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#276633 - 09/13/15 03:19 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: hikermor]
Montanero Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1036
Loc: North Carolina
Yeah, that helo water evac was interesting, and in darkness no less!

When an evacuation is needed, there is an emergency. In most emergencies, many (if not most) people will revert to herd behavior and watch for clues in the people around them as to what they need to do. This is where presence of mind and leadership come into play. If you are in that situation, and have not lost your own mind, tell people what they need to do, appear confident, help others stay calm. People will respond and begin to help others. If people stay calm and do not being to step on others in order to take care of themselves then everyone will probably get out OK. There are many cases of just such situations to look at, whether involving aircraft, buildings or ships.

As for what to carry, keep it small, on your body (not hand carried) and preferably in the front. You can control what is on your front better than something protruding out from your back. That is why I like a good size fanny pack. It can be worn diagonally over one shoulder, sitting on your front torso. It can be maneuvered around to the back or side easily if necessary, and can carry the items that will not fit in a pocket.

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#276635 - 09/14/15 08:06 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Montanero]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 824
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Montanero
Yeah, that helo water evac was interesting, and in darkness no less!

When an evacuation is needed, there is an emergency. In most emergencies, many (if not most) people will revert to herd behavior and watch for clues in the people around them as to what they need to do.


We talked about this in a thread a couple of months back. Herd behavior and diffusion of reposability.

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274142&Searchpage=1&Main=19219&Words=%22BBC+article+on+survival+%22&Search=true#Post274142

Originally Posted By: Montanero

As for what to carry, keep it small, on your body (not hand carried) and preferably in the front. You can control what is on your front better than something protruding out from your back. That is why I like a good size fanny pack. It can be worn diagonally over one shoulder, sitting on your front torso. It can be maneuvered around to the back or side easily if necessary, and can carry the items that will not fit in a pocket.


There's also small crossbody pouches or large neck wallets. Something about the size of yesteryears point and shoot camera case or a passport wallet.
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#276636 - 09/14/15 09:02 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
AKSAR Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 979
Loc: Alaska
Since this is a forum with a focus on survival equipment, survival kits, etc, I will probably be excommunicated for speaking blasphemy in the church of ETS, but here are my thoughts.

The first and overriding priority in a commercial passenger aircraft crash is to get out of the wreckage before it burns (or sinks). ANYTHING that slows you down in this, even for one second, is a bad choice. If grabbing a kit only endangered you, that might be your prerogative. However, any delay on your part, even seconds, endangers everyone else behind you who is trying to exit the aircraft.

Consider a little mental experiment. You are seated in the sixth row from the exit, with five full rows ahead of you. In a typical airliner, that means there are 30 people ahead of you to get out the exit. If each person causes a delay in exiting of only 2 seconds, that means that you have lost a full minute before you can get out.......

Originally Posted By: bws48
I inject insulin 5x per day and I have to admit that I probably, almost certainly, out of sheer instinct, would have grabbed my small travel bag containing my insulin and supplies (it's about the size of a lunch bag).
The overwhelming majority of survivable crashes of airliners happen at takeoff or landing. In nearly all cases that means you are in or very near a city. If you survive the crash and successfully exit the aircraft, you will shortly be in a hospital with all the insulin and other meds you need. On the other hand, if grabbing your small travel bag keeps you from escaping in time, you will shortly be in a morgue, and have no need for your insulin supplies.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
I have not had to evacuate a plane quickly, but I would almost surely grab the small backpack that I stow underneath the seat in front of me.
See comments above.

Originally Posted By: Montanero
Yes I am crazy I guess, but I have gone down in 2 helicopters and 1 airplane (all on military operations).
The OP is about a commercial airliner incident at a major airport. Military operations, helicopter work in remote areas, bush flying in small aircraft, etc all present different problems.

I contend that when flying in an airliner, any crash scenario will almost invariably be at or near a large airport. Help will soon be at hand, and ground survival most likely won't be a big issue. Your overwhelming priority in those cases should be to survive the crash, and to get out of the aircraft quickly.

In other types of flying, needing gear to survive on the ground after the crash might become a bigger possibility. However, even in those cases, getting out of the aircraft alive is still the first priority. My own approach when bush flying is firstly to dress for conditions on the ground, and to carry key items in my pockets. Other survival gear should also be carried, and if the aircraft doesn't burn or sink you can go back in a retrieve it when it seems safe to do so, but EXIT THE AIRCRAFT FIRST.

