Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#278908 - 01/21/16 06:13 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: clearwater]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Originally Posted By: clearwater
You do have to use scissors correctly. Practice with wobbly cheap kids or EMT snips till you can cut any thickness of material. It is a matter of pushing the blades against each other sideways as well as up and down. One can even cut seatbelt with tiny thread snips if one practices.


It's an intriguing possibility. I'm something of a handyman and tend to keep a good (my better half would say huge smile ) selection of tools around the house, some fairly common and some quite exotic. So generally speaking, I know what I can expect from a given tool. But somehow I've always felt let down by those EMT shears. My practical experience seems to be very much in line with this test on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJoF3lDm9cQ

Maybe it's a matter of using inferior EMT shears. Maybe, as you say, it has something to do with my technique. But... I have at least a dozen different shears, cutters etc. for sheet metal, a toolbox full of leatherworking tools etc. I can do good work with each particular tool - apart from those darned EMT shears. smile

Does anyone have any especially good experience with a particular brand of EMT shears that seem to be a cut (pun intended!) above the rest?

Top
#278909 - 01/21/16 06:21 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: clearwater]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4709
Loc: SOCAL
My rescue knife is a Spyderco Assist I Squeeze the blade tighter while closed and the carbide glass breaker protrudes from the handle, otherwise it's parked out of the way. My Benchmade Triage OTOH has a glass breaker that is always exposed, sometimes that's not so good. The Spyderco Assist is in my console, Benchmade Triage is in the bag.

No affiliation with Knifecenter, it's just a convenient link.

Top
#278911 - 01/21/16 06:41 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: ireckon]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Also, talking about seatbelt cutters and rescue tools... There are clearly many different options available. Webbing can be cut efficiently with a sharp knife, scissors, shears, specialized seatbelt cutters - but some may work better than others in a specific scenario.

Rescuing somebody else trapped in a vehicle for instance is not the same as attempting to do a self-rescue if you happen to be the victim yourself. IME a sturdy fixed blade knife makes a very good egress tool in a pinch. Some models like the Gerber LMF II have specific features that make them particularly effective for that sort of work. The Glock field knife and many other blades of the "sharpened prybar" variety work well, too. Robust enough to force open a car door if needed, and the point (or a glass breaker pommel if available) can be used to break a windshield. Plus there's always the sharp edge for cutting webbing and such.

A self-rescue scenario on the other hand is a different matter. You might get knocked unconscious or hurt pretty badly. People react differently to that sort of thing so it's good knowing (through training or previous experience) how you react under real stress. I use my EDC folding knife so often that it's really become an extension of my arm. I also keep a seatbelt cutter in the car, but honestly speaking I've not deployed it very often for any real purpose and I don't find it all that intuitive to use. It might be safer to use than a knife, but I'm not absolutely sure how well it would work for me under stress when seconds count.

Either way, some types of seatbelt cutters don't seem too practical if you have to use them one-handed. This could be a concern if one of your hands is injured or trapped somehow. In any case, getting caught in a bad vehicle crash is going to be a cr@pshoot. If the adrenaline kicks in quickly enough it might help initially to supress the pain and give you a momentary boost, unfortunately at the cost of fine motor skills. So little things like opening a folding safety cutter blade could become a problem.

Top
#278912 - 01/21/16 07:19 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: Tom_L]
Tjin Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1709
Quote:
The Glock field knife and many other blades of the "sharpened prybar" variety work well, too. Robust enough to force open a car door if needed, and the point (or a glass breaker pommel if available) can be used to break a windshield. Plus there's always the sharp edge for cutting webbing and such.


Have you tried? Because I found carsdoors to be pretty stubborn. Steel doors (any, not just cars) tend to bent, not break. Atleast the steel sheet metal. The internal (ultra)(very)high strenght steel beams on the other hand. Well good luck bending that with any manual tool. Also a knife point does not equal a good glass tool.

Properly mounted self rescue tools can be used to save other, but folding knife in your front pockets or belt is absolute useless while strapped in.

Personnally I think those 'rescue knifes' from known knife companys are gimmicks. Not glove friendly, too light to really break glass easily to much folding stuff. Most commenly used style rescue tools used by proffesionals (well in my country) look like this:



Not very practical to mount as a self rescue tool, but for those situations a solid big handled tools is still a must.

Quote:
I use my EDC folding knife so often that it's really become an extension of my arm.


Adrenaline is good for raw strenght, but not for precision. A adrenaline shot combined with confusion and high stress can really ruin the ability do precision work. Muscle memory help to a extend...
_________________________
My Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjQHh-hs39h6xWirxHo_HwA

Top
#278916 - 01/21/16 09:16 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: Tjin]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Originally Posted By: Tjin
Properly mounted self rescue tools can be used to save other, but folding knife in your front pockets or belt is absolute useless while strapped in.


