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#277600 - 11/19/15 12:29 AM WW III
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Per the rules of this forum, we are not to discuss how, who, where and when.

For the sake of discussion, WW III is upon us. Is there anything beyond the usual preparedness such as a battery-powered radio, flashlights, batteries, candles, first aid kits and cans of SPAM we need to consider?

We are not to discuss religion so I will be as generic as I know. One thing I know to consider, for those who believe in something, is to be spiritually ready or however it is said in what you believe. For those who believe that way, I would advise being spiritually ready in addition to everything else.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277601 - 11/19/15 12:32 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
We are allowed to discuss zombies. For the sake of discussion, we are at war with zombies.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277603 - 11/19/15 01:03 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: TX
Generally this site is for more localized, day-to-day disasters rather than TEOTWAWKI stuff but if everyone can keep their posts reasonable and polite I'll let it stay.

Okay, since it's unlikely the zombies have nuclear weapons can we assume that the WWIII in question is being fought with conventional weapons across Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and even here in the New World this time. In such a situation I would assume the following:

1. Manufacturing would shift to war equipment so new iPhones or replacement parts for your car would be almost nonexistent. - have sturdy equipment and spare parts.

2. Gasoline, diesel fuel, jet fuel, etc would be rationed or priced sky-high due to needs of war or disruption of shipping. - have a bicycle, a bicycle trailer, and buckets with which to carry stuff in the trailer. Have spare parts for bike and trailer.

3. Limitations would probably put on travel above and beyond the effects of the fuel shortage. - Have a shortwave radio or other ways to communicate with people other than in person, though radio transmissions might also be banned.

4. A thriving black market would appear. - Learn to haggle now. Develop a skill that is haggle-able rather than storing stuff for the end of the world. Fixing/mending/jury-rigging/sewing is a good skill.

5. Assume thieves and black marketers will be executed first, given a trial later. - Don't get caught breaking the rules.

6. Most of what you hear will be lies. - Work on developing your BS filter.

7. Assume electricity will not be available 24/7. - Have ways to charge stuff if you must have stuff that needs charging.

8. Medicines, especially antibiotics and burn treatments will be in short supply. Specialty medicines will be in short supply. Hospitals will quickly become "3rd world" level. - Learn 1st aid, learn natural medicines, stockpile gauze, know how to assist a childbirth, know what to do with a dead body (head shot).

9. The ability to keep yourself, your clothes, your dishes, etc may be greatly impacted. - Learn basic hygiene (making soap or utilizing sapon-rich plants, how to hand-wash clothes, reusable menstrual devices, etc.)

10. Nighttime lighting may be limited. - Prepare your house for you being "blind", everything always in the same spot when not in use. Know who to safely use alternative light sources such as oil lamps, candles, etc. Solar-charged yard landscaping lights are AWESOME, they got me through hurricane Ike.

11. The people who like you will try and help you. - Develop friendships, especially with neighbors.

12. People who like you may still backstab you. - Stay alert, don't display items of value, make what you know your most valuable asset.

-Blast
_________________________
Foraging Texas
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Radio Call Sign: KI5BOG
*As an Amazon Influencer, I may earn a sales commission on Amazon links in my posts.

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#277604 - 11/19/15 04:15 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
I actually think that Sheriff Blast has a lot of excellent suggestions there.

4 @ 5 - I agree that black markets will set up quickly. But what exactly are YOU going to trade? Assuming they don't want money (maybe yes or no), OTHER ITEMS to trade. But what exactly? I'll be honest and say that I don't have a good answer myself. But having some tradeable items, or skills, is a good idea. I also agree that some black marketeers will be rounded up and either stuck in a Government holding pen - or shot. If they're bootlegging really essential items (like water) they probably deserve it.

#7 agree. this is a very good reason to have some portable solar cells that can re-charge some batteries and a cell phone.

#8 is a genuine concern. absence of good meds is going to affect a lot of people. This might be one of those "tradeable items" that is extremely useful. If you have the worlds supply of Tylenol in your garage, could be a useful stash :-)

#13 I will add this. STAY AWAY from all Government facilities and Police facilities. They will probably be low on manpower, and they will not take kindly to people jumping the fence. I would not be surprised if the Gov't deploys snipers onto the roofs of buildings that have critical importance. Avoid these places at all cost.

In a real WWIII scenario - really? If you haven't bugged out to some remote location that has good water, firewood, and shelter - you are probably already screwed. Do you really want to fight it out with all the "survivor rats" in the city?

Pete

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#277605 - 11/19/15 04:19 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1441
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
We are not to discuss religion so I will be as generic as I know. One thing I know to consider, for those who believe in something, is to be spiritually ready or however it is said in what you believe. For those who believe that way, I would advise being spiritually ready in addition to everything else.


Maybe we can make this more concrete. Make peace, so if your life ends now, it will not end with regret -- about estranged sisters, about the things you wish you had said to your ex, about spending more about time your kids, etc. In times of great stress, this sort of stuff comes back to haunt you and destabilize your mind. I'd say survival situations and war times count as times of great stress. Be able to walk out with a clear conscience.

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#277607 - 11/19/15 05:37 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Bingley - good contribution. personal integrity and faith are important.

Back to the Original Post:
ONE IDEA that noobdy ever talks about. In a WWIII situation, what if you could get yourself a boat? Any kind of boat that is OK for the open ocean. You are not going anywhere in particular. You are just floating around in an empty space of sea. You equip the boat with as much food and water as you can safely carry. then you go out into the ocean, far from land, and you float there for 3 months. Or 6 months.

It's not a bad idea. Because in a WWIII situation all humans are your enemies. and a lot of people will kill themselves in 6 months. so isolate yourself on the ocean.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/19/15 05:38 AM)

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#277608 - 11/19/15 07:32 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 524
Loc: UK
Blast wrote:

>Manufacturing would shift to war equipment so new iPhones or >replacement parts for your car would be almost nonexistent. - >have sturdy equipment and spare parts.

That's a very good point. At the start of WWII the manufacture of cars for civilian use simply stopped dead. Try and get everyone in the family to use THE SAME model of car. The you can canablise for parts.
And fueless transport; a bycycle and trailer, would be very useful (and get a BIG chain and lock; they were prized things to steal)

Here in the UK we were under seige in WWII so we were short of everything. Onions were prizes in raffles. Soap was in very short supply. People had 'carrot tans' since tans weren't ratoned and people went orange. And many a GI found the gels all over him for a pair of nylons.
Look at what happened last time for an idea of what happens next.
qjs

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#277610 - 11/19/15 01:37 PM Re: WW III [Re: quick_joey_small]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Originally Posted By: quick_joey_small
Blast wrote:

>Manufacturing would shift to war equipment so new iPhones or >replacement parts for your car would be almost nonexistent. - >have sturdy equipment and spare parts.

--- Soap was in very short supply. ---


Something to trade? Soap! During the fall of the Soviet Union, soap was also in short supply and a black market item. All types, but apparently laundry soap was most valuable.

Relatively cheap (not the name brands), stores nearly forever, always useful. Might be quite valuable as trading goods.
_________________________
"Better is the enemy of good enough."

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#277611 - 11/19/15 02:01 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1776
I don’t think a world war, like the previous 2 is likely. The world is to interconnected and dependent on each other.

Anyways, I think the best strategy is getting away far and fast. Having things to survive a period of time is one thing, but food and soaps won’t protect you from bombs.
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#277612 - 11/19/15 02:24 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 863
Loc: Colorado
Certain areas of the world have been in low-level war off and on for years and years. Seems like that might be the baseline of what it looks like no matter where it's actually happening.

The zombies have been looking for nukes and have been learning how to make dirty bombs so these might be factors in III that weren't present in I and II. Knowing some basic precautions in that/those events could prove useful.

Seems like widespread conflicts reduce down to "tribe" or "me and mine" in terms of people banding together or deciding who is in or out of the sphere of help. It also decides who gets drafted to go risk or forfeit their lives for the State.

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#277613 - 11/19/15 02:27 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Tradeable Items

some good suggestions so far ...

1. Soap (personal and laundry), cheap, inexpensive
2. Onions, potatoes, and other long-lasting vegetables
3. Tylenol, Advil and cold medicines
4. Toilet paper
5. Bicycle parts (tires, pumps, repair kits)
6. Batteries

There seems to be a common idea on discussion forums in the USA (survivalists) that somehow people are going to "shoot their way to survival". But I honestly think that attempts to use robbery or violence to obtain personal items for survival are dangerous and counterproductive. On the other hand, somebody who is skilled at bargaining, and has a few useful items on the shelves in their house, can probably make a lot more headway.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/19/15 02:28 PM)

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#277614 - 11/19/15 02:43 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Pete
In a real WWIII scenario - really? If you haven't bugged out to some remote location that has good water, firewood, and shelter - you are probably already screwed. Do you really want to fight it out with all the "survivor rats" in the city?

Unless we get word from a credible source to go to a specific place, we're bugging in. Here is where all of are supplies are.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277615 - 11/19/15 02:55 PM Re: WW III [Re: Blast]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
Quote:
... Okay, since it's unlikely the zombies have nuclear weapons ...
Yet. However, if the zombies continue to expand their reach, there is a nation in the M.E. that has them. My gut tells me there are things in place to prevent that becoming a problem, but it's something to watch. However, we do not know how far this particular group of zombies wants to push it. Paris may have caused a reaction that they may eventually see as over-reach and a strategic error. So for the time being, conventional zombie tactics on a possibly larger scale seems to be the issue of concern.

I like Blast's list, if you have the means stock up on stuff you already use. Upgrade hardware as seems rational. Sometimes my (undiagnosed) OCD kicks in and I move forward with things that may seem irrational, but they're not wink With that in mind smile , I upgraded my 4 year old cell phone with a newer version and reloaded the apps that I actually use.

I really need a diesel truck ...

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#277616 - 11/19/15 03:03 PM Re: WW III [Re: Russ]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Let's stick to zombies without getting specific. I don't want this thread locked.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277618 - 11/19/15 03:14 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
"Unless we get word from a credible source to go to a specific place, we're bugging in. Here is where all of are supplies are."

Jeanette ... I think it all depends on what you are preparing for. If you are anticipating a crisis that lasts for a few months, and you think that supplies will eventually reach your town (or city) - then "bugging in" might be a good option. It's probably a lot better than randomly taking to the roads. You do need to have a LOT of confidence in your neighbors. And I believe that Sheriff Blast made a good point when he said ... friends will let you down.

But a true WWIII would probably throw civilization back into the stone age. Therefore, unless you have a supply of fresh water (a river) and some land where you can grow food ... your long-term prospects are not so good.

The preppers who are actually acquiring good land in distant parts of the world ... that strategy makes a lot of sense to me. I will be doing exactly the same thing in 2016.

good luck to you!

Pete

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#277621 - 11/19/15 04:58 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Pete
But a true WWIII would probably throw civilization back into the stone age. Therefore, unless you have a supply of fresh water (a river) and some land where you can grow food ... your long-term prospects are not so good.

I don't believe WW III will throw the entire civilization back to the Stone Age. A worst-case scenario I foresee is certain places would be uninhabitable.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277624 - 11/19/15 06:14 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
A limited Nuclear War, for example the equivalent to a Single Trident Missile MIRV attack (such as the missile which was recently launched over Los Angeles) on the UK would result in total destruction..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GJttnC8PoA

If you are of a nervous disposition then do not watch the 1984 film 'Threads', which seems to have been removed from Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0VcT-XWb7M

If you are of a sentimental disposition do not watch the 1986 film 'When the wind blows'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cXO1ddrbuY

Apparently, 'the looking glass' is now constantly in the air and Gladio is back alive and kicking...



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/19/15 06:18 PM)

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#277629 - 11/19/15 08:48 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 863
Loc: Colorado
http://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/ec-135.htm

Says Looking Glass was decommissioned in 1988.

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#277630 - 11/19/15 09:03 PM Re: WW III [Re: unimogbert]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
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Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Boeing E6b Mercury 'Looking Glass' are being rotated (air/ground) and even ground maintenance and refueled are being carried at secondary civilian air fields (low priority nuclear missile targets).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury

Quote:
Codenamed Looking Glass, it is United States Strategic Command (USSTRATCOM)'s Airborne Command Post, designed to take over in case the Global Operations Center (GOC), located at Offutt Air Force Base, Nebraska, is destroyed or incapable of communicating with strategic forces. The term "looking glass" is used because it "mirrors" the abilities of the US Navy to control nuclear forces.

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#277634 - 11/19/15 10:36 PM Re: WW III [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
A limited Nuclear War, for example the equivalent to a Single Trident Missile MIRV attack (such as the missile which was recently launched over Los Angeles) on the UK would result in total destruction..

Per the rules of this forum I can't get into why I believe we will not see total destruction unless we are talking about specific places in the world.

For the sake of discussion New York City is gone. No one will be returning to that area any time soon. Those far away from NYC are safe. However, being the economic center of the United States, a total destruction of NYC would cause a ripple effect. The markets, the banking system and the largest distribution hub in the U.S. is now gone. Cash will be king and, if we are lucky, we can withdraw cash from our bank if it ever opens. The distribution of goods will be greatly impacted.

For that reason, if I were a zombie with a few nuclear weapons, NYC would be the only city in the U.S. I would attack. Zombies, after all, have a long history of attacking the commerce of their enemy.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277635 - 11/20/15 12:06 AM Re: WW III [Re: Blast]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 856
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Blast

4. A thriving black market would appear. - Learn to haggle now. Develop a skill that is haggle-able rather than storing stuff for the end of the world. Fixing/mending/jury-rigging/sewing is a good skill.
.....
9. The ability to keep yourself, your clothes, your dishes, etc may be greatly impacted. - Learn basic hygiene (making soap or utilizing sapon-rich plants, how to hand-wash clothes, reusable menstrual devices, etc.)


It sounds like pre-industrial revolution skills mixed with modern shade-tree handyman skills, wilderness first aid, etc may become marketable asset. How to hand sew and tailor shoe repair, medicinal plants, electronics repair, soap making, teaching, entertainment, basic machine repair (bicycles, appliances), etc. There will also be a thriving black market in makeshift and smuggled weapons, smuggled medicines, and forged documents, but surviving long enough in that industry to retire may be problematic.

It goes without saying that being able to bug-out on short notice (as in the first thump of a mortar) is going to be valuable.
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#277637 - 11/20/15 12:41 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078


Quote:
The markets, the banking system and the largest distribution hub in the U.S. is now gone


I don't particularly worry about an HEMP. Its the next 5-10 minutes afterwards. There will be many folks who haven't been killed out right, but will be badly burned and blinded and suffering from multiple bone fractures without any means to kill themselves.

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#277638 - 11/20/15 01:05 AM Re: WW III [Re: Tjin]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: Tjin
I don’t think a world war, like the previous 2 is likely. The world is to interconnected and dependent on each other.


The same thing was said right up until WWII broke out. shocked
-Blast
_________________________
Foraging Texas
Medicine Man Plant Co.
DrMerriwether on YouTube
Radio Call Sign: KI5BOG
*As an Amazon Influencer, I may earn a sales commission on Amazon links in my posts.

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#277640 - 11/20/15 01:52 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Regarding bugging out, where would we, members of this forum, go? Right now, can anyone name a place to go in the event of a war?

Fortunately my mom keeps her ear to the ground so that, if given the word, my family will know where to go.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277641 - 11/20/15 01:56 AM Re: WW III [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
I don't particularly worry about an HEMP. Its the next 5-10 minutes afterwards. There will be many folks who haven't been killed out right, but will be badly burned and blinded and suffering from multiple bone fractures without any means to kill themselves.

I'll be staying away from New York City.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277642 - 11/20/15 01:56 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Regarding bugging out, where would we, members of this forum, go? Right now, can anyone name a place to go in the event of a war?



I am not telling!

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#277643 - 11/20/15 02:04 AM Re: WW III [Re: gonewiththewind]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Montanero
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Regarding bugging out, where would we, members of this forum, go? Right now, can anyone name a place to go in the event of a war?



I am not telling!

You do know of a specific place you and your family can go in the event of WW III?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277644 - 11/20/15 02:17 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
You do know of a specific place you and your family can go in the event of WW III?



Take a left off the B940 on the road from Crail in the darkest Kingdom of Fife.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/20/15 02:23 AM)

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#277645 - 11/20/15 02:30 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1441
This discussion seems a little abstract. If we use WW2 as a reference, we see that there were different kinds of areas: the battle zone, the occupied zone, the not-yet-invaded zone, etc. There are probably many others. Based on years of watching war movies, I'd say your prep for each zone is different. Where do you expect to be?

If you're in a battle zone, then you should probably run. You'll forget about your huge stash of food, fuel, etc. if you want to live. The Syrian refugees would be your model. Grab some money, jewelry, passport, cellphone, and go. Use social media to find out where you should go, how you can get there, where you can stay on the way, etc.

If you're in an occupied zone or a not-yet-invaded zone, Blast's advice would apply more probably. I'm not sure what one should do to prepare for being occupied by enemy forces. Maybe we can look at France, Poland, China, etc. for examples. Get ready to lose your liberty.

Being in a not-yet-invaded zone is great, and much of your life can continue as before -- though with reduced material comfort, food scarcity, etc. But your government might just go nuts with suspicion and imprison entire families without due process. I don't see any preparation that would have helped Americans of Japanese or German descent during WW2, or for that matter the Indians who lived on the outskirts of Alaska. One family gave their farm to their neighbors before they were dragged off to the concentration camp, and the neighbors were decent enough to work the land and give the farm back after the war was over. But this sort of stuff falls under "true challenges of human character" rather than emergency preparation techniques.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head.

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#277646 - 11/20/15 03:40 AM Re: WW III [Re: Bingley]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: Bingley
... I don't see any preparation that would have helped Americans of Japanese or German descent during WW2 ...


Just to be clear on the historical record, almost all Americans by birth, naturalized Americans and resident aliens of Japanese descent were all rounded up from the west coast (but, oddly, not Hawaii) and interred in quite austere and miserable concentration camps. The US Supreme Court allowed it under the Executive's war powers. There was no consideration given to any evidence of an individual Japanese-American's loyalty or risk of disloyalty. It was enough just to be of Japanese ancestry. In contrast, German-Americans were not rounded up, but were evaluated or monitored based on their perceived individual loyalty or lack thereof.

There was never any evidence of Japanese-American spies or saboteurs operating on the west coast. But they did catch German Americans landed as saboteurs by U-boat on our east coast, and of course there was the large pro-Nazi American Bund organization and even the Nazi-funded "Silver Shirts" operating in America right up until Pearl Harbor. Many young Japanese-Americans, including recruits drawn directly from the camps, served with great distinction fighting in Europe.

Today, most experts see this as a result of war hysteria heavily, very heavily, tinged with racism, and a deeply shameful episode in American history. Decades later, there was an official apology and some reparations, but these were far less than the financial value of the homes, farms, businesses and other property Japanese-Americans lost as a result of internment.

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#277649 - 11/20/15 05:05 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Jeanette - I doubt that people will share their favorite "bug-out" location for WWIII. If you decide to get serious about this, plan on making a lot of personal trips. Unless you really check out a location, you will never know how good your choice really is.

There have been some amazing survival stories over the past century. when the A-Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a Japanese man named Eizo Nomura survived. He was only 170-meters from ground zero. OK, the bomb exploded in the air, but he was pretty much directly underneath it. He survived because he worked for a bank, and he happened to go down into the basement. Everything at ground level was fried. But Nomura lived until he was 84 years old.

There were also 8 German Jesuit priests in Hiroshima. They were 8 blocks away from the blast, and they were in a building, but NOT underground. These people survived, and they didn't have any radiation sickness either. I do not know the circumstances of what they were doing, or what kind of building they were in.

Needless to say, many other people died (gruesome). There was quite a lot of luck involved. But you can conclude that being UNDERGROUND in a very strong basement, surrounded by filing cabinets with lots of paper, is actually a positive choice. I think that the movie 'Dr Stangelove' pointed this out - but nobody took the movie lines seriously.

Have fun!
Pete


Edited by Pete (11/20/15 05:06 AM)

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#277650 - 11/20/15 07:32 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 524
Loc: UK
Bingley wrote:

> This discussion seems a little abstract.

I agree. Again Jeanette you have raised a good discussion, but with it so vague as to mean almost anything.
Are we talking about a conventional war? Running and hiding in the woods during WWII in the USA would have just meant you spent years there for nothing.
Are we talking about a nuclear holocaust?
Are we talking about proxie wars? The 'Cold War' wouldn't have seemed so cold if you were in Korea, Vietnam or Afghanistan.

Could we define this a little closer?

qjs

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#277651 - 11/20/15 01:58 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
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Originally Posted By: Pete
Jeanette - I doubt that people will share their favorite "bug-out" location for WWIII.

I would hope not. I need to make something I said clear. Without mentioning where it is, can anyone name a place to go in the event of a war?

When Montanero said, "I'm not telling!" I did not know if he was joking or if he knows of a specific place he and his family can go in the event of WW III. I hope he knows of a specific place where he and his family can go.

Originally Posted By: Pete
If you decide to get serious about this, plan on making a lot of personal trips. Unless you really check out a location, you will never know how good your choice really is.

I'm relying on what I believe is a credible source.

Jeanette Isabelle
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“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277652 - 11/20/15 02:34 PM Re: WW III [Re: quick_joey_small]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Originally Posted By: quick_joey_small
I agree. Again Jeanette you have raised a good discussion, but with it so vague as to mean almost anything.
Are we talking about a conventional war? Running and hiding in the woods during WWII in the USA would have just meant you spent years there for nothing.
Are we talking about a nuclear holocaust?
Are we talking about proxie wars? The 'Cold War' wouldn't have seemed so cold if you were in Korea, Vietnam or Afghanistan.

Could we define this a little closer?

I'm afraid I can't get too specific because of the rules of the forum. I believe there will be a nuclear holocaust but not a complete nuclear holocaust, meaning more than half of the world population will survive. For the sake of discussion, two billion of the world's population will die.

Jeanette Isabelle
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“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277653 - 11/20/15 04:34 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
gonewiththewind Offline
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Registered: 10/14/08
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I was saying it in jest, Jeanette-Isabelle.

That said, I would find a place with a smaller population, access to resources, and some protection provided by terrain (mountains). That is if you know it is coming. If you are not there before it happens, you are probably going to have to stay put.

Of course not living in a likely target area is helpful.

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#277654 - 11/20/15 06:32 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
bws48 Offline
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Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Being somewhat confused about what the scenario is, but assuming some sort of "limited" nuclear attack against us, I suggest reading (if you have not already read), "Alas Babylon" by Pat Frank (a 1959 book). It deals with people in a small Florida town surviving after a nuclear attack and being cut off from the rest of "the world." Is is well thought out and, the problems and solutions, still relevant today.
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#277658 - 11/20/15 08:07 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Bingley Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
[quote=quick_joey_small]For the sake of discussion, two billion of the world's population will die.


Sounds like you'll make a killing going into the funeral business.

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#277659 - 11/20/15 08:13 PM Re: WW III [Re: bws48]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Unfortunately I can't get too specific without getting into the politics and the ideology of the zombies.

Jeanette Isabelle
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“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277660 - 11/21/15 01:52 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Dagny Offline
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Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Washington, DC
You'll want to get some potassium iodide.

The next "World War" -- major powers invading other major powers' territories -- would eventually go nuclear. Doubtful it would be the economic boon to the U.S. that World War II (1939-45) was (the "Great Depression" officially ended in 1943).

Nations with nukes: U.S., Russia, UK, France, China, India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel.

In the early 1980s, at the height of the Cold War nuclear hysteria (witness the 1983 ABC miniseries: "The Day After" and the equally depressing 1983's "Testament"), southwestern Oregon and northwestern California were believed to be the safest places to live in the continental U.S. -- lack of prime targets and favorable prevailing winds.

So if the "winds of war" on a world-wide scale pick up, think I'll be flying out to my home state of Oregon for an extended vacation -- stopping by Costco for a couple years worth of freeze-dried food which I'll store in my sister's weekend home which is near a river with good fishing and trees I can use to craft the anti-zombie barricades that Morgan utilized so effectively on The Walking Dead.

Shelter - water - food - meds - security. Survival priorities never change. Well, unless there are nukes, of course. Here's the link to potassium iodide information from the CDC:

http://emergency.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

.








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#277661 - 11/21/15 02:47 AM Re: WW III [Re: Dagny]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
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Originally Posted By: Dagny
So if the "winds of war" on a world-wide scale pick up, think I'll be flying out to my home state of Oregon for an extended vacation

I notice you are living in a probable target. As soon as I hear something, I will say something.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277662 - 11/21/15 03:10 AM Re: WW III [Re: Dagny]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
You might want to consider leavng early and taking your Element and teardrop. More stuff and a roof just in case.

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#277664 - 11/21/15 03:16 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
"For the sake of discussion, two billion of the world's population will die."

Jeanette. Wow - we have come to 'violent agreement'.
Hahahahaha! I can't believe you said that. You are about right. 2 billion people. IF you go with the WWIII scenario.

The only difference between you and me - maybe - is that your figure is a rough guess. Mine is calculated. But I guess I don't know - not sure where you got your "2 billion casualties" from. But we do come to the same final answer.

I will be driving through a bunch of countries soon ... many are on the "Not Recommended" travel list. Do you want me to send you the locations of any caves?
Do you prefer Your Cave with a basic no-frills Neanderthal design scheme?
Or do you do prefer Your Cave with air conditioning and stereo sound?

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/21/15 03:29 AM)

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#277665 - 11/21/15 04:10 AM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
Seriously? WWIII going nuclear and you think only 2 billion will die. Is that in the direct exchange of weapons, two weeks or two months? I don't have any calculations, but if it goes to full exchange of weapons you had best be in the southern hemisphere. IMO

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#277666 - 11/21/15 02:01 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Pete
Jeanette. Wow - we have come to 'violent agreement'.
Hahahahaha! I can't believe you said that. You are about right. 2 billion people. IF you go with the WWIII scenario.

The only difference between you and me - maybe - is that your figure is a rough guess. Mine is calculated. But I guess I don't know - not sure where you got your "2 billion casualties" from. But we do come to the same final answer.

As I said, Mom keeps her ear to the ground. I also do my research. I did not want to get more specific but two billion is a close number.

Originally Posted By: Pete
I will be driving through a bunch of countries soon ... many are on the "Not Recommended" travel list. Do you want me to send you the locations of any caves?
Do you prefer Your Cave with a basic no-frills Neanderthal design scheme?
Or do you do prefer Your Cave with air conditioning and stereo sound?

There are two schools of thought among experts on this specific topic: One, the United States will be laid to ruin. Two, only New York City will be a burning creator. I believe the evidence points to the second school of thought. Unless we get word to leave America, which could happen, I will stay with my supplies and away from NYC.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277667 - 11/21/15 02:18 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
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In the excellent documentary novel; 'Warday by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka. New York, Washington and San Antonio are the cities that are hit. And it still devastates the US. More die in the famine and plagues that follow it than in the attacks.
Very well researched and readable book.
qjs

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#277668 - 11/21/15 02:42 PM Re: WW III [Re: Russ]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Russ
Seriously? WWIII going nuclear and you think only 2 billion will die. Is that in the direct exchange of weapons, two weeks or two months?

Two billion is a close number. If one does the math (even the most populous nation does not have two billion), it would seem obvious that more than one nation would be hit in WW III. This is a guess but I think WW III will be a short war.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277669 - 11/21/15 02:46 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
If there actually was a WWIII - my guess is that MANY major cities would be destroyed in the USA, Russia and China. And probably a lot of other places. I don't think that any of the superpowers can afford to allow the other guy to "still be standing". If one superpower survives, they would take over the world. But I honestly couldn't tell you what might be destroyed, and what would survive.

If you think about most American towns - people go shopping at WalMart and they buy gas at the local convenience store. Americans are heavily dependent on the distribution systems for groceries and fuel. If those distribution systems go down, the shelves at WalMart will become empty quickly. That's really the practical problem. We benefit from having a highly efficient distribution system ... everybody takes it for granted. But on the positive side - America has a huge amount of fertile land. There are plenty of places to set up homesteads and grow your own food. Lots of choices. I think that Americans have a tremendous advantage with this, compared to China (overpopulated) or Russia (very bad winters).

I wouldn't be confident that the US Government will give any kind of warning about an impending WWIII. If it ever happens, it will come as a surprise. Take a look at 9/11 as an example. When a surprise attack hit the USA, the Government did two things. (1) Respond to the attack by securing specific locations, (2) Try to get important officials to safe locations. And that was it. Any public announcement to Americans will follow at a later date. If you wait for that kind of time delay, you are in the same boat as 300 million other people.

I'm not leaving the USA because of any of these scenarios. WWIII might never happen. My own reasons are personal. But I do think about these scenarios for "contingency planning". In other words, if I choose a location somewhere else ... how secure will it be if there is a WWIII or a global financial disaster? My thoughts are that long term survival basically involves "homesteading". You have to switch to a self-sustaining lifestyle. There's a lot of places people can do this. But these types of skills take a long time to build up, they don't happen overnight.

Pete

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#277670 - 11/21/15 02:55 PM Re: WW III [Re: quick_joey_small]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: quick_joey_small
In the excellent documentary novel; 'Warday by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka. New York, Washington and San Antonio are the cities that are hit. And it still devastates the US. More die in the famine and plagues that follow it than in the attacks.
Very well researched and readable book.
qjs

San Antonio? I wonder why. Anyhow, by only taking out New York City, the zombies will devastate America. This will greatly impact the distribution of food.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277671 - 11/21/15 03:09 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
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Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
[quote=quick_joey_small]
San Antonio? I wonder why. Anyhow, by only taking out New York City, the zombies will devastate America. This will greatly impact the distribution of food.

Jeanette Isabelle


Lackland Air Force base is in San Antonio. It one of USA's most important military sites and home of our intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance departments.
-Blast
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#277672 - 11/21/15 03:24 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Pete
If there actually was a WWIII - my guess is that MANY major cities would be destroyed in the USA, Russia and China. And probably a lot of other places. I don't think that any of the superpowers can afford to allow the other guy to "still be standing". If one superpower survives, they would take over the world. But I honestly couldn't tell you what might be destroyed, and what would survive.

I don't believe we will be hit by a world super power. Instead, I believe zombies with a nuclear bomb will hit us. I also have reason to believe the zombies will be among the two billion who are killed in the war.

Originally Posted By: Pete
If you think about most American towns - people go shopping at WalMart and they buy gas at the local convenience store. Americans are heavily dependent on the distribution systems for groceries and fuel. If those distribution systems go down, the shelves at WalMart will become empty quickly. That's really the practical problem. We benefit from having a highly efficient distribution system ... everybody takes it for granted.

That is why the zombies will attack NYC, to shut down the distribution system.

Originally Posted By: Pete
I wouldn't be confident that the US Government will give any kind of warning about an impending WWIII.

I'm not counting on the U.S. government.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277673 - 11/21/15 05:06 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Bingley Offline
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Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1441
I think you can do a thought experiment without violating the rules of this forum. It won't get into politics, and it focuses on survival, the central topic of the forum.

So it sounds like you're imagining nuclear attacks by non-state actors on major US cities, disrupting the distribution of food, fuel, etc. It sounds like you're not imagining being in a battle zone or in an enemy-occupied territory. Do you imagine your town to be close enough to one of the attack sites that you will have to worry about radiation and refugees? Are you assuming the collapse of government and the breakdown of order, or just an overburdened government with reduced social services, but the local cops are still keeping the peace? How long do you imagine this situation to last?

I think once we have a picture, it's easier to figure out the prep. Otherwise one could easily just get more and more anxious about future possibilities without coming up with anything concrete to improve one's own chances.

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#277678 - 11/21/15 09:43 PM Re: WW III [Re: Bingley]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Bingley
So it sounds like you're imagining nuclear attacks by non-state actors on major US cities, disrupting the distribution of food, fuel, etc. It sounds like you're not imagining being in a battle zone or in an enemy-occupied territory.

I believe the direct attack will only be against New York City. The zombies have a long history of attacking commerce. NYC is the commercial center of the United States.

Originally Posted By: Bingley
Do you imagine your town to be close enough to one of the attack sites that you will have to worry about radiation and refugees?

Ocala, Florida is a long way from NYC. My family is safe from the direct attack.

Originally Posted By: Bingley
Are you assuming the collapse of government and the breakdown of order, or just an overburdened government with reduced social services, but the local cops are still keeping the peace?

As for the government, this is my guess so take it with a grain of salt. The government may be so overwhelmed that martial law may have to be declared.

Originally Posted By: Bingley
How long do you imagine this situation to last?

I don't know but I believe America will survive this. After all, word has gone out to stock up on food and supplies by the end of the summer. The summer ended back in September. Moreover, America would have to be around to protect one of its friends.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277679 - 11/21/15 10:23 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
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Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: TX
Just a note, my list was developed from many discussions with my parents, aunts, and uncles who ranged in age from 8 to mid-20's during WWII (and the Great Depression before the war. Some were too young to know what was going on and didn't understand why their tin toys were taken away during government scrap metal collections. Other fought in the war. The main repeated idea from all of them was there wasn't enough stuff so being able to fix or repurpose stuff was crucial.

Jeanette, it sounds like in your scenario the war made it to our shores. That changes the equations. You should study the writings of people who have/are living in war zones. Here's a good start: http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-prepar...ations_04182015
-Blast


Edited by Blast (11/21/15 10:25 PM)
_________________________
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#277680 - 11/21/15 11:24 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
A documentary novel is a novel - fiction. I'm no expert on nuclear war, but imo once the major powers start throwing nukes, they'll throw a lot of nukes. The Trident SLBM is the MIRV weapon AFLM mentioned on pg. 2 of this thread; it has 12 independently targeted nuclear warheads. There are 24 Trident missiles on an Ohio class submarine giving 288 thermonuclear warheads per submarine. There are 18 active Ohio class submarines, I have no idea how many are operational at sea, but let's say 1/3 of them as a point of reference. Six submarines times 288 warheads is 1728 warheads.

That's a lot of destruction and potentially a lot of radioactive fallout. Then there are the land-based missiles which in a nuclear exchange will be used first (use 'em or lose 'em). Then there are the Russian, Chinese, Pakistani, Indian and Israeli (assuming they exist) nuclear arsenals -- there are a lot of nukes out there. 2 billion dead in the initial days of WWIII going nuclear is reasonable, the death toll will climb from there and it will not discriminate.

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#277684 - 11/22/15 09:04 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
quick_joey_small Offline
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Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 524
Loc: UK
Jeanette wrote:

> San Antonio? I wonder why.

And that's why. It wouldn't be expected. It took out a large mechanised army and made the border insecure.

The Russians are great believers in surprises in war. The most successful trick in military history might be Stalingrad, where they let the germans practically push them into the Volga. The germans thought they had them on the ropes and the russians were running out of troops. In reality the russians were building up enough men to surround the germans with 7 armies. Which they did and destroyed the germans there.
It's even part of their orders in attacks. Plan an attack without mentioning the surprise and you'll be asked why you have left it out.

qjs

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#277685 - 11/22/15 01:43 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
wildman800 Offline
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Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2828
Loc: La-USA
You might read "Warday" by Whitley Striber and Jim Kunnetka. It was published in 1980 and provides great food for thought regarding a post WW III America.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#277687 - 11/22/15 04:39 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
BLAST - I liked your list. There are a lot of good thoughts there.

Back to the OP ...

Everyone can talk about "WWIII" until it becomes Mission Impossible.

I don't think you can worry about things that much. It might never happen. If you try to achieve a self-sustaining lifestyle, you are probably in the best position. This can be done in a lot of places.

And then quit worrying about it.


One thing that is a constructive suggestion. I have discovered that the amount of bureaucracy that is happening with a countries is increasing - longer delays for visas, added expenses, new rules that charge more fees for entry into countries, or immigration procedures. So if you plan to relocate to another country - DO IT SOON !!! This is only going to get worse and worse.

Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised to see local communities in the USA who are increasing the fees for building, or making it more difficult to buy land. It always boils down to MONEY. Everybody wants more money.

Therefore, if you plan to "homestead" anywhere ... it's time to get moving. Don't delay.
Good luck!

cheers,
Pete


Edited by Pete (11/22/15 09:24 PM)

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#277690 - 11/22/15 10:05 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Pete
I don't think you can worry about things that much. It might never happen.

I believe it has already started.

I believe it is best to bug in unless I receive word to move out. I have not received word to move out.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277693 - 11/23/15 06:56 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
benjammin Offline
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Registered: 02/06/04
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If conflict escalates to the level of world war, it probably won't matter whether you stay home or leave. World war, especially in this time, will be virtually boundless, whether conventional or otherwise. Any conflict that allows for egress would, by definition in modern forms of engagement, preclude it from being world war. So what this thread more realistically describes is something less. Survival of world war of realistic contemporary magnitude would be more luck than skill.



Edited by benjammin (11/23/15 06:57 AM)
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
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#277695 - 11/23/15 03:10 PM Re: WW III [Re: benjammin]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
I believe the United States will be involved; more importantly I believe most of the action will take place in the eastern hemisphere as this will mostly affect parts of Asia, Europe and the Middle East. I also believe parts [nations] in what I mentioned will remain relatively unharmed. Of course I could be surprised.

Of course I will keep my ears open as new information is constantly coming in, possibly changing what I stated earlier. Of course I will carefully weigh any new information.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277696 - 11/23/15 04:29 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
I have many relatives who lived in a poor occupied country during WWII. The most sought after items were Kerosene, Matches, Salt, Tobacco, animal protein (eggs, meat, etc) and cooking oil. But life went on, kids attended school when it was available, and people were quick to adapt to new realities. Of course, in that generation, many things were made by hand and every household had essential skill sets (farming, weaving, soap making, etc).
The bottom line is most people just tried to maintain a low profile and survive. Having friends in other towns and villages was essential for getting information, especially when men with guns came looking for you and your family. Information is key to survival, period. Surprises are rarely a good thing during times of war.

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#277697 - 11/23/15 04:47 PM Re: WW III [Re: LED]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: LED
The bottom line is most people just tried to maintain a low profile and survive. Having friends in other towns and villages was essential for getting information, especially when men with guns came looking for you and your family. Information is key to survival, period. Surprises are rarely a good thing during times of war.

I agree. With the Internet and other means, how we get information has changed.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277699 - 11/24/15 02:39 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
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Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Many of you have referred to historical events and for a good reason. We can get an idea of what may happen from knowing what has happened.

Recent research has lead to the Armenian Genocide. I believe what we learn from the Armenian Genocide very much applies here. There were warnings of what was to come. Some heeded those warnings and fled to America. Approximately one and a half million did not heed those warnings and died.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277701 - 11/24/15 04:05 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
benjammin Offline
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As a comparison, what were the limiting factors that prevented hostile activity in WW1 and WW2 from spreading? How does modern combat differ? What would prevent hostile activity from reaching certain areas now?

I believe the major differences to be mobility, precision, and production capabilities. We can move more farther and with much greater effect. There is no logistics barrier anywhere anymore. The quantity and quality of materials and equipment is far superior, and the means with which to both find and target an enemy effectively is nearly indefensible today.
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#277702 - 11/24/15 10:13 AM Re: WW III [Re: benjammin]
Tom_L Offline
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Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Originally Posted By: benjammin
I believe the major differences to be mobility, precision, and production capabilities. We can move more farther and with much greater effect. There is no logistics barrier anywhere anymore. The quantity and quality of materials and equipment is far superior, and the means with which to both find and target an enemy effectively is nearly indefensible today.


Maybe at a first glance, but I'm not so sure. WWII was fought by millions of trained troops equipped with what was state-of-the-art technology at the time. From 1941 to 1944, on the Eastern Front alone the fighting involved some 3 million Germans vs. 6 million Soviet troops at any given time. Major bombing campaigns involved many hundreds, even a thousand aircraft per single raid. Etc. etc. In terms of sheer manpower (and all the logistics to make it work in the field) no war fought by any Western power in the last 30 years comes anywhere close.

Compared to WWI and WWII, modern standing armies in most NATO countries are basically organized and trained to do the work of an expeditionary corps, no more and no less. At this point, no NATO member (the US included) has the numbers, equipment and logistical capabilities to fight a full-scale conventional war, which would clearly require the mobilization of all available national resources.

The last conflict resembling anything like an equal match between two reasonably well trained and modern Western armies was probably the Falklands campaign, which was highly specific on several levels. Iraq in 1991 was not even sided by any means, and in 2003 it was basically a joke. That said, despite the incredible technological gap the Western involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan was ultimately unsuccessful (to put it mildly). So much for the wonders of technology. The lesson is pretty clear, high-tech toys alone don't win wars and never will.

And how about the public perception of war and human costs? Fast forward to the number of casualties. In WWI, the Brits lost almost 60.000 men (KIA, MIA and WIA) in a single day at the Somme. The public barely flinched, it was just another day at the front. According to modern statistics, a French infantryman in WWI had at least a 50% chance of getting killed or severely wounded in combat. But the French army kept on going anyway, the first large-scale mutinies only took place in 1917 and failed to produce any real effect.

These days, the US had a little over 58.000 KIA in Vietnam over a period of 14 years. This number of casualties caused an extreme public outrage and triggered a widespread counterculture movement. In Iraq in Afghanistan, the US has lost about 6.000 KIA since 2001 - even this is considered an atrocious figure by most and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are widely seen as extremely costly political and military blunders. Do we even have the stomach to fight costly, bloody wars any more?

I do hope we never find out. Even though the odds are not looking great with Turkey downing a Russian Su-24 just a few hours ago. But anyway, it's not a pleasant subject to discuss and I doubt WWIII is something that one could prepare for in any rational manner.

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#277704 - 11/24/15 02:35 PM Re: WW III [Re: benjammin]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: benjammin
As a comparison, what were the limiting factors that prevented hostile activity in WW1 and WW2 from spreading? How does modern combat differ? What would prevent hostile activity from reaching certain areas now?


Excellent point, Ben.
-Blast
_________________________
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#277705 - 11/24/15 03:03 PM Re: WW III [Re: benjammin]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: benjammin
As a comparison, what were the limiting factors that prevented hostile activity in WW1 and WW2 from spreading?

I don't think there was a limiting factor. However, united, the Allied Forces stopped Germany and Japan. If the Allied Forces did not stop Germany, we may be speaking German now.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
How does modern combat differ?

We have nuclear weapons and some have the means to take down missiles.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
What would prevent hostile activity from reaching certain areas now?

Israel has a smart, strong defense.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
I believe the major differences to be mobility, precision, and production capabilities.

I don't think mobility has changed much since WW II. Though the zombies will have the means of obtaining nuclear weapons, if they haven't already, most of their weapons are either primitive or improvised.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
We can move more farther and with much greater effect.

With missiles, we can. We also now have drones.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
There is no logistics barrier anywhere anymore.

With the zombies there are but they have their own means of delivering bombs.

Originally Posted By: benjammin
The quantity and quality of materials and equipment is far superior, and the means with which to both find and target an enemy effectively is nearly indefensible today.

Yes and no. Zombies are one of the enemies we face, after all. I believe the zombies are the ones who pose the greatest threat to the United States.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277706 - 11/24/15 03:28 PM Re: WW III [Re: Tom_L]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
So much for the wonders of technology. The lesson is pretty clear, high-tech toys alone don't win wars and never will.

Unless nuclear weapons are involved.

Originally Posted By: Tom_L
Do we even have the stomach to fight costly, bloody wars any more?

For the sake of discussion, I said two Billion would die in WW III. Some have expressed that is a relatively low number. I think you explained very clearly as to why the numbers would not be any higher. After two billion people drop like flies, those who are still alive will want peace no matter the price tag.

Originally Posted By: Tom_L
But anyway, it's not a pleasant subject to discuss and I doubt WWIII is something that one could prepare for in any rational manner.

I believe the only rational move is to stock up, keep your ears open and bug out when you receive credible information to do so.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277707 - 11/24/15 03:39 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
If those 2 billion die from nuclear strikes, there might not be much the surviving players can do to prevent the death toll from climbing. They may stop throwing nukes but the damage will have been done.

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#277708 - 11/24/15 03:44 PM Re: WW III [Re: Russ]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Russ
If those 2 billion die from nuclear strikes, there might not be much the surviving players can do to prevent the death toll from climbing. They may stop throwing nukes but the damage will have been done.

The damage will be done but I believe there will be such an outcry for peace that WW III will be a short war.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#277710 - 11/24/15 06:22 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Originally Posted By: Russ
If those 2 billion die from nuclear strikes, there might not be much the surviving players can do to prevent the death toll from climbing. They may stop throwing nukes but the damage will have been done.

The damage will be done but I believe there will be such an outcry for peace that WW III will be a short war.

Jeanette Isabelle


I'm sure they thought the same thing about WWI and look how long that dragged on. Once a major war starts it would be impossible to control. And who will lead the outcry for peace? The Internet will surely be down with fiber optic cables sabotaged, computer viruses unleased, electric grids destroyed, etc. So how will people, or even governments communicate? Most of the means of communication we take for granted today would not exist for some time. Paraphrasing the movie War Games, the best option is not to play.

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#277712 - 11/24/15 07:04 PM Re: WW III [Re: LED]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: LED
I'm sure they thought the same thing about WWI and look how long that dragged on. Once a major war starts it would be impossible to control. And who will lead the outcry for peace? The Internet will surely be down with fiber optic cables sabotaged, computer viruses unleased, electric grids destroyed, etc. So how will people, or even governments communicate? Most of the means of communication we take for granted today would not exist for some time.

That's a tough one. The people I have been listening to have indicated, in one form or another, there will be communication.

Is it possible for certain forms of communication to go down, all forms of communications to go down temporarily or all forms of communications to go down permanently in certain areas? Yes, it is.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278035 - 12/17/15 06:11 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
For those in the United States one thing I would advise is read the foreign press. There's a situation I'm monitoring, not covered in the American media, ignited by an incident we are all familiar with.

I'm don't know if I'm allowed to mention the situation I'm currently monitoring. Let's just say it looks like a certain world leader will have turkey for dinner.

I have another suggestion. If there is something you wish you had done but for one reason or another you haven't, don't put it off any further. Having done something you really want to do may help boost morale in the time of crisis.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278036 - 12/17/15 06:25 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
I believe NPR had a piece on the situation to which you refer within the last day or so.... Some of our media outlets just can't get beyond the last prezzie debate.
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#278039 - 12/18/15 01:44 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
For those in the United States one thing I would advise is read the foreign press. There's a situation I'm monitoring, not covered in the American media, ignited by an incident we are all familiar with.

I'm don't know if I'm allowed to mention the situation I'm currently monitoring.

I received approval to say this: Google "Russia Turkey" and click on "News."

I was told detailed analysis of the political situation, taking sides and so on is to be avoided.

I've already taken sides. blush In my defense I have taken sides in part because I don't approve of what one of the nations has done.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278040 - 12/18/15 02:00 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Washington, DC
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
For those in the United States one thing I would advise is read the foreign press. There's a situation I'm monitoring, not covered in the American media, ignited by an incident we are all familiar with.

I'm don't know if I'm allowed to mention the situation I'm currently monitoring. Let's just say it looks like a certain world leader will have turkey for dinner.

I have another suggestion. If there is something you wish you had done but for one reason or another you haven't, don't put it off any further. Having done something you really want to do may help boost morale in the time of crisis.

Jeanette Isabelle



I just perused the BBC app on my phone and am not seeing any particular reason to worry about impending doom.

Having lived through the Cold War (what some analysts now refer to as "WWIII") nuclear brinksmanship and working at the U.S. Capitol on 9/11/01, my perspective is to not devote a lot of time to dreading things over which I have no control.

On the other hand, I did notice today that there are only two rolls of toilet paper left in the house so a Costco run is in order....

And I have long coveted that gigantic "All American" chocolate cake in Costco's bakery so perhaps that is the thing I won't put off any longer.

Here's hoping the world gets through the holidays without any large-scale disasters, man-made or otherwise.

:-)


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#278041 - 12/18/15 03:45 AM Re: WW III [Re: Dagny]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
It was so simple when the world was bi-polar, just us and them. Now it's us and them, them, them, them and them too. Even some of the players who didn't make my list have nukes. I'm more concerned with a general economic slowdown and a world recession. The Great Depression ended with WWII.

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#278042 - 12/18/15 04:06 AM Re: WW III [Re: Dagny]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Dagny
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
I have another suggestion. If there is something you wish you had done but for one reason or another you haven't, don't put it off any further. Having done something you really want to do may help boost morale in the time of crisis.


And I have long coveted that gigantic "All American" chocolate cake in Costco's bakery so perhaps that is the thing I won't put off any longer.

Don't allow anything (family, finances) to stop you from getting that chocolate cake.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278044 - 12/18/15 10:01 AM Re: WW III [Re: Dagny]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Originally Posted By: Dagny
Having lived through the Cold War (what some analysts now refer to as "WWIII") nuclear brinksmanship and working at the U.S. Capitol on 9/11/01, my perspective is to not devote a lot of time to dreading things over which I have no control.


Now there's a good nugget of wisdom... All the predictions of doom and gloom aside, don't forget to have a life. smile If things really go south you'll have plenty of opportunity to worry about the state of the world.

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#278117 - 12/21/15 09:15 PM Re: WW III [Re: Tom_L]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 856
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
Originally Posted By: Dagny
Having lived through the Cold War (what some analysts now refer to as "WWIII") nuclear brinksmanship and working at the U.S. Capitol on 9/11/01, my perspective is to not devote a lot of time to dreading things over which I have no control.


Now there's a good nugget of wisdom... All the predictions of doom and gloom aside, don't forget to have a life. smile If things really go south you'll have plenty of opportunity to worry about the state of the world.


If things go really south (nuclear), it's going to be Arizona's and Mexico's problem. There's really nothing much that I can do about it, so I'm not going to worry about it. Except buy chocolate cake :-)
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#278121 - 12/21/15 11:07 PM Re: WW III [Re: Mark_R]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Mark_R
If things go really south (nuclear), it's going to be Arizona's and Mexico's problem. There's really nothing much that I can do about it, so I'm not going to worry about it. Except buy chocolate cake :-)

You and Dagny get the chocolate cake, I'll get the doll I've always wanted and we will leave this world with no regrets.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278133 - 12/22/15 05:53 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
I'm moving to some place where people are more jovial about their own annihilation. I plan to stockpile red wine, dried apricots, and chocolate with almonds.

I did tell you folks to buy a Cave with Dolby stereo. I know the sound systems for Armageddon are a bit pricey, but you could all chip in together.

On a slightly more serious note - I do see more folks who are planning for a global economic downturn. that thinking is becoming "in vogue". take your pick about how big you think the downturn will be ... opinions vary. But an increasing number of people are considering this option.

Jeanette - you really need to get rid of the Home Owners Association. It's just a suggestion. But there's nothing more annoying than an old man telling you to re-plant the geraniums outside your Bomb Shelter. :-)

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#278138 - 12/22/15 02:21 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Pete
I'm moving to some place where people are more jovial about their own annihilation.

I'll pack my doll collection. I want a place with Internet access to continue playing our post apocalyptic role playing game.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278139 - 12/22/15 03:20 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
If I'm not mistaken, once you get to the other side of the apocalypse, internet access is no longer required to play post apocalyptic role playing games. It's an immersive technology for gamers wink but you don't get a reset, lose just once and it's game over.

Bummer...

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#278147 - 12/22/15 04:47 PM Re: WW III [Re: Russ]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Russ
If I'm not mistaken, once you get to the other side of the apocalypse, internet access is no longer required to play post apocalyptic role playing games. It's an immersive technology for gamers wink

In that case I will need the following equipment:

Medical Kits:
Carried:
Guide I

Strapped To Her Back:
Doc Blue's Family Medical Kit
With following added:

Over Her Shoulder:
EPMK, Level 2
With following added:

Nonin 7500 Pulse Oximeter with Pediatric Finger Clip Sensor and 7500 Carrying Case

Attached To Belt:
TMK-IFAK Pouch & Insert, Black with Black with Blue Cross Patch

Around Her Neck:
Neck Lanyard
LED Keychain Flashlight, White Beam
Rescue Howler Whistle

Purse:
Mason Pearson Hairbrush
Grooming Kit Case with the following:

Stainless Steel 9 oz Bottle with D-Ring Cap
MAGLITE 3-Cell D LED Flashlight, Blue
Zippo Classic
Eyeglass Case
Protein Bars, Three
Vitamin B-12 Pills, 100-Count Bottle
VioNex No Rinse Gel, 4 oz.
Kleenex Go Pack
VASELINE
White Cotton Gloves in Ziploc Bag
iPod Nano
Wallet
Passport

Custom Survival/BOB:
Case, 1450NF, Black
Fixed Blade Knife
Tuf-Cloth
Pocket Survival Kit
Note: Spark-Lite replaced with Metal Spark-Lite, Orange, Allen Wrench and extra flint.
Stormproof Match Kit, Orange
Original Candle Lantern, Aluminum with Citronella Candle and Cocoon
Stove with Spare Parts Kit and Funnel
Kettle
Halon 1211 Fire Extinguisher
Food Container with Titanium Spoon
Water Filter
Stainless Steel 40 oz Bottle with D-Ring Cap
Stainless Steel Cup and Lid
Individual Coffee Kits, Four
Vitamin Drink Mix, Seven Packets
Powdered Milk, Eight Packets
Undergarments, One Set, in aLOCSAK Bag, Six
Socks, Pair, in aLOCSAK Bag, Six
Beach Towel
All Weather Blanket, Blue
Emergency Poncho, Clear
Handkerchief in Ziploc Bag
Dermatone Z-Cote Lips'n Face Protection Creme
Sun Screen
Insect Repellent
Leather Work Gloves in aLOCSAK bag
Adhesive Bandages Fabric Strip, 1" x 3"
Nitrile Gloves, Ten Boxes
Personal Antimicrobial Wipes, Box of 100, Five Boxes
Biohazard Waste Bags, Five Boxes
Aura N95 Respirator/Surgical Mask, Ten Boxes
Sharps Container
Alcohol Prep Pads
SOFT-T Wide
Actidose-Aqua Activated Charcoal
Alka-Seltzer
Potassium Iodine, Three
Campsuds in Nalgene Bottle, 4 oz.
Unscented Baby-Mild Castile Liquid Soap, Organic Citrus Conditioning Hair Rinse, Travel Toothbrush and Dental Floss in aLOCSAK bag
Nature de France le Stick deodorant
Silica Gel Packet
Journal and Pen
Public Restroom Survival Kit

I should have gone with a different flashlight.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278148 - 12/22/15 05:12 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
I have a similar Maglite, mine is black with a 3 watt LED (roughly 150 lumen). For the other side since there will be limited to no resupply, something running AA batteries that can use solar to recharge would be a better option.

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#278149 - 12/22/15 05:25 PM Re: WW III [Re: Russ]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Russ
I have a similar Maglite, mine is black with a 3 watt LED (roughly 150 lumen). For the other side since there will be limited to no resupply, something running AA batteries that can use solar to recharge would be a better option.

I've always been a MAG-LITE fan. Mom wanted a bright, compact EDC flashlight for herself so I asked this forum. It was then I began to appreciate the virtues of a quality 18650 flashlight.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278222 - 12/27/15 12:18 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Jeanette

thoughts ...

1. Maglite, oxygen system and pulsoximter - all good ideas.

2. A couple of throw away towels for vomit or diarrhea - very helpful

3. an extra couple of elastic bandages ... super useful

4. gummy vitamins in a bottle ... very helpful

5. MEDS - amoxicillin, doxycycline, ciproflaxin - super useful !
You're not supposed to have them, but who cares. It's WWIII.

6. advil, Tylenol, motrin, aspirin - VERY important to have all of them

7. sunscreen 50 SPF

best of luck,
Pete

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#278225 - 12/27/15 12:49 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Washington, DC
Just ran across this -- a nationwide nuke drill in 1954 with NYC, DC, Chicago highlighted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6zO_gdRQ9I


Another, bigger one in 1955:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_f2al0WMTU


NYC civil defense drill - 1953

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8l_HNRmkPc

1951 -- biggest nuke drill in America to-date

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGt04no33FI


Fortunately, everyone had the benefit of the government's civil defense films, such as this jewel from 1951. Today, little Tony would have the added benefit of a bicycle helmet. And the radiation app on his smartphone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60


.

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#278244 - 12/28/15 02:59 AM Re: WW III [Re: Dagny]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1413
Loc: Cranbrook BC (Finally)
Originally Posted By: Dagny
Just ran across this -- a nationwide nuke drill in 1954 with NYC, DC, Chicago highlighted.


Thanks Dagny. I was born well over a decade and then some years after when some of those videos were first produced. Nonetheless they really take one back to a simpler - and much more, naive time.

Growing up in grade school, we did not do the duck and cover drills. However and perhaps by then, the whole naive and almost propagandist mindset of hiding under a desk or shielding yourself with a blanket or other clothing would protect from a nuclear blast was no longer a valid mindset. Make no mistake though. Even here in Canada, the perceivable threat of nuclear war during my young years was a real and much talked about possibility.

Interestingly enough, this news story Declassified: Here’s where the U.S. planned to nuke if a war with the Soviets broke out appeared on several websites just before Christmas. Even though the planning and targeting was from 45 years ago, it is still a sobering look back of what could have happened.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#278245 - 12/28/15 03:40 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Teslinhiker ...

I think that you are the person who would need a private airplane. Or maybe a cave with separate air supply (filtered) and a Dolby sound system.

I can't imagine that Canada would do too well. Lets imagine the type of scenario that was described in those documents that you mentioned. You know that the Russians had similar plans ... so many major US cities would be hit by very big bombs (old Soviet nuclear attack).

Looking at Canada geographically, it is sandwiched into a location that is undesirable - to say the least. You would have many radiation hot spots directly south of you. And also a huge amount of atmospheric fallout that would circulate on the wind from Russia. Not good. There won't be anything pristine in Canada.

Got any friends with twin-engine airplanes??
Hahahahhaahahahaha

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#278246 - 12/28/15 04:10 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
There is an interesting interview by a former member of the Reagan administration (Former Assistant Treasury Secretary) that is germane to this discussion. The interview is for background but probably not for further discussion in this forum. Paul Craig Roberts interview.

PCR is fairly outspoken and his candid nature may violate the terms of this site. If posting the link above is a concern then the mods can simply delete this post.

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#278249 - 12/28/15 05:04 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
PCR's comments are fairly political. Can't we return to discussions of the perfect blade steel to possess during the coming disaster?
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#278250 - 12/28/15 05:39 PM Re: WW III [Re: hikermor]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
I know not what blade steel is best for World War III, but for World War IV Obsidian is highly recommended (my apologies to Albert Einstein).

Quote:
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein

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#278251 - 12/28/15 07:00 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1413
Loc: Cranbrook BC (Finally)
Originally Posted By: Pete


I think that you are the person who would need a private airplane. Or maybe a cave with separate air supply (filtered) and a Dolby sound system.

I can't imagine that Canada would do too well. Lets imagine the type of scenario that was described in those documents that you mentioned. You know that the Russians had similar plans ... so many major US cities would be hit by very big bombs (old Soviet nuclear attack).

Looking at Canada geographically, it is sandwiched into a location that is undesirable - to say the least. You would have many radiation hot spots directly south of you. And also a huge amount of atmospheric fallout that would circulate on the wind from Russia. Not good. There won't be anything pristine in Canada.


Widespread nuclear threats are not on my radar so I don't think too much at all into any if/or/and related scenarios.

Sorry no access to an aircraft.

In general though, our area is fraught with evac challenges. There are mountain ranges to the immediate north and east, the USA border to the south and the Pacific Ocean to the immediate west. Over the years, there have been a few rare times, especially in winter where all highways except south have been closed for various reasons and we have been cut off from the rest of Canada via highway. Depending on time of year, if there was ever a major evac required here, it would not be pleasant to say the least as on a good day, our population is already straining the limits of our limited and hemmed in highway system.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#278266 - 12/29/15 04:22 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
" know not what blade steel is best for World War III, but for World War IV Obsidian is highly recommended "

well, if you're going to challenge me to get semi-serious about this topic.

what creatures are likely to be surviving after WWIII? On land, I'd say its probably rats and crows. The scavengers and the carrion feeders. Rats are great survivors and will eat almost anything. Crows are pretty smart.

These would be the creatures that you would have to live on. And you probably would do just fine with a good slingshot, a crossbow, or an airgun.

It seems to me that an airgun with moderate power (doesn't require high power) would be more than adequate. And it's a very sensible choice - it could be re-pumped and fired for a long, long time.

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#278269 - 12/29/15 05:54 AM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:

It seems to me that an airgun with moderate power (doesn't require high power) would be more than adequate. And it's a very sensible choice - it could be re-pumped and fired for a long, long time.


I have a Walther LGV in .22 with a Nikon Pro Staff Target EFR 3-9x40 AO Rifle Scope. Shoots around 2 MOA @ 25 meters, which isn't too bad for a springer. wink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ8vz2jAdSk

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#278273 - 12/29/15 01:56 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
LesSnyder Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1637
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
I'll mention a couple of skill sets you inlanders might not be aware of ... how to throw a cast net...even a long handled dip net for blue crabs... and how to snatch schooled fish by casting a large treble hook beyond and ripping it through the school to foul hook them... a couple of hundred packs of 2/O hooks might be a good bartering item... you can't eat gold for a long period of time... couple of 500rd bricks of .22lr a good idea also ... you may want to choose your hobbies wisely...that idea led me to practical shooting 35 year ago... regards

no one made a comment on nuclear winter....

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#278278 - 12/29/15 02:53 PM Re: WW III [Re: Russ]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Russ
I know not what blade steel is best for World War III, but for World War IV Obsidian is highly recommended

Oh goody! Now we can talk about knappable stone,something that I as an archaeologist know something about...Obsidian, or volcanic glass,is fairly rare, but the coming unpleasantness will produce lots of its nuclear equivalent, fused glass. Just avoid any of the stuff that glows in the dark...

Obsidian produces extremely sharp edges, but they are very fragile, so there will be a trade quickly developed in varieties of chert and flint (like Alibates Flint in Texas) that were widely distributed prehistorically and that produce somewhat more durable edges.

When WWIV comes, one does want to be caught knapping....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#278279 - 12/29/15 03:26 PM Re: WW III [Re: hikermor]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
smile I have one obsidian (blackish, opaque, glass-like material) knife with an antler handle held together with some tar like substance -- supposedly what was used back in the days before my grandparents. The blade is short, but I have no doubt it will cut.
Similar to the jpeg below but without the sheath:

Image from eBay. Quite a few available there.

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#278318 - 12/30/15 06:25 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
acropolis5 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/18/06
Posts: 358
" I do not know with what weapons WW III will be fought, but WW IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein

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#278323 - 12/30/15 03:17 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: Pete
well, if you're going to challenge me to get semi-serious about this topic.

I'm taking this seriously and for that reason we need to lighten the mood a bit.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278324 - 12/30/15 03:22 PM Re: WW III [Re: LesSnyder]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Originally Posted By: LesSnyder
you may want to choose your hobbies wisely

I have an unusual hobby that will come in handy. I build and modify first aid kits.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278330 - 12/30/15 06:48 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
I have gone over this thread again. As I have said, "I don't believe WW III will throw the entire civilization back to the Stone Age. A worst-case scenario I foresee is certain places would be uninhabitable."

Originally Posted By: Pete
I will be driving through a bunch of countries soon ... many are on the "Not Recommended" travel list.

As I have said in other threads, the most I can realistically prepare for is three months. If the distribution system cannot be reestablished within that time, we may nave to leave the country. I'm on some much-needed medications. Therefore I can't live off the land. As crazy as it may sound now, when that storm blows through, the safest place to be is in the eye of the storm . . . Israel.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278441 - 01/03/16 04:29 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Jeanette

I respect you for trying to prepare and for also looking after your mother. I do think that the people at your Synagogue might be of some real assistance in a true emergency. The most important thing that we never talk about on this forum - the value of having a support network of people around you.

I would have to think that Florida has some type of emergency plan to set up makeshift hospitals - in the event of a major emergency. That information could be very important. You might want to ask your local authorities what they know about this.

Doctors can be frustrating - they often prescribe only small amounts of meds. If you have a critical need for a certain medication, you really need a supply for 6 months ... or maybe a year. I can't tell you how to go about getting this ... but I think it would be a tremendously helpful if you did.

Take a look at other threads on this web site. there is excellent advice about food for your pantry) that lasts for months. Take a look at British "fruit cake" - that stuff lasts for months and months. It was mailed to British troops in Europe during the world wars. I also recommend you stockpile some concentrated lemon juice ... not frozen. The stuff on the shelves of the supermarket. When the human body goes for a long time with limited food - you start craving fresh fruit. A little lemon juice is a lifesaver.

I will avoid all political comments. But after seeing the crisis that is starting to engulf Saudi Arabia and Iran tonight (al-Nimr execution), it is not hard to imagine a lot more bloodshed in the Middle East in 2016. A major crisis there, and a global economic downturn - these are very plausible possibilities.

Good luck!!!

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#278448 - 01/03/16 04:28 PM Re: WW III [Re: Pete]
LesSnyder Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1637
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
Florida had arguably the best Emergency Management Director when Craig Fugate was here...much of the post Katrina reorganization of FEMA is based on the lessons learned from Andrew and the 2004/2005 hurricane season

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#278652 - 01/08/16 02:31 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
I knew going into a discussion on WW III that information is constantly being updated. This is not completely new information since what I heard earlier seems to confirm what I'm hearing now: Florida is one of the places to be attacked.

The good news is I have the doll I've always wanted. She's now apart of my collection. I can now leave this world with no regrets.

Edit: Mom explained why the earlier information does not confirm what I'm hearing now. She made a valid point and I agree.

Jeanette Isabelle


Edited by Jeanette_Isabelle (01/08/16 09:05 PM)
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278676 - 01/08/16 10:53 PM Re: WW III [Re: LesSnyder]
AKSAR Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1198
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: LesSnyder
Florida had arguably the best Emergency Management Director when Craig Fugate was here...much of the post Katrina reorganization of FEMA is based on the lessons learned from Andrew and the 2004/2005 hurricane season
As most ETS readers are (or should be) aware, Fugate has moved on to become head of FEMA. By most accounts he has made some major, very positive changes in that agency.

For an interesting profile of Fugate, published shortly after he was appointed see In Case of Emergency. For a more recent interview with Fugate, where he outlines his ideas of getting individuals, the private sector, and communities involved in disaster response see We Are All First Responders.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#278678 - 01/09/16 04:18 AM Re: WW III [Re: AKSAR]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7344
Loc: southern Cal
Thank you for those references. I must say that his philosophy is on the right track.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#278681 - 01/09/16 02:11 PM Re: WW III [Re: AKSAR]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
It's good we have someone like him as the head of FEMA; in the event of WW III we may not be able to count on the government because it is so overwhelmed.

Society has changed a lot since WW II. The government may be so overwhelmed because it is trying to keep order that it may not be able to help those in need.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278682 - 01/09/16 03:14 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
.... The government may be so overwhelmed because it is trying to keep order ....

**** deleted before posting ****
In an attempt to keep my comments from going full throttle political, I'll temper words and just say "follow the money".
Empires fall which eventually links to Corruption At The Top Leads To Lawlessness By The People, which is why the government will be overwhelmed.

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#278710 - 01/10/16 01:54 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
Yesterday Mom and I discussed getting a passport in the event we need to leave the country. She has a passport, I don't. I need to get on it this week.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278717 - 01/10/16 07:15 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
You don't need a passport to leave this country. You may need one to get back in. I've walked across both borders many times without needing paperwork of any sort. The northern border especially is quite porous.

But it depends on your intentions. If you are planning on commercial travel to a populated area outside the US, you must have papers.

Where are your papers, comrade?
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#278718 - 01/10/16 07:46 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1441
Just get your passport. While you're at it, travel a bit. There are many lovely countries in the world! It's very easy to get into EU countries and other similar advanced countries if you are American. See some sights, meet some people. If you're concerned about communication, there are plenty of English-speaking countries, and many non-English-speaking countries where the tourist industry workers know enough English to help you meet your basic needs. For example, I went to a Swiss ski resort, and I was embarrassed to discover that the cashier in the restaurant speaks three or four languages, whereas I -- urh, well, let's just say I'm American.

If it's your first passport, it may take several weeks for them to process your application. So get it done ASAP.

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#278720 - 01/10/16 08:40 PM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2458
Loc: Somewhere in Florida
There are still a lot of unknowns. One of the countries Mom and I discussed, if we have to leave America, is Israel. The words I actually understand in Hebrew are few.

We say the Shema in Hebrew every week in synagogue; I'm just reading the words on the screen.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
“Trust me, this is not gonna end well!” — Pleakley, Lilo & Stitch

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#278723 - 01/10/16 09:28 PM Re: WW III [Re: Bingley]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
I was embarrassed to discover that the cashier in the restaurant speaks three or four languages, whereas I -- urh, well, let's just say I'm American.

That's not anything to be embarrassed about here. Depending on what state you live in, you can travel 500 miles and not reach a border. For Europeans, that distance would put you two or three COUNTRIES and languages away.

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#278728 - 01/11/16 04:48 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
MoBOB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
I wouldn't worry about not knowing modern Hebrew if you want to go to Israel. English is a world language and is widely spoken there. You'll do fine. BTW, I love the shema. It is great for centering and focusing.
_________________________
"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

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#278730 - 01/11/16 04:55 AM Re: WW III [Re: benjammin]
MoBOB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
From the U.S. State Department website: "Entry into Canada: Canadian law requires that all persons entering Canada carry both proof of citizenship and proof of identity. A valid U.S. passport, passport card, or NEXUS card satisfies these requirements for U.S. citizens."
_________________________
"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

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#278731 - 01/11/16 05:03 AM Re: WW III [Re: MoBOB]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1413
Loc: Cranbrook BC (Finally)
Conversely, for those who want to flee from the USA into Canada anytime soon, don't plan on driving cross country here as the main Trans Canada highway is closed in northern Ontario and effectively cutting off all vehicular traffic for an unknown amount of time. The only detour is long drive south through the USA.

Google map of area
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#278733 - 01/11/16 05:16 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1852
Loc: MINNESOTA
i have taken the Trans Canada many times and it's packed with trucks.i'll have to check the Minnesota news about traffic coming across the norther part of the state from Canada.

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#278750 - 01/12/16 01:53 AM Re: WW III [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
acropolis5 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/18/06
Posts: 358
JI: Virtually everyone in Israel speaks some version of English. Some Brit, some American and some Aussie/ South African. You walk about near the beach in Tel Aviv and you almost do a double take and think you're in Miami Beach! The major distinction is the groups of young(18-19), khaki clad, off-duty soldiers, who, nevertheless,are sporting ( loaded magazine attached, but not seated ) M-16s in front cross body carry, hand on pistol grip, everywhere you go. It is surprising on the first day and invisible by the third. Not much street crime to speak of, as a result thereof. Also, no feeling of menace apparent. Not even up on the Golan. Tough Jews those Isrealis!

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