive either to use it afterwards anyway smile Mu-metal? It's for the scientific equipment isolation from slightest magnetic fields during precise electromagnetic measurements/experiments. Yes it will work for EMP protection as well, but not much better than an aluminum foil. In fact, all you really need to protect your equipment from EMP is a low electrical resistance conductor, looped on itself. That's all what elementary physics require. The popular among preppers garbage can is actually inferior to aluminum foil wrap, as it's made of a much less conductive steel and zink. The best option would be a silver foil. However, a garbage can is more convenient for fast tossing the stuff in as well as for a long term storage if done right (aluminum tape sealed lid gap).

The physical size plays the major role here, as the more the surface the higher gain of the resulting antenna for "EMP signal reception". For example, the Solar Flare produces very similar to the EMP threat, but it will affect severely only large power grids, not cars or smartphones - exactly because of the size of an antenna the grid resembles. Also, the smaller size is easier to protect, as you need a smaller (thus easier to improvise) faraday cage.

Smartphones are smart, because they can be used in a smart way. For example, I have a 22Gb sized website, with thousands of survival books and papers indexed, directly mirrored to my smartphone storage, so even without the internet connection I can browse it on the phone as a regular website. Same for the street level maps of the entire US, Canada, and Mexico - all offline... Paper maps? I don't aware of a truck which can load so much paper at once. Also I have around 300 apps installed, many of them have survival use even if just for fighting the boredom. Leaving the weight of books aside they are prone to moisture, mold, insects, and fire. Also they have a value even for dumbest looters for their paper (cigarettes, kindling, toilet paper, wrapping goods). Besides, it's easier to protect a 128Gb T-flash card with millions of pages on it than even smallest 100 page book - just swallow it smile

Yes, even my 4 years old Android smartphone has a real barometer, thermometer, and humidity sensor. That predicts severe weather changes quite reliably as soon as you have calibrated the local pressure range:



Anemometer is harder to implement in a pocket device, but I saw them as a standalone pocket devices (not that crucial for a local spot weather forecasting, more like for its propagation in the region).

Don't need biometric sensors on you? What about assessing and monitoring your unconscious buddy condition?

Regarding the recharging. I've started with Palm OS handheld (1999). In the past November I unboxed my Palm VIIx, installed two AAAs, booted it, and restored from backup flash "disk" - it works flawlessly. I have Sony TH55 riding in my astronomy bag all this time as a spare star chart (includes plenty of survival stuff as well). It's 11 years old Palm OS wonder. Charging it and restoring from backup every 6 month. The integrated LiPO battery still holds the charge for just a little above an hour of WiFi, but it works indefinitely when connected to my 8Ah powerbank with USB cable connected. I'm sure that modern batteries will continue to be usable for at least the same period of time (I have 2 spares, one is EDC, another is recharged to 60% every 6 month). The external power option will work even if the battery charging MOSFET will ever die (I have the external battery charger as well).

Mechanical issues: as I've said, with the proper phone case the fall into a creek will have no effect on the phone at all. The phone casing, which I've already mentioned (Otterbox defender), withstood falling from about 5 feet height to a concrete twice without any consequences, and that's not a small phone, but a 5.5" screen phablet. In fact, I'm protecting it probably even better than my own ribs when in the field (both times I dropped it at home). I do see it as the best replacement possible for books in a SHTF situation.

Kids can be a pain if not entertained. But modern phones are sturdy enough to withstand any abuse by a typical child. Surely if you refrain from offering it as a soccer ball substitute. The valuable data is easily protected by using the multi-user profile feature (on Android, iPhone is an epic fail for almost any of the above), which has the special "kids mode". Besides, not only kids need some entertainment time, I have a huge scifi library on my phone, as well as Monopoly, Chess, Holdem, and other table-like multiplayer and single player games for every age.

The bic lighter is an irrelevant comparison, it's more like a zippo lighter (by the way, it's a great hand warmer if you have some heavy app to release the good heat from the silicone smile ). But I see my smartphone more like an extremely knowledgeable and resourceful buddy (it can even speak and talk to you, you know?). Add this and your phone can get "legs" and "hands".

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#279118 - 01/28/16 02:23 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Alex]
chaosmagnet Online   content
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
While I can keep it charged, my tablet has significant capability to be helpful in emergencies:
  • GPS and maps, both "live" connected to the Internet and offline. If GPS is down the maps still work and in some respects are easier to use than paper maps. The onboard compass also works well.
  • Reference material, including bushcraft, medical, and a lot more.
  • Copies of important documents.
  • Books and games for entertainment.
  • If the mobile or wireless Internet service is working, information and communication.