First and foremost, ALWAYS FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! While other considerations are also important, anything that interferes with escaping the crash (even for a couple of seconds) is counterproductive. The best survival kit in the world does you no good if you are already dead!
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#276637 - 09/14/15 09:25 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Montanero Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1036
Loc: North Carolina
My comments were intended to demonstrate why I think about these things all of the time, because I have experienced similar events. I have had a couple of very close calls in commercial aircraft as well.

The fanny pack on the front does not impede your egress in any way, and I have tried it in a simulated emergency evacuation of a commercial airliner.

You are correct that you will most likely be near an airport or city if you go down and survive, and that THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is to get out. Any grabbing of things or placing on the body must take place before it goes down.

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#276638 - 09/14/15 10:09 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: AKSAR]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2687
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
ALWAYS FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!


Well said.

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#276639 - 09/14/15 10:51 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Montanero]
AKSAR Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 979
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Montanero
My comments were intended to demonstrate why I think about these things all of the time, because I have experienced similar events. I have had a couple of very close calls in commercial aircraft as well.

The fanny pack on the front does not impede your egress in any way, and I have tried it in a simulated emergency evacuation of a commercial airliner.

You are correct that you will most likely be near an airport or city if you go down and survive, and that THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is to get out. Any grabbing of things or placing on the body must take place before it goes down.

Montanero, I was just trying to keep things focused on the OP (commercial airliners). No criticism of your post was intended.

Generally I have no issue with small items which are in your pockets or on your person before the crash. Only if the fanny pack were likely to impede your exit would it be an issue. Note that I mentioned that when flying in the bush I always try to dress appropriately for conditions on the ground, and to keep a few critical items (small knife, lighter and match safe, single AAS flashlight, etc) in my pockets.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#276641 - 09/15/15 02:31 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: chaosmagnet]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
I am reminded of Pink Panther's MO on exiting a falling vehicle. Stand at the threshold, and then just before it impacts, step out. Then just walk away.

Seriously, evacuation must be priority one. Get out, and worry about everything else later.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#276642 - 09/15/15 05:59 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Herman30 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 189
Loc: Finland
Trying to remember from the news about commercial planes crashing in remote places where anyone has survived, where one might need a survival kit. I canīt think of any. Lost-tv series scenario is just that, a fictional scenario.

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#276643 - 09/15/15 10:45 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Herman30]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 5760
Loc: southern Cal
Well, here is one - the soccer team that crashed in the Andes with very bad consequences - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster your point is well taken, such crashes are rare. Fortunately, all plane crashes are statistically rare. We should really be talking about the much more common need to exit a mushed up motor vehicle.....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#276644 - 09/15/15 01:00 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Montanero Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1036
Loc: North Carolina
Herman, it has happened, but it is rare. But this is missing the point. Look at the statistics. Where and how do most aircraft crashes happen? As Aksar says, they mostly happen near airports on takeoff or landing, so rescue is quick and effective, right? Not necessarily. Again, as I have traveled extensively all over the world, I rely on my personal experience. There are many airports and even major cities around the world where you can be in rugged and remote terrain within 5 or 10 miles from the airport. Many countries do not have effective rescue organizations, and their hospitals would have difficulty with a mass casualty situation. So what are you trying to survive? Not a trek through the wilderness for days or weeks, living off of the land, but the first few hours until rescue. First aid, shelter, and signaling are very helpful in such situations.

You need to get out of the aircraft to survive, as most do burn. There may be injuries, to yourself or others. My bag does have trauma supplies such as tourniquets, compressed gauze and triangular bandages. They do not take up much room and are primarily focused on self aid, not dealing with a large number of casualties.

Also remember the rule of "3s": 3 minutes without air, 3 hours without shelter, etc. Along with injuries will come shock, and many aircraft incidents occur in bad weather, so shelter would be helpful. Many countries in the developing world will not be able to reach a crash site in rugged terrain for several hours. Winter in the mountains can be deadly in less than a few hours. The people most likely to reach you first are civilians, not professional first responders. You need to be able to take care of yourself for a while, so having some sort of shelter, such as a heat sheet, is useful. Dressing for the weather is a bit more difficult as you are sitting in a climate controlled aircraft for an extended period, it can be very uncomfortable. Carrying the appropriate clothing is not too burdensome. You just need to get it on before the aircraft goes down if possible. In winter travel, I generally have a wool overcoat that I carry. I extends down to my calves and has a collar that can be raised. Wool also does not burn and provides some protection. It makes a good pillow as well.

Yes, we all know that TV and movies are not real, Herman.

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