I currently have a Garmin 60CSx which I use sparingly. I did use it on a wilderness training this past weekend. As it is a discontinued model, I'm wondering if it is time to upgrade.

After reading up on the newer models, it seems like they all have things I'm really not interested in. I don't geocache, I don't mountain bike, I don't open water fish, I don't need it for my vehicle.

The things I'm looking for are Garmin, large display, topo maps, PC upload/download capability and the ability to set a waypoint by coordinates. That's about it. I don't want to spend $500 to get those along with things I'll never use.

Anything worth getting, or just use what I have until it dies?

My 13-year-old Garmin eTrex Summit, while slower to get a fix and with less battery life than newer units, continues to impress me with its ridiculous ruggedness and longevity. If your existing unit continues to meet your needs, it's hard for me to advocate replacing it.

For others reading this: As always, make sure that you have non-electronic backups that you know how to use. I don't get out as much as I'd like to, so I set important waypoints in my GPS but otherwise don't use it other than spot checks. This helps me keep my map, compass and observation skills from degrading.

One reason to upgrade is that the newer 60 series Garmin receivers can use Lithium primary batteries which was one reason I had considered upgrading. Then I switched to rechargable NiMH batteries and I see no reason to upgrade from an already great GPS.

One reason to upgrade is that the newer Garmin receivers such as the Garmin GPSMAP 64st use Russian GLONASS as well as the U.S. GPS system which may be a good capability. Don't know.

I am the proud owner of a discontinued Garmin GPSr, and I continue to use it profitably. If your unit is performing adequately for your needs, what reason would there be to replace it, especially if the available models have superfluous features? Is this a trick question?

Nope, just wondering if I was missing something in the new models. Doesn't look like I am. Thanks all.

I've switched to the phone completely for the past 7-8 years. It's always with me anyway, so why don't use it for navigation? There are plenty of amazing Nav software available. The battery never been an issue, as it's well taken care of through the day already (spare batteries, huge power bank, portable solar panels, AA/Car charging adapters, or you can get one of these if you have too little sun at your neck of the woods). The mechanical protection is good enough for me with the OtterBox defender case, especially with its belt clip and neck/hand lanyard (I rarely travel by water, though, but waterproofing cases are available as well). I cannot imagine a situation a dedicated consumer grade unit could be better than (or even on par with) a top Android smart phone (have no idea about the iGadgets) if the later is properly rigged for hiking. Always wondering how that ancient industry is surviving still?

I'm still keeping my 16 years old eTrex in one of my three BOBs though.

Smart phones touch screens + bad weather = bad.

My cluncy old Magellan meridian color has big fat buttons, I can operate it with heavy clumsy mittens, no matter how bad the weather.
http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/magellanmeridiancolour.php

For fair weather I use my smart phone for just about anything, and switch between a handful of map applications.

Which is exactly why I haven't spent money on replacing the old trusty magellan clunker with something more modern. The user interface is frankly quite horrible before you get to know it, and the screen isn't impressive by any modern standard. But when I really need something reliable - I bring out the old clunker.

With the right smartphone case, you might could mimick the big buttons of the magellan? Maybe no cases really have big buttons.

There are weatherproof smart phones, though I still cling to my Garmin Etrex legend.

Buttons? What buttons? Just tell it what you want!
Seriously, I'm developing a GIS app at the moment over the Google Maps. If you can come up with a concise list of voice commands you may want your typical GPS to understand, I could think of implementing that someday.

I have one, a Sony Z3. I like it, partly because it's water-proof and partly because its batteries last me several days, but it's not easy to use with conventional gloves on.

A quick and dirty solution is to put the phone in a "hefty" type resealable bag. The touch screen on my phone (Samsung G-6) works through the bag, and the bag is waterproof.

Exactly. There are cheap bags exactly for that widely available, as well as waterproof cases, as well as warm gloves, to work with touch screens (in cold weather I'm wearing wool mittens converting to cut off fingers gloves, tested ideal down to 0F).

My smartphone is waterproof - but forget about working the touchscreen when it's wet. Doesn't work, at least not with my fingers.

I actually think one of those (semi-)waterproof smartphone pouches where you can use the touchscreen through some kind of transparent (plastic?) material would work much better in precipitation, at least when it's not too cold outside. Those pouches might get very stiff when it gets cold (untested by me).

And don't forget -- when it's bad I want to use the unit with thick gloves or mittens. Then I want big fat buttons to push!

Can you tell, what exactly needs to be controlled on a GPS by these buttons? (Itemized list, please).

During transit: No bare hands-operation
Zoom in / out
Pan
Toggle between different modes of navigation display (map - arrow showing direction to next waypoint, )
Set wp at my position (and preferably give it a name that makes sense)
show/hide my track

Preparing transit: (Preferably done somewhere quiet, where I can consentrate. Normally, I'd do this stuff with bare hands).
Prepare waypoints (from coordinates, or by clicking in the map)
Map display - to familiarize with route, and how the GPS map will display the terrain.

Thanks.

I can suggest the following:

1. Zoom in / out - 2 volume buttons, they are large enough (alternatively, shake the phone up/down/up/down to zoom in, down/up/down/up to zoom out - the first move dictates the direction, others - confirms it);

2. Pan - tilt the phone for more than 45 deg to the direction you want to pan, then back to normal for a fixed pan step;

3. Toggle between different modes of navigation display (map - arrow showing direction to next waypoint, ) - Shake your phone vigorously left-right (along the short side) to switch the mode from the looped list;

4. Set wp at my position (and preferably give it a name that makes sense) - cover the top of the screen with your hand (glove/mitten/bare/your forehead - doesn't matter) to trip the proximity sensor and cause the WP registered on the map (optionally use the voice to input the WP name, or I can think of gravity driven keyboard if you so prefer - still better than the 5 buttons input of Magellan);

5. show/hide my track - shake the phone forward/backward (along the longer side).

Also we have in the reserve "turn the screen over (screen down) and back" and "slap it with other hand at one of its 6 sides N times" but these are less practical.

Would that work for you?

I have my doubts - but I wont make my prejudices stand in the way of innovation! If you make it, I'll try it!

Operating the volume buttons works OK on my device with my mittens and my fingers. I can't feel it - but I just push where it's supposed to be, and that works.

You should also know that I'm not interested in holding my navigation device in my hand perpetually when moving about. It's tiresome, and it's just too easy to loose it. So my device will be tied to a loop over my neck and one shoulder. It is super easy to grab it with one hand, operate it and just let it dangle when I've satisfied my navigation needs. That could possibly create caos in your "turn the screen over" logic. Or perhaps one of the buttons (the volume?) will take the device out of "screen saving mode" into "operations mode"? And some flick (or dropping it 4 inches, then dangle) would turn off the screen and all operations?

Yes, I understand your concerns. Sure thing, prior to "shaking" operations the navigator must be brought into the "operations" mode. Is the regular "Power" button is too awkward to use? Both of mine are superb. I like the "dangling" command idea. The screen off mode trigger could be configured simply for a certain device orientation (like the vertical one, on the lanyard). I can rig an app for proof of concept testing soon, however at the moment I'm working with the Google Maps API, which might be not good for a serious testing in the field, as it requires an Internet connection (no caching is possible with their API). However, I plan to switch to the OSM at some point, as it looks robust enough already, with many hiking trails mapped by the community. I doubt I'm going to compete with the plethora of Android NAV aps, but the OSM community may listen to this idea and add such a feature to my favorite OSMAnd project, for example.

By the way, when hiking I'm carrying my smartphone on the neck as well (not sure what you mean about the shoulder though, under the armpit probably?). The lanyard is long enough to operate the device, as well as to put it into the shirt's front pocket, when dangling is inconvenient (i.e. when climbing a rock), or a bit more protection required (i.e. dust).

Also I have invented another technique for the convenient phone lanyard, which does not require a loop, thus not require a breakout device for it either. With that, the phone is riding high (just below the shoulder line) on the one side of the chest (pectoral), the lanyard goes up over the shoulder, behind the neck, over the other shoulder and the other side of the chest, and connects to the shirt's button hole or to the collar of the T-shirt (with a pin/clamp/-binner). That position is much more safe and convenient for carrying the phone ready for action, as it's not actually "dangling" much when your torso moves. You can easily glance at the chest's side to see some info quickly, or pulling the screen a bit, as well as operate it to some extent, and you can always move it over the neck and bring in front of you for more extensive operation. It's is still short enough to stop the phone's falling from your hands far from the ground. In fact, my phone's lanyard is a 5 "strands" folding transformer with an S-binner and a ring, which allows the neck, wrist, shoulder, belt, and even single finger carrying/holding I should make a post about it some day.

A traditional paper map is easily handled while walking, and the hand maneuvers are fairly intuitive and not very complex. I suppose this is what an old geezer who has been handling paper maps for over fifty years without becoming hopelessly lost might say....