I could keep it running for at least a month if the power was out for that long, even on the move. In a true TEOTWAKI situation it would be challenging to keep it charged over a longer period of time, to be sure, but if I were prepping for that I'd leave the suburbs and be building or buying a rural off-grid home.

In other words, there's truth on both sides of the argument. Yes, tablets are more fragile than paper, need to be charged, and have less utility when the Internet is down. They may fail during an EMP, depending on source, strength, and so on. But they don't have to be worthless in an emergency, either.

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#279120 - 01/28/16 03:39 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Alex]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Hmm, I suspect some of us have widely differing notions of 'SHTF'. I'm not sure kids freaking out due to a lack of entertainment is quite a valid SHTF situation. crazy

In my view, a true SHTF situation would involve something like a large-scale natural disaster, war, major civil disturbance or some other situation posing an immediate existential threat.

Smartphones and tablets are useful in everyday life, and no doubt also in some emergency situations. But I don't think the vast majority of current consumer-grade electronics is robust, reliable and foolproof enough for serious field and/or emergency use.

If you really need a computer on the go, a professional ruggedized laptop will offer far more reliability, computing power and battery life than some tablet gizmo.

Smartphones, well - they are no doubt fun toys to play with but an inadequate susbtitute for a proper computer. Lots of functions and useful and useless Android apps, but which ones are truly essential? As in - essential to keep you alive?

As far as basic communication, your smartphone is dependent entirely on the phone network. How long do you think that is going to be available in a serious emergency? Radio would seem to be a much more reliable option in that regard.

GPS... I would take my old Garmin eTrex any day over the latest smartphone. A), because I know it works under highly adverse conditions whereas all my cellphones so far have tended to crash, perform bizarrely or die unexpectedly. And B), battery life (on a couple of easily replaceable, rechargeable AA's) is far better.

Either way, GPS is NO substitute for a compass and digital maps CANNOT replace paper maps. That may sound old fashioned, but it's the hard, simple truth. Ignore it at your own peril. Do keep in mind though that experience is a hard teacher and there's no reset button in real life.

For emergency data storage a separate portable hard disk or USB drive strikes me as a safer alternative to keeping all your stuff aboard that smartphone. Remember that adage about putting all eggs in one basket?

I seriously doubt wrapping your smartphone in aluminum foil will make any difference in the event of an actual EMP. As far as EMP though, if that is your main concern - it would imply the use of nuclear weapons. In the event of a nuclear war I'm pretty sure smartphones, tablets and Playstation (to keep the kids happy) are going to be very low on most folks' priority list.

All in all, Haertig and Hikermor have made some excellent points earlier. As much as I love electronics and modern gadgets, when it comes to emergency preparedness - the simpler, the better. Anything relying on electricity and/or network connection is going to take some effort to keep running in a real emergency. Effort that might be better spent elsewhere for some more "essential" purpose.

Frankly, I don't believe electronic devices are anywhere near as indispensable to our well-being as we tend to assume. 20 years ago a whole lot of people didn't even own a computer and cellphones were pretty much sci-fi but we managed to get by just fine. And so did countless generations before the discovery of electricity.

YMMV. smile

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#279121 - 01/28/16 04:18 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Tom_L]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Interesting discussion. Besides the phone, browser and email apps, most of the apps on my iPhone work off-line. The map works and the GPS will plot your position without cell or wifi connectivity.

The latest smartphones come with quad and octa-core processors and have a lot of processing power. Choose your apps well and it can be a valuable tool. Indispensable? Probably not, but still valuable. All it takes is a compatible solar system and it can provide for lots of use. I have a case around mine that does a good job protecting it from accidental drops onto concrete.

As always, YMMV.

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#279122 - 01/28/16 04:19 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Tom_L]
chaosmagnet Online   content
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
Hmm, I suspect some of us have widely differing notions of 'SHTF'. I'm not sure kids freaking out due to a lack of entertainment is quite a valid SHTF situation. crazy

Keeping kids calm in a bug-in or shelter situation has a huge impact on them and on the morale of others. I've seen this first-hand when my CERT operated a shelter during a large-scale natural disaster, so I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here.

