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#276595 - 09/10/15 05:39 PM <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Remember that British Airways 777 that caught fire at Mccarren about 2 days ago? Apparently the evacuation was delayed by passengers retrieving their carryons and taking selfies. I initially thought there were just a handfull of materialistic twerps who were gumming up everything, but the Guardian video shows it was most almost everybody who grabbed their carryons on the away out.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/se...finished-flying

(Facepalm)I think it's now time to add "most people" onto the hazards of air travel.
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#276596 - 09/10/15 06:24 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Yes, a bunch of folks worried about their personal items, jewelry, and basic necessities. . .and I agree, a significant danger to all
but...
I inject insulin 5x per day and I have to admit that I probably, almost certainly, out of sheer instinct, would have grabbed my small travel bag containing my insulin and supplies (it's about the size of a lunch bag).
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#276597 - 09/10/15 06:24 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Its the folks who keep on their high heels when they jump into the rubber dingies off a sinking ship you need to keep an eye on. wink
Folks will carry on to do 'normal' behaviors in abnormal time critical dangerous emergency situations. Many would have sat there and potentially burnt to death if they were not told to get up, move and evacuate.
Its a well known psychological problem for life threating situation.

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#276600 - 09/10/15 06:46 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Bottom line is that plane was evacuated with no loss of life, just like the "miracle on the Hudson" a few years ago. Where is the evidence for the delays of which you speak? - the footage of people wheeling luggage?

I have not had to evacuate a plane quickly, but I would almost surely grab the small backpack that I stow underneath the seat in front of me. It contains a small FAK and other items that might come in handy. Would I bother to open an overhead compartment? - probably not, but I might consider it if I could do so without delaying anyone's evacuation. Action would depend upon circumstances.

In any case, I would try to expedite the evacuation and assist anyone who was losing their grip....
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#276602 - 09/10/15 06:55 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: bws48]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: bws48
Yes, a bunch of folks worried about their personal items, jewelry, and basic necessities. . .and I agree, a significant danger to all
but...
I inject insulin 5x per day and I have to admit that I probably, almost certainly, out of sheer instinct, would have grabbed my small travel bag containing my insulin and supplies (it's about the size of a lunch bag).


A couple of my friends are also insulin dependent. Their kit is about the size of personal FAK, and is usually on their belt or in a small waist pack. When I travel, there is a pill holder that does not ever leave my person so long as I'm awake and dressed. In it is a couple of Aspirins and a 5 day supply of my perscription medications.
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#276603 - 09/10/15 07:43 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: hikermor]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Bottom line is that plane was evacuated with no loss of life, just like the "miracle on the Hudson" a few years ago. Where is the evidence for the delays of which you speak? - the footage of people wheeling luggage?



You're average purse/murse is about 4-6L, and that won't significantly slow anybody down or block the aisle. The 40-50L rolling luggage, the large travel totes (30L?), the 30-40L backpacks all take some manuvering to get down the aisle in a hurry. Those do slow people down.

The safety requirements for a passenger jet are evacuate everybody in less then 90 seconds from a full plane. The crew accounts note that it took several minutes to evacuate the half empty plane with only one emergency exit out of commision. This speaks very poorly of the passenger body.

Had the fire not been noticed until after the point of no return (the point at which the aircraft does not have enough runway to abort the takeoff), the pilot's only options were to either drive the 70+ ton plane off the end of the runway, and maybe across Paradise Rd or Las Vegas Blvd. Or, take off and circle around while on fire. The aircraft was already upto 90kts on it's take-off roll when the fire was noticed, and a few more seconds would have put it past that point. Either one would have resulted in a much smaller window to evacuate the plane where any delay could prove painfully fatal to the unlucky schmiels farther from the exit.
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#276604 - 09/10/15 07:56 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
They were flying out of Vegas, so gambling may have been a way of life,and no big deal....
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#276606 - 09/11/15 12:19 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Ren Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 522
Loc: Wales, UK

There was an article on the BBC several months ago, with a guy that studies disasters and peoples reactions.