If you are preparing for the walk - sure thing, take the paper map if using it is a part of the outdoors joy, or as a spare if not that much anymore. However, if stranded while just traversing some rural woods in the car, I doubt you will have one usable for walking ready at hand. Also the phone is always with me anyway (communications, photo-video), so why not use it for mapping and tracking my progress for later analysis? It saves time too. On an unfamiliar trail I never even really stopping at the crossings to orient, just push the button, see where you are on the map (a blue triangle on mine), and take the turn you already have marked on it. You can even setup an alarm so not to miss the turn you need. I spent a bit less than 50 years using maps and love them too (I recall that when I got unlimited access to the "printing press grade" color printer at the very end of the past century, I've been obsessed with printing topo-maps in sections on A3 paper and gluing them to the paper walls of my room - probably hundreds square feet of calling beauty ), but I already have a very little desire spending precious outdoors time practicing basic field orienting, there are so many other more interesting and less practiced things to do and try.

Both paper and digital maps have their pluses and minuses, and in a given situation, one form may have advantages. I like the fact that paper does not require batteries and can be easily viewed in bright sunlight. A paper map will continue to function after a salt water dunking, unlike a phone. In an emergency, you can trim the margins of your paper map and voila! - tinder for your fire (my frequently used maps are often coated with some sort or another of 'Map Goo" which will burn quite readily).

Many recommend that you carry both - they aren't mutually exclusive.

My point is: if you carry a smartphone, and fond of the ETS mindset - invest in a decent Nav software for your phone and learn to use it. You cannot EDC all the topo maps even for your state on paper.

To the advantages of paper maps - they are nothing compared to the advantages of having a smartphone with hundreds of apps and digitized papers and a solar charger. I would not mind traveling without a paper map, rather substituting it with a roll of TP And there is no harm dunking the phone in a proper protective shell into salt water. The modern SuperAMOLED screen is totally fine to use in direct sunlight. For the fire making, if nothing else available, you can use the electric power of your phone's battery or charger, it's far more superior to a sparkler or friction methods, so the tinder quality is not that crucial (another argument to my list of ideal ETS smartphone properties on the other tread - removable battery).

By the way, any powerful smartphone is quite a decent hand warmer and flashlight so you may need less urgency in making a fire

Good point! Paper maps could substitute for toilet paper in a pinch (so to speak), although snowballs are better.....

The power button should work just fine.

However, my favorite android toy must be unlocked with PIN after a certain time period. I can't change this due to company policy. However, some apps seems to have permissions or otherwise circumvent the screen lock (or whatever it's called). It's something that must be considered.

For my use, this kind of mapping application simply would not work with the "unlock with pin" screen mode. It isn't a showstopper for proof of concept testing, I'm OK with that.


Not a showstopper for me doing proof of concept testing or beta-testing. Plenty of bad weather and terrain with 3G/4G or above right where I live


Yep, device dangles under or in front of armpit, sling over oposite shoulder.

Would appreciate a post or some pics of your other sling / carrying ideas, they seem pretty promising, although I didn't catch all the details.

Unfortunately, the system lock screen is impossible to overcome except for either rooted devices or integrated apps, installed by manufacturer or cell provider (though, some companies may have their corporate apps installed by manufacturer as well with root-like privileges, which might include lock screen overriding). So, that must be out of scope for a third party public app.

Will try to make an overview of my sling solution on weekend.

The "proof of concept app" need to wait for a couple of weeks to free up some time for it.

The other option would be to set the phone to not go to sleep when using maps/navigation or with an external power source. Since my phone is waterproof I charge via a wireless puck it sits on so I've thought about making a small case that holds it next to the charging puck which is fed off a USB cable hanging from my backpack strap. This way I can simply set it to stay awake while externally powered and not have to turn it on.

The Android demo app is ready for review in its preliminary form. Sorry had no chance to polish it well, broke my shoulder, but it should work to most of what we discussed. See the details here https://github.com/halxinate/gyronav There will be a list of files / folders there above the readme file content, just click the app-release.apk from your phone to download and install it (the rest is for developers). Your phone must be set to allow installing from unknown sources first: System Settings / Security / Unknown Sources / Check

Navigation system that works without batteries

"pans, zooms, and rotations are performed without image degradation"

http://blog.owareusa.com/2013/08/05/navigation-system-that-works-without-batteries/

...and weights hundreds tons just for the CONUS down to the typical gMaps 1:200 scale, doesn't show your position, requires weeks to flip to the page with your location, obsolete the day you bought it, hard to edit or annotate for more than a couple of times, needs a flashlight to work with in the dark, needs a compass to align with the terrain...

Ahh yes! Cutting edge tech versus traditional ways....Realistically, both have their virtues. I used, and in some cases, made, good ol' paper maps.

I jumped on GPS technology when it first came out and used it gainfully in archaeological work. It was, and is, absolutely wonderful knowing precisely where you were (with certain exceptions and caveats). In a given situation, either technology might be optimum. If you know what you are doing, either mode will get you out and back with no problems.

A well made map is a work of art. Nobody ever made that claim about any Garmin product.

I've played around with it, and the various "shake-rattle-and-tilt" options seems to be well thought out and work reasonably well. I think it is only a matter of time/training before this way of manipulating the map becomes natural. Must probably fine-tune the sensitivity settings a bit to suit me better, kudos for including functionality to do that.

What I miss (and think you should give priority when developing this app further):
- We've discussed the "cant override the screen lock" - problem I have on my phone. But on phones without company policy restrictions I think it will important with a well thought out, hassle-free method of locking and unlocking the screen.

- A quick way of sentering the map on your current position _*without*_ clicking the icon on the screen.

I have no idea of how that can be achieved. You seem to have made good use of the various shake-rattle-and-roll options I can think of. But there's still the power button, or the volume buttons (both the volume up and volume down may be assigned the same function).

simple practical question.

does anyone have a mapping GPS that they are happy with?

I dont expect perfection. just something that works, and creates a map that makes sense.

I will be using the unit in S. America. I dont expect the GPS to do a perfect job with road systems. Nobody knows all the roads in S. America. but if the unit can give me a wide angle display, so i can see my relationship compared to major towns ... thats good enough.

I dont use a smartphone, because Internet in S. America varies between terrible and nonexistent.

Thanks for any thoughts!!

Pete

Recent episode with a new Garmin GPS (last weekend):

Going to a house in the mountains. Up several winding dirt roads with a bazillion turns required to get to the destination. Nothing new about these dirt roads, they've been there for decades.

Garmin sent us up to a dead end road. It was like an overlook - you climbed a hill and the dead end had views in every direction (over cliffs) except for the road we just drove up. BTW, this overlook was about five miles from the actual destination (as the crow flies, about ten miles as the roads weave).

Then Garmin told us to "turn right". That would have been a death move. So we fired up the cellphones - both an iPhone and an Android phone, and tried to load their respective GPS/maps applications. No go - there was no cell signal up there, let alone a mobile data connection, to download any maps. So while they could tell us our position (Lat/Lon), that was of zero help without a map.

The driver was the one relying on the GPS. Us other two passengers knew better, and we had written down turn my turn directions ahead of time. So after we had proven to our friend that GPS was not really to be trusted in all situations, we promptly found our way to the destination using written instructions and hand-scribbled maps. That was kind of fun, maybe cruel to our friend, but still fun none-the-less. But we made our point.

I think GPS is good for giving you your location, and then you use that with the topo maps you are also carrying. But depending on GPS/online maps alone? Ha! What folly! Even the built in maps on the Garmin were bad.

I agree with you. I had a GPS in Chile that directed me the wrong way ... onto a freeway exit. stuff happens.

Im not depending on the map feature. but i do think that a mapping tool is useful. I have maps, printed, for S. America. They are also not well designed ... often very impractical.

I think that the real world will always defeat these technologies. Computers will never get all of the fine details :-)

I used paper maps both for work, play, and volunteer rescue for decades before GPS came along. GPS gave me usually unequivocal location information, although in precipitous terrain, some signal distortion did occur.

I use my GPS continually, but always in conjunction with a paper map.

I'd recommend getting driving and gps apps for your phone...even if you don't use them...you'll have them.

What is the military current iteneration of GPS? Seems I had read about a new personal GPS they were issuing.

Phone gps does not rely on internet. It is a standalone gps.

It's the maps download that goes along with the GPS that requires an internet connection (unless you've pre-downloaded the relevant maps in advance). There are non-map-oriented GPS apps for smartphones, but AFAIK, you have to manually download and install those apps. The GPS apps that typically come on the phones from the manufacturer - Google Maps, etc. - tend to expect an internet connection to be in place. I'd hope these bigger apps will all still give you your coordinates in the absence of maps, there's no reason why they shouldn't, because as jshannon says, the GPS receiver itself is separate from the internet.