Quote:
Smartphones and tablets are useful in everyday life, and no doubt also in some emergency situations. But I don't think the vast majority of current consumer-grade electronics is robust, reliable and foolproof enough for serious field and/or emergency use.

Having used my tablet to good effect as an incident commander in a couple of small-scale CERT callouts, my experience has been different.

Quote:
If you really need a computer on the go, a professional ruggedized laptop will offer far more reliability, computing power and battery life than some tablet gizmo.

Modern professional ruggedized laptops have better computing power than modern tablets, but dramatically worse battery life. I've seen too many of the ruggedized laptops as an IT professional to believe that they have more reliability in general, although certainly there are individual counter-examples.

It's far more challenging to keep a laptop charged in the field.

There are many things that laptops do better than a tablet, but there's surprisingly little that a laptop can do that my tablet cannot do to some degree. Sometimes, not always, that's enough.

Quote:
Smartphones, well - they are no doubt fun toys to play with but an inadequate susbtitute for a proper computer. Lots of functions and useful and useless Android apps, but which ones are truly essential? As in - essential to keep you alive?

Making phone calls and sending text messages comes immediately to mind. This has saved lives in many disasters.

In the CERT context, sometimes portability and battery life means more than computing capacity. For example, we train to text photos from the field to the incident commander when that sort of intelligence is worthwhile. If the mobile networks are down, it still may make sense to bring photos back to incident command depending on the circumstances.

Quote:
As far as basic communication, your smartphone is dependent entirely on the phone network. How long do you think that is going to be available in a serious emergency? Radio would seem to be a much more reliable option in that regard.

We use handheld radios, both FRS and ham, for tactical communications. In our area, we have access to a very good amateur radio repeater that has long-term emergency power available.

However there are many tasks for which handheld radios are either inefficient or outright improper. Maybe things are different where you live, but the mobile networks have proven to be more reliable in power outages and disasters than the landline carriers where I live.

Quote:
GPS... I would take my old Garmin eTrex any day over the latest smartphone. A), because I know it works under highly adverse conditions whereas all my cellphones so far have tended to crash, perform bizarrely or die unexpectedly. And B), battery life (on a couple of easily replaceable, rechargeable AA's) is far better.

Good points (although I don't have the problems with my smartphone that you have experienced). But smartphones are ubiquitous, and dedicated GPS receivers aren't.

Quote:
Either way, GPS is NO substitute for a compass and digital maps CANNOT replace paper maps. That may sound old fashioned, but it's the hard, simple truth. Ignore it at your own peril. Do keep in mind though that experience is a hard teacher and there's no reset button in real life.

I don't disagree -- every member of my CERT is issued large-scale maps of the community we serve. As a supplement to compasses and paper maps, GPS can make things a lot faster when time matters. I've seen that in the field.

Quote:
For emergency data storage a separate portable hard disk or USB drive strikes me as a safer alternative to keeping all your stuff aboard that smartphone. Remember that adage about putting all eggs in one basket?

How would you show a photo of your passport or other document to an official if all you were carrying was a thumb drive?

There are pros and cons to both approaches.

Quote:
I seriously doubt wrapping your smartphone in aluminum foil will make any difference in the event of an actual EMP.

Aluminum foil, used properly, makes for excellent and inexpensive Faraday Cage material. Don't, however, use it without cardboard or some other insulator between the conductive material and the devices you're trying to protect.

Quote:
As far as EMP though, if that is your main concern - it would imply the use of nuclear weapons.

Or a solar flare.

Smartphones and tablets are analogous a multitool. A dedicated knife is better for cutting tasks, dedicated screwdrivers are better for repairs, and so on. But like a multitool, these devices may allow for a lot of capability in a light and compact package. Are they right for every circumstance? Of course not.

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#279125 - 01/28/16 05:17 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Tom_L]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
Hmm, I suspect some of us have widely differing notions of 'SHTF'.

I'm sure that is the root of many of the differences of opinion here.

I am thinking of SHTF as in the book "One Second After". Where lack of food is a major problem, water delivery is problematic, people are dieing right and left for lack of medications, few vehicles are running, etc. Under those conditions, widespread across a very large geographical area, I don't see any electronic device being your holy grail.

A more localized disaster, where once you escape the immediately affected area you find everywhere else is still normal, then an electronic gadget may well be of help to you.

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#279135 - 01/28/16 07:50 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Alex]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
Tom_L. My take on the SHTF situation is that it relates to a sudden and serious disruption of our normal life (i.e. a massive quake, when you are left with just all you have on you or were able to grab and run from an immediate danger), which may or may not to be followed by a short or long period of TEOTWAWKI living environment, when people around are suffering but eventually adapting. A lightweight pocket smart device can be of a great help for both. I love the chaosmagnet's multi tool analogy, I would just add "with thousands of replaceable blades". So, I don't see any impact of misunderstanding of the terminology here on the usability of such a device.

Regarding the usability. In the past 4 years, after getting my Note 3 smartphone, I'm using my superpowerful "32" QHD screen latest i7 32GB RAM, quad RAID0 SSD, 2x4Gb Nvidia SLI, 2kW PSU Windows PC monster" only for immersive virtual reality games, processing HD video, CAD drawing, and micro controllers programming (the later will change soon as well). The rest of everyday and work related tasks, including the 3D printing, are perfectly handled by that phone only (sometimes with a Bluetooth full keyboard and/or Chromecast dongle), and that's a 2 generations old model gadget. I'm even coding Android apps for my Android phone right on that phone.

Another well obscured benefit of the phone vs rugged laptop is the boot time. On any laptop it's too long for a practical on the go use even on a RAID0 SSD equipped laptop. If you are referring to the lack of the screen size (legit for the large map use or an aging eyesight) - the modern phone has a true HD and even QHD resolution, which is the same or much better than what an average laptop can offer. Just get a +2 reading glasses and you have a crisp 32" screen in front of you (I've got this modern marvel, even though I'm 20/20). You can connect a normal keyboard and mouse, if you wish, as well.

For the aluminum foil - I've explained already: that's really just elementary physics. Try to Google that avoiding preppers' websites wink

The rest of your concerns is very well explained by chaosmagnet, I hope.

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#279136 - 01/28/16 07:57 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: Alex]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
By the way, regarding the off the grid communications. The smartphone can provide that as well utilizing the peer-to peer mesh network solutions such as the famous FireChat app without any special effort (although for the base camp communications you can deploy high gain directional antennas, wifi repeaters/extenders with wired segments, etc). Also there are mobile (foot long inch wide stick like) mobile cell towers are available on the market already: http://www.cnet.com/news/gotenna-creates-cell-network-out-of-thin-air-anywhere-on-earth/

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#279138 - 01/28/16 09:05 PM Re: Survival tablet [Re: chaosmagnet]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Originally Posted By: haertig
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
Hmm, I suspect some of us have widely differing notions of 'SHTF'.

I'm sure that is the root of many of the differences of opinion here.


Yup, and no doubt the notion on what does or does not constitute a SHTF situation is subjective to some degree. Which invariably biases our views and expectations - taking just one particular argument as an example:

Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Keeping kids calm in a bug-in or shelter situation has a huge impact on them and on the morale of others. I've seen this first-hand when my CERT operated a shelter during a large-scale natural disaster, so I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here.


My experience with shelters is a little different. Many years ago when I was a kid, my family and I needed to take refuge inside an air shelter on several occasions due to the threat of aerial bombing. War was exciting enough for youngsters like myself, but keeping the kids calm inside the shelter was really the least of everyone's concern. People were more worried about keeping the air pumps and generators running, and keeping the fingers crossed that no bombs or missiles land on our little piece of turf (none did - the nearest impact was several miles away). I think that qualifies more or less as a SHTF situation even though it could've been a whole lot worse at the time, and for many it was.

IMHO a lot of people these days, at least in the comfort of civilization, tend to confuse the difference between "inconvenience" and actual life-threatening "SHTF". That's probably also the reason why we'll have to agree to disagree on some counts, and that's perfectly ok. No need to prove anything and no axe to grind.

Realistically speaking, for most Westerners these days the threat of actual "SHTF" is (thankfully still) very remote and something they are highly unlikely to encounter on their home turf at the present.

IF it comes to proper SHTF though the real priorities will become very clear very fast. At the same time, what might seem important, even essential right now may turn out to be largely irrelevant. IMHO smartphones, tablets and computers in general are not really "essential" survival gear, simply because there are other things more immediately useful or important in procuring the basic necessities like water, food, shelter, health and security.

But nice to have - certainly. Same as a comfortable couch, for example. Which I would take over a smartphone loaded to the hilt with the latest games and apps if I had to stay inside an air raid shelter again for some time. smile

YMMV! cool

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