Unfortunately quick search fails to find it.

His conclusions were pretty terrifying, that only something like 15% of people in a disaster situation are actually helping.
10% actually make matters worse, and the rest, 75% do neither.

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#276607 - 09/11/15 04:28 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
I think one of the best sources about how people actually behave in disaster situations is still Amanda Ripley's 2009 book "The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - and Why".

A few panic, a few are clear headed and do well, but most just wait passively for someone to tell them what to do. Since taking bags is what one normally does when getting of a plane, they will take bags (unless someone orders them not to).

One of the best things someone could have done in that situation would be to have yelled as loudly and forcefully and aggressively as possible "YOU! ...LEAVE THE BAGS! ....GET OUT NOW!"


Edited by AKSAR (09/11/15 04:32 AM)
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#276608 - 09/11/15 06:51 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Tjin Offline
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Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
Human behavior is a very complex thing. Both when people are on there own and also in groups. Snapping people out of there routine (getting out the same way the got in, taking there bags with them), cultural/tradition (there have been cases where man let woman go first; which is not very efficient) and group behavior (do whatever everybody is (not) doing).

Snapping people out of this behavior is hard. Especially when people are not trained to do so and have no intention to even try taking note of any safety issue. Even the little safety briefing/video at the start of a flight; how many people actuall listen?

Wonder what recommendation would be done if many people would have died because of people getting there bags; More aggresive communicaty by the flight crew? big fines for people with bags during a emergency? Automatic locking overhead storage bins (with obvious signs it's locked) during take off/landing? No more carry on bags?
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#276609 - 09/11/15 12:57 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Tjin]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Tjin
Automatic locking overhead storage bins (with obvious signs it's locked) during take off/landing? No more carry on bags?

Even if that is done, people will still get their bags under the seat.

Jeanette Isabelle
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#276610 - 09/11/15 02:05 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
As I do travel by commercial air frequently, and I am just the kind of person that thinks that way, I do prepare for what I would do in such an emergency.

My PSK and some supplemental items go in a fanny pack that I can wear and does not interfere with exiting the aircraft through an emergency exit (yes I have practiced it). I supplement the PSK with a Heat Sheet, 550 cord, flashlight and enhanced water purification capability.

I my under seat carry on is usually rain gear that I can put on if time permits before exiting the plane. I will also stuff my pockets with anything I can grab out of my carry on if there is time. When traveling I do tend to wear clothing with lots of pockets just for that purpose.

Yes I am crazy I guess, but I have gone down in 2 helicopters and 1 airplane (all on military operations). I am always thinking in terms of risk assessment and mitigation, even if I am just going to the corner store.

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#276611 - 09/11/15 02:06 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: AKSAR]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: AKSAR

One of the best things someone could have done in that situation would be to have yelled as loudly and forcefully and aggressively as possible "YOU! ...LEAVE THE BAGS! ....GET OUT NOW!"


A very good notion. Would that not have been the function of one, or all, of the crew members? Of course, they well might have been settling into their own routines, having just finished the buckling seat belt pantomime....

When I fly these days, I always wear a vest of many pockets, stuffed full with EDC. That with my small backpack means I am in pretty decent shape.

A video of the exiting of the plane would be most edifying - something from which we could all learn.
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#276612 - 09/11/15 02:10 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Tjin]
Ren Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 522
Loc: Wales, UK
Originally Posted By: Tjin
Automatic locking overhead storage bins (with obvious signs it's locked) during take off/landing? No more carry on bags?


Probably cause some to linger longer trying to bust open the storage.

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#276614 - 09/11/15 03:41 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Ren]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
And the mechanism would never, ever malfunction....
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#276616 - 09/11/15 04:59 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Even if that is done, people will still get their bags under the seat.

Originally Posted By: Ren
Probably cause some to linger longer trying to bust open the storage.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
And the mechanism would never, ever malfunction....

Where's the like icon in this forum?

Jeanette Isabelle
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I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#276617 - 09/11/15 06:40 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Even if that is done, people will still get their bags under the seat.

Originally Posted By: Ren
Probably cause some to linger longer trying to bust open the storage.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
And the mechanism would never, ever malfunction....

Where's the like icon in this forum?

Jeanette Isabelle


I did mend it as sarcastic hyperthetical recommendations...
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#276618 - 09/11/15 08:08 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Tjin]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Back to the OP:

Any time your options and actions are constrained by the actions and presence of a large number of anonymous strangers, you have ample cause for concern.

I hope someone is intensively evaluating this and other similar occurrences with a view to improving the final result. How does one improve passenger awareness and actions in an amergency? There must be lots of strategies....
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#276619 - 09/11/15 09:00 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: hikermor]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
This incident is ammunition for those who want to reduce or eliminate carry-on. I'm in the reduce camp. Purse, small attache', small back-pack -- eliminate overhead bins, carry-on would need to fit under the seat. I'm sure smarter peeps than me are considering options.

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#276620 - 09/11/15 10:20 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Russ]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Originally Posted By: Russ
This incident is ammunition for those who want to reduce or eliminate carry-on. I'm in the reduce camp. Purse, small attache', small back-pack -- eliminate overhead bins, carry-on would need to fit under the seat. I'm sure smarter peeps than me are considering options.


I'll apologize in advance for this mini-rant: no offence to Russ intended---his post just made me think about this. smile

I've been flying internationally and domestically since 1966. What I have noticed is that carry-on luggage has increased in size, volume and importance as the wait times for and probability of loss of, checked baggage has increased to a point where it's "don't check anything you can't do without." Which translates to "any thing you don't need." So all the "I can't be without this" goes into carry-on. This is especially important to folks like me that cannot be without their medications.

Over the years, I've had checked bags go astray far too often.

During my recent (last month) trip to Europe, I carried in my carry-on enough insulin (2 different types, both of which need a cool pack to keep them cool so they don't go bad during an over 20 hour trip, not counting flight delays), needles, syringes, test meter, test strips, alcohol pads, and 5 bottles of prescription meds. Everything also had to have the original prescription containers: I've been challenged on this before both by TSA and local authorities. A fair amount of volume. And it does not include anything else I may feel I need to put in a carry-on, say to account for a difference in weather, e.g. a sweater, rain jacket, and a fresh shirt. And I'm not even considering the folks that also need a laptop etc. for work when they arrive. At least for me (still not counting a laptop) this will not fit under a seat; I've tried.

I'd love to put most of my meds in checked baggage, and only carry on board what I need for the trip (a lot less)! But reasonable caution and the airlines themselves say that this stuff needs to go in carry-on.

Most frequent travelers I know now try to avoid checking bags due to these problems, and travel only with carry-on bags.

IMO, before carry-ons can be banned/reduced, the airlines really need to get serious and solve the problems with checked baggage. Back in the day, you were pretty sure of getting your bag when you got off the plane in a reasonably short period of time. Now, not really.
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#276621 - 09/11/15 10:37 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: bws48]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
No offense taken. My opinions are based on my own personal bias having been stuck behind people trying to put a much too large and heavy bag in overhead storage. Seeing people put apparently fragile packages in the overhead only to have someone else shove a largish piece of luggage into it and oh well, stuff breaks, tempers flare. I just don't want to deal with it any longer. Exceptions can be made for meds and the like, but for the traveler who just wants the convenience of skipping baggage claim while inconveniencing everyone else on the aircraft, I have no sympathy.

Yes, the airlines need to do better with baggage, that's a separate topic.

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#276622 - 09/11/15 10:52 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Russ]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Note that carryon dimensions are programmed to shrink. Maybe we need a subforum entitled "Equipped to survive airline travel."
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#276625 - 09/12/15 04:35 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
The airlines are charging exorbitant fees for checked luggage and then providing wretched service for same. Until that problem is significantly improved the airlines won't be able to reduce carryons without severely angering their core customers.

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#276626 - 09/12/15 12:38 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
ki4buc Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 710
Loc: Augusta, GA
Medications and other important identity documents could be placed into a smaller bag that has a clip on the end, so if you have time, you can grab the bag and clip it to your belt or put it around your wrist if long enough.

If everyone does their job, every single aircraft can be evacuated within 90 seconds with half the exits blocked:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIaovi1JWyY - A380 Emergency Evacuation Test.

Edit: Video from a documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gqWeJGwV_U




Edited by ki4buc (09/12/15 12:40 PM)

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#276627 - 09/12/15 03:56 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: ki4buc]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Originally Posted By: ki4buc
... If everyone does their job ...
Big If. Part of the passenger's job is to not delay at all because if everyone delays just a tiny bit to grab something they are slowing the next guy who slows the guy following him and so forth. If everyone gets out without delaying to grab bags (just the carrying of which slows everything down even more), the guys at the back of the pack have a chance. Just my opinion.

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#276628 - 09/12/15 04:44 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Russ]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
"...Sorry, but my laptop is more important to me than your life."

What a sad indictment of our society these days. We've become entirely materialistic and disconnected.

More and more, it seems we deserve what's coming.
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#276629 - 09/12/15 04:52 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: ki4buc]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Especially if they are wearing a numbered vest, knowingly participating in a timed evacuation drill, and appear to be substantially more vigorous that the last bunch I flew with.

So artificial it is hilarious. It would be far more pertinent to see footage of actual passenger behavior in real crashes.
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#276630 - 09/13/15 02:18 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Delta simulator
http://youtu.be/QVQRVd0i6Wg

767 crash in 1993 (slid off the far end of the runway)
http://youtu.be/KqJ3XQJf9ok
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Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

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#276631 - 09/13/15 10:31 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
Can't find a video of it, but there have been research where volenteers would get a small reward if they get of the plane quicker. Chaos, people climbing over chairs, people getting jammed at the door and a lot slower evacuation...

Evactuation from a plane (but also other things) is a very complicated study. The behavior of people really depends on the design of the aircraft, behavior of other, trained crews and how immediate the danger is felt by people.
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#276632 - 09/13/15 02:56 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Tjin]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Tjin


Evactuation from a plane (but also other things) is a very complicated study. The behavior of people really depends on the design of the aircraft, behavior of other, trained crews and how immediate the danger is felt by people.


How true, and it is good to see air crews receiving realistic training. While I haven't had anywhere the experience of Montanero in actual emergency exiting, my employer has given me several sessions, since I flew frequently on non-scheduled commercial (charter fixed wings and helos). Training was interesting, especially emergency helo departures from an airframe rolled upside down in the water.

If only airlines gave such training to all their passengers - probably not going to happen.

I suspect that in most emergencies, we will be back loading the lifeboats on the Titanic, seeing selfish behavior balanced by considerably more altruism and genuine sacrifice....
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#276633 - 09/13/15 03:19 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: hikermor]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
Yeah, that helo water evac was interesting, and in darkness no less!

When an evacuation is needed, there is an emergency. In most emergencies, many (if not most) people will revert to herd behavior and watch for clues in the people around them as to what they need to do. This is where presence of mind and leadership come into play. If you are in that situation, and have not lost your own mind, tell people what they need to do, appear confident, help others stay calm. People will respond and begin to help others. If people stay calm and do not being to step on others in order to take care of themselves then everyone will probably get out OK. There are many cases of just such situations to look at, whether involving aircraft, buildings or ships.

As for what to carry, keep it small, on your body (not hand carried) and preferably in the front. You can control what is on your front better than something protruding out from your back. That is why I like a good size fanny pack. It can be worn diagonally over one shoulder, sitting on your front torso. It can be maneuvered around to the back or side easily if necessary, and can carry the items that will not fit in a pocket.

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#276635 - 09/14/15 08:06 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: gonewiththewind]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Montanero
Yeah, that helo water evac was interesting, and in darkness no less!

When an evacuation is needed, there is an emergency. In most emergencies, many (if not most) people will revert to herd behavior and watch for clues in the people around them as to what they need to do.


We talked about this in a thread a couple of months back. Herd behavior and diffusion of reposability.

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=274142&Searchpage=1&Main=19219&Words=%22BBC+article+on+survival+%22&Search=true#Post274142

Originally Posted By: Montanero

As for what to carry, keep it small, on your body (not hand carried) and preferably in the front. You can control what is on your front better than something protruding out from your back. That is why I like a good size fanny pack. It can be worn diagonally over one shoulder, sitting on your front torso. It can be maneuvered around to the back or side easily if necessary, and can carry the items that will not fit in a pocket.


There's also small crossbody pouches or large neck wallets. Something about the size of yesteryears point and shoot camera case or a passport wallet.
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Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#276636 - 09/14/15 09:02 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Since this is a forum with a focus on survival equipment, survival kits, etc, I will probably be excommunicated for speaking blasphemy in the church of ETS, but here are my thoughts.

The first and overriding priority in a commercial passenger aircraft crash is to get out of the wreckage before it burns (or sinks). ANYTHING that slows you down in this, even for one second, is a bad choice. If grabbing a kit only endangered you, that might be your prerogative. However, any delay on your part, even seconds, endangers everyone else behind you who is trying to exit the aircraft.

Consider a little mental experiment. You are seated in the sixth row from the exit, with five full rows ahead of you. In a typical airliner, that means there are 30 people ahead of you to get out the exit. If each person causes a delay in exiting of only 2 seconds, that means that you have lost a full minute before you can get out.......

Originally Posted By: bws48
I inject insulin 5x per day and I have to admit that I probably, almost certainly, out of sheer instinct, would have grabbed my small travel bag containing my insulin and supplies (it's about the size of a lunch bag).
The overwhelming majority of survivable crashes of airliners happen at takeoff or landing. In nearly all cases that means you are in or very near a city. If you survive the crash and successfully exit the aircraft, you will shortly be in a hospital with all the insulin and other meds you need. On the other hand, if grabbing your small travel bag keeps you from escaping in time, you will shortly be in a morgue, and have no need for your insulin supplies.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
I have not had to evacuate a plane quickly, but I would almost surely grab the small backpack that I stow underneath the seat in front of me.
See comments above.

Originally Posted By: Montanero
Yes I am crazy I guess, but I have gone down in 2 helicopters and 1 airplane (all on military operations).
The OP is about a commercial airliner incident at a major airport. Military operations, helicopter work in remote areas, bush flying in small aircraft, etc all present different problems.

I contend that when flying in an airliner, any crash scenario will almost invariably be at or near a large airport. Help will soon be at hand, and ground survival most likely won't be a big issue. Your overwhelming priority in those cases should be to survive the crash, and to get out of the aircraft quickly.

In other types of flying, needing gear to survive on the ground after the crash might become a bigger possibility. However, even in those cases, getting out of the aircraft alive is still the first priority. My own approach when bush flying is firstly to dress for conditions on the ground, and to carry key items in my pockets. Other survival gear should also be carried, and if the aircraft doesn't burn or sink you can go back in a retrieve it when it seems safe to do so, but EXIT THE AIRCRAFT FIRST.

First and foremost, ALWAYS FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! While other considerations are also important, anything that interferes with escaping the crash (even for a couple of seconds) is counterproductive. The best survival kit in the world does you no good if you are already dead!
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"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#276637 - 09/14/15 09:25 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
My comments were intended to demonstrate why I think about these things all of the time, because I have experienced similar events. I have had a couple of very close calls in commercial aircraft as well.

The fanny pack on the front does not impede your egress in any way, and I have tried it in a simulated emergency evacuation of a commercial airliner.

You are correct that you will most likely be near an airport or city if you go down and survive, and that THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is to get out. Any grabbing of things or placing on the body must take place before it goes down.

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#276638 - 09/14/15 10:09 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: AKSAR]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
ALWAYS FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE!


Well said.

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#276639 - 09/14/15 10:51 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: gonewiththewind]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Montanero
My comments were intended to demonstrate why I think about these things all of the time, because I have experienced similar events. I have had a couple of very close calls in commercial aircraft as well.

The fanny pack on the front does not impede your egress in any way, and I have tried it in a simulated emergency evacuation of a commercial airliner.

You are correct that you will most likely be near an airport or city if you go down and survive, and that THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is to get out. Any grabbing of things or placing on the body must take place before it goes down.

Montanero, I was just trying to keep things focused on the OP (commercial airliners). No criticism of your post was intended.

Generally I have no issue with small items which are in your pockets or on your person before the crash. Only if the fanny pack were likely to impede your exit would it be an issue. Note that I mentioned that when flying in the bush I always try to dress appropriately for conditions on the ground, and to keep a few critical items (small knife, lighter and match safe, single AAS flashlight, etc) in my pockets.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#276641 - 09/15/15 02:31 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: chaosmagnet]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
I am reminded of Pink Panther's MO on exiting a falling vehicle. Stand at the threshold, and then just before it impacts, step out. Then just walk away.

Seriously, evacuation must be priority one. Get out, and worry about everything else later.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#276642 - 09/15/15 05:59 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Herman30 Offline
Addict

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 495
Loc: Finland
Trying to remember from the news about commercial planes crashing in remote places where anyone has survived, where one might need a survival kit. I can´t think of any. Lost-tv series scenario is just that, a fictional scenario.

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#276643 - 09/15/15 10:45 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Herman30]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Well, here is one - the soccer team that crashed in the Andes with very bad consequences - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster your point is well taken, such crashes are rare. Fortunately, all plane crashes are statistically rare. We should really be talking about the much more common need to exit a mushed up motor vehicle.....
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#276644 - 09/15/15 01:00 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
Herman, it has happened, but it is rare. But this is missing the point. Look at the statistics. Where and how do most aircraft crashes happen? As Aksar says, they mostly happen near airports on takeoff or landing, so rescue is quick and effective, right? Not necessarily. Again, as I have traveled extensively all over the world, I rely on my personal experience. There are many airports and even major cities around the world where you can be in rugged and remote terrain within 5 or 10 miles from the airport. Many countries do not have effective rescue organizations, and their hospitals would have difficulty with a mass casualty situation. So what are you trying to survive? Not a trek through the wilderness for days or weeks, living off of the land, but the first few hours until rescue. First aid, shelter, and signaling are very helpful in such situations.

You need to get out of the aircraft to survive, as most do burn. There may be injuries, to yourself or others. My bag does have trauma supplies such as tourniquets, compressed gauze and triangular bandages. They do not take up much room and are primarily focused on self aid, not dealing with a large number of casualties.

Also remember the rule of "3s": 3 minutes without air, 3 hours without shelter, etc. Along with injuries will come shock, and many aircraft incidents occur in bad weather, so shelter would be helpful. Many countries in the developing world will not be able to reach a crash site in rugged terrain for several hours. Winter in the mountains can be deadly in less than a few hours. The people most likely to reach you first are civilians, not professional first responders. You need to be able to take care of yourself for a while, so having some sort of shelter, such as a heat sheet, is useful. Dressing for the weather is a bit more difficult as you are sitting in a climate controlled aircraft for an extended period, it can be very uncomfortable. Carