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#276645 - 09/15/15 02:22 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: gonewiththewind]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
There is a body of literature on emergency aircraft evacuations, and a quick google search found this - http://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0402.pdf .Studying evacuations in a controlled setting, they concluded that three variables that affect exit time of passengers are (in order) waist size, gender, and age.

While flying is a very safe mode of transport, accidents do happen and one should prepare. I typically carry the most significant stuff on my body, in my pockets or within my flight vest (it has not been used for any purpose in years) If the aisle ahead of me is clogged with large, old passengers squeezing toward the exit (highly likely), I might take the time to scoop up my very small, well equipped backpack.
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#276646 - 09/15/15 02:27 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: gonewiththewind]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
The incident in LV with an airliner having to evacuate on the ground is fairly typical. The problem is fire/smoke inhalation and a quick evacuation is necessary to avoid casualties. The incidents with aircraft impacting the ground at speed off the airfield are mostly not survivable. The so called "miracle in the Andes" was a fluke. The aircraft lost both wings before impacting the ground in such a way that the fuselage remained mostly intact -- very improbable. A few meters difference and the fuselage could have impacted the first peak rather the wing.

But as improbable as surviving that crash was, it's not the same as what happened in Vegas. In the Andes, there was no reason to evacuate after the fuselage stopped sliding. Carry-on bags were mostly/sort-of where they were so any supplies were still available.

Every crash is different but there are many potential similarities. Fire can be a big problem, whether it's an engine fire on take-off right next to those big fuel tanks they call wings, or a brake fire on landing right under those fuel tanks; fire is a major concern. Get out of the aircraft with what is in your pockets, just get out. The aircraft will be surrounded by crash trucks within minutes. If you need to leave your meds behind, just let one of the EMT know what you need. They might not have it on-hand but they should be able to get it. Point being, you'll be outside the aircraft able to ask, rather than inside dead of smoke inhalation and you will know that if anyone is inside, you did your part to get out quickly.

If I'm ever on a trip over the Andes, I'll have my own PLB in the pocket of my winter jacket. That and other suitable winter clothing is the only stuff I'll need.

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#276647 - 09/15/15 03:51 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
In winter, keep your coat on until the plane is at altitude. You might need if you get shucked out of the plane for some takeoff problem. (like the folks at Denver whose plane went off the runway on takeoff in a high crosswind blizzard)

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#276656 - 09/16/15 03:23 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: AKSAR]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Since this is a forum with a focus on survival equipment, survival kits, etc, I will probably be excommunicated for speaking blasphemy in the church of ETS, but here are my thoughts.

The first and overriding priority in a commercial passenger aircraft crash is to get out of the wreckage before it burns (or sinks). ANYTHING that slows you down in this, even for one second, is a bad choice. If grabbing a kit only endangered you, that might be your prerogative. However, any delay on your part, even seconds, endangers everyone else behind you who is trying to exit the aircraft.

Consider a little mental experiment. You are seated in the sixth row from the exit, with five full rows ahead of you. In a typical airliner, that means there are 30 people ahead of you to get out the exit. If each person causes a delay in exiting of only 2 seconds, that means that you have lost a full minute before you can get out.......

Originally Posted By: bws48
I inject insulin 5x per day and I have to admit that I probably, almost certainly, out of sheer instinct, would have grabbed my small travel bag containing my insulin and supplies (it's about the size of a lunch bag).
The overwhelming majority of survivable crashes of airliners happen at takeoff or landing. In nearly all cases that means you are in or very near a city. If you survive the crash and successfully exit the aircraft, you will shortly be in a hospital with all the insulin and other meds you need. On the other hand, if grabbing your small travel bag keeps you from escaping in time, you will shortly be in a morgue, and have no need for your insulin supplies.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
I have not had to evacuate a plane quickly, but I would almost surely grab the small backpack that I stow underneath the seat in front of me.
See comments above.

Originally Posted By: Montanero
Yes I am crazy I guess, but I have gone down in 2 helicopters and 1 airplane (all on military operations).
The OP is about a commercial airliner incident at a major airport. Military operations, helicopter work in remote areas, bush flying in small aircraft, etc all present different problems.

I contend that when flying in an airliner, any crash scenario will almost invariably be at or near a large airport. Help will soon be at hand, and ground survival most likely won't be a big issue. Your overwhelming priority in those cases should be to survive the crash, and to get out of the aircraft quickly.

In other types of flying, needing gear to survive on the ground after the crash might become a bigger possibility. However, even in those cases, getting out of the aircraft alive is still the first priority. My own approach when bush flying is firstly to dress for conditions on the ground, and to carry key items in my pockets. Other survival gear should also be carried, and if the aircraft doesn't burn or sink you can go back in a retrieve it when it seems safe to do so, but EXIT THE AIRCRAFT FIRST.

First and foremost, ALWAYS FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! While other considerations are also important, anything that interferes with escaping the crash (even for a couple of seconds) is counterproductive. The best survival kit in the world does you no good if you are already dead!


I agree…if there is anything you absolutely can't be without, it needs to be on your person and not in a bag! Why take any chance at all of delaying your evacuation or that of others by grabbing a bag from under the seat? Just get the heck out ASAP. ID, wallet, phone, keys, passport, meds etc. should be carried in pockets (cargo pants are perfect for this, and if you need more room there are also travel vests with tons of inconspicuous pockets, though it would be nice if somebody made one in a non-synthetic material given the problems with synthetics and fire).

Another issue re: airplane evacuations is the fact that families/groups often get split up and seated in different parts of the plane…I can see this causing major delays as people try to find their family members and exit together as opposed to just getting themselves out and meeting up once safely evacuated. Does anyone know if this has ever been a problem in a real evacuation?

Finally: what is up with (female) flight attendant uniforms? Tight skirts, pantyhose (see comment about synthetic materials and fire above), and HEELS?! Gah. Doesn't seem like a great way to ensure that the FAs will be in any shape to be of assistance should an emergency occur…at best the skirts and heels are likely to impede movement to some degree, at worst there will be unnecessary burns due to nylon pantyhose melting onto unprotected skin (ouch). A fine example of putting fashion before function if I ever saw one.
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The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276657 - 09/16/15 03:43 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jolt]
Jeanette_Isabelle Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Jolt
Finally: what is up with (female) flight attendant uniforms? Tight skirts, pantyhose (see comment about synthetic materials and fire above)

Better than the polyester uniforms Braniff flight attendants wore.



Jeanette Isabelle
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I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#276659 - 09/16/15 11:59 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Oh, yuck!
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276660 - 09/16/15 12:24 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: hikermor]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: hikermor
[quote=AKSAR]


A video of the exiting of the plane would be most edifying - something from which we could all learn.


I looked for a video of the evacuation and was not able to find a good one, but this article has a good photo of many passengers with bags: http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/09/14/panic-trumps-protocol-in-ba-fire-in-lv/

This article/video seems to indicate that the evacuation was a bit of a sh!t show with some pushing and trampling happening: http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-09/passe...ire-evacuation/

Moral of the story: pick a seat near an exit!! Maybe planes should have more exit doors, given the statistic about survival chances going down significantly once people are more than 5 rows from an exit…seems that in that case we should have doors every 10 rows so nobody is that far from one.
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276663 - 09/16/15 02:42 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jolt]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Thanks for the article links. Those pics firm up my thoughts regarding carry-on bags; unfortunately my thoughts are irrelevant to the people who make decisions. Nonetheless -- not only should size matter but also construction. Here's my first cut at changes to carry-on rules and how bags should be handled/treated during an evacuation.
1. Anything with wheels by definition is too big to carry on the aircraft, else why would it need wheels. Put it with checked bags.
2. One bag no bigger than a standard briefcase or small day pack. (By one bag I mean that if a woman decides to take her purse, that's her one bag.)
3. Carry-on bags brought to the emergency exit will be tossed out the door, no bag should go down the slide as it endangers all those behind. You can retrieve your bag once you're on the tarmac; if your precious laptop computer breaks, that's on you. (Passengers should be told during the safety brief that their bags are safer on the aircraft than they will be if tossed out the door.)
4. I reserve the right to add more restrictions to my list of things no one will implement.

I like the idea of locking down the overhead storage while seatbelt light is on and possibly while the aircraft is in flight.

But that's just my opinion.

Years ago I was on a flight from Guam to LA with a layover in Hawaii. I left the plane and airport, and walked to a nearby restaurant I liked for a nice dinner while the plane was fueled and prepared for the second leg. No carry-on bag to take with, no carry-on bag to leave behind and worry about while I was off the aircraft, just a boarding pass -- nice.

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#276664 - 09/16/15 04:00 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Russ]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Sorry…can't agree with # 2, and not convinced on # 1 either (although I do prefer backpacks to wheeled bags). With the extra cost and hassle of checking bags, not to mention the fact that checked luggage has been known to disappear, I would hate to see any more restrictions on carry-ons. However, the existing rules about size of carry-on bags could be better enforced so people don't bring on bags that won't fit in the available storage space, which is currently a problem. Regarding your thoughts on bags and evacuation, I agree with those wholeheartedly!
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276665 - 09/16/15 04:37 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
My wife and I send our luggage ahead via UPS or FedEx.
It's not convenient at the time but it doesn't cost a lot, has tracking info, and isn't very likely to have stuff removed by the TSA employees.

(we don't travel for business or on short notice so this may not work for others)

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