Now that you mention it - a few years ago I was involved in a fairly serious car crash, rammed from behind by another vehicle at high speed. I suffered a minor neck injury, sprained shoulder and some bruising. I was able to deploy my folding knife clipped to my front cargo pocket without any difficulty. It was completely instinctive on my part, I did it without really thinking about it. Just as I was about to cut the seatbelt though I figured I ought to give the buckle another try and managed to disengage it just fine. So no cutting was required that day. smile

You're absolutely right that specialized heavy duty tools are much more effective for rescue applications, but unfortunately they're seldom available when needed. A simpler tool such as a large screwdriver, fixed blade knife etc. can come in handy in that kind of situation if no better alternative is at hand. Not necessarily the most professional or efficient way to do it, but it just might work. I have (ab)used the Glock knife for a similar application with some success in a couple of occasions - thankfully never in a real life or death situation. I also used an entreching tool once to pry open a jammed door. It wasn't pretty but it did the trick luckily. The Gerber LMF II has been quite popular in some branches of the military lately for the same purpose. I'm sure a proper crowbar or rescue tool would work much better still if you can get hold of one in time.

Top
#278917 - 01/21/16 09:16 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: Tjin]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6222
Loc: southern Cal
My tool for this situation is a Z Rex http://www.leatherman.com/z-rex-32.html . Got it primarily to free others from entrapment, and it is now kept in a latched compartment close at hand to the driver. This informative discussion will get me back to the drawing board for a bit of fine tuning....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#278919 - 01/21/16 09:41 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: Tom_L]
Tjin Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1709
Originally Posted By: Tom_L

I was able to deploy my folding knife clipped to my front cargo pocket without any difficulty.


I actually mentioned front pockets and the belt on purpose. Cargo pockets seems to stay pretty accessible. (having bulky items in cargo pocket can cause other issues during a side impact) Do not forget gravity, when being upside down. Instinct can be a issue when you are upside down.

Originally Posted By: Tom_L
[A simpler tool such as a large screwdriver, fixed blade knife etc. can come in handy in that kind of situation if no better alternative is at hand. Not necessarily the most professional or efficient way to do it, but it just might work. I have (ab)used the Glock knife for a similar application with some success in a couple of occasions - thankfully never in a real life or death situation. I even used an entreching tool once to pry open a jammed door. It wasn't pretty but it did the trick luckily. The Gerber LMF II has been quite popular in some branches of the military lately for the same purpose. I'm sure a proper crowbar or rescue tool would work much better still if you can get hold of one in time.


Note, that since the middle of the 90īs safety has jumped up significantly. The passenger compartments are made much much stronger. Intrusion inside the passenger compartment has significantly been reduced. Car doors are far less likely to get stuck, due to the frame around it being bend far less. (sometimes it not actually stuck, just locked. But some car manufacture also auto unlock feature when the airbags deploy)

The introduction of every stronger steels, mean certain thing wonít bent. Which is good during a crash and something to consider when a car needs to be cut by fire and rescue. Since steel doesnít bent as easily, relief cuts are more important. Pushing parts apart may not require stabilisation on the pushed parts, due to the strength. Also cutting tools have become much more powerful to deal with these stronger steels.

Most modern fire departments also have a data terminal on their vehicles, so they can look up the properties of cars. Airbags, seatbelt tensioners, high voltage cabling (electric and hybrids), battery locations, type of steels used in certain parts need to be taken in to account before they can start cutting.

This also mean that simple tools in the past, no longer work properly or at all. With increased safety in cars, you will also need to specialise the rescue tools required for them.

For consumers current new things to consider are:
- A lot more laminated glass is currently used on new vehicles on side windows and panoramic roofs. This makes windows punches pretty useless.
- Due to the high amount of airbags; make sure nothing is between them and you. Having front, side, window and knee airbags really limits the amount the locations you can store things, including locations where rescue tools can be mounted.
_________________________
My Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjQHh-hs39h6xWirxHo_HwA

Top
#278936 - 01/22/16 08:39 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: Tjin]
AKSAR Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1078
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Tjin
For self-rescue, a seatbelt cutter should in my mind be mounted in a readily accessible location in the car and not in a bag/glovebox/trunk.
------snip------------------
Donít under estimate the how disorientating flipping inside a vehicle is.
----------------snip-----------
A good self rescue tool should be accessible in any possible position, while remaining in the seat.

Having some means to cut seat belts makes sense for rescuing others. However, I don't think there is often much need for a tool in self rescue. In the vast majority of cases, the best self rescue tool is going to be your hand, simply reaching the buckle and releasing it in the usual manner. Because we buckle and unbuckle our seat belts many times each day, this is well ingrained in muscle memory, and generally works even when disoriented after a crash. And many people remain surprisingly calm after a wreck.

The experience of a women I know well illustrates this. She left the house for work a few minutes ahead of her husband. She slid off the road on an icy spot and rolled the car upside down. Her first reaction (while hanging upside down in her seat belt) was to calmly pull out her cell phone and call her husband to tell him she was OK. He would be driving the same road a few minutes after her and she didn't want him to freak out when he saw her car wrecked by the road. She then unbuckled the seat belt and crawled out the side window, which had shattered in the crash. The woman in question was about 60 years old, reasonably fit for a woman that age, but by no means an exceptional athlete.

For rescue personel (firemen or police), a rescue tool makes perfect sense. They will be outside the car, trying to extract the person. Simply cutting the belt will work much easier than trying to reach across them to the buckle. It also makes sense for us to carry a knife or rescue tool in case we are involved in an impromptu rescue of others.


Edited by AKSAR (01/22/16 08:41 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

Top
#278937 - 01/22/16 09:07 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: AKSAR]
Tjin Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1709
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Originally Posted By: Tjin
For self-rescue, a seatbelt cutter should in my mind be mounted in a readily accessible location in the car and not in a bag/glovebox/trunk.
------snip------------------
Donít under estimate the how disorientating flipping inside a vehicle is.
----------------snip-----------
A good self rescue tool should be accessible in any possible position, while remaining in the seat.

Having some means to cut seat belts makes sense for rescuing others. However, I don't think there is often much need for a tool in self rescue. In the vast majority of cases, the best self rescue tool is going to be your hand, simply reaching the buckle and releasing it in the usual manner. Because we buckle and unbuckle our seat belts many times each day, this is well ingrained in muscle memory, and generally works even when disoriented after a crash. And many people remain surprisingly calm after a wreck.

The experience of a women I know well illustrates this. She left the house for work a few minutes ahead of her husband. She slid off the road on an icy spot and rolled the car upside down. Her first reaction (while hanging upside down in her seat belt) was to calmly pull out her cell phone and call her husband to tell him she was OK. He would be driving the same road a few minutes after her and she didn't want him to freak out when he saw her car wrecked by the road. She then unbuckled the seat belt and crawled out the side window, which had shattered in the crash. The woman in question was about 60 years old, reasonably fit for a woman that age, but by no means an exceptional athlete.

For rescue personel (firemen or police), a rescue tool makes perfect sense. They will be outside the car, trying to extract the person. Simply cutting the belt will work much easier than trying to reach across them to the buckle. It also makes sense for us to carry a knife or rescue tool in case we are involved in an impromptu rescue of others.


Well actually my main reason to have rescue tool handy is the glass tool. I'm in a country with a lot of water... Seatbelt cutters are just on the same tool.
_________________________
My Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjQHh-hs39h6xWirxHo_HwA

Top
#278938 - 01/22/16 09:41 PM Re: Carry a blade that can cut through a seatbelt... [Re: Tjin]
AKSAR Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1078
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Tjin
Well actually my main reason to have rescue tool handy is the glass tool. I'm in a country with a lot of water... Seatbelt cutters are just on the same tool.
Good point! I forgot to mention that. Carrying a window breaking tool makes good sense.

I also found your comments on how newer cars require different rescue methods interesting. I was reading an article awhile back that made similar points about airport fire/rescue teams. Newer designs and materials have made air crashes more survivable, but also require different methods for fire/rescue teams to put out the fires and get people out.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

Top
Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >



Moderator:  KG2V, NightHiker 
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30
Who's Online
1 registered (Tjin), 161 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Ak47Lover, Nari, Begaye, JDanny, Just
5246 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Swiss Tech
by quick_joey_small
Today at 06:16 AM
Camping is love
by TomP
Today at 04:52 AM
Developing Survival Skills in SAR
by AKSAR
Today at 04:24 AM
Canada to finally get a national celluar alert sys
by dougwalkabout
Today at 02:27 AM
Hospital Evacuation
by Jeanette_Isabelle
Yesterday at 03:28 PM
DefCon Checklist
by hikermor
Yesterday at 12:51 PM
Whole Lot of Shakin" Goin" On
by hikermor
04/18/18 10:05 PM
Bandaids That Don't Stick (Rant)
by Bingley
04/18/18 05:56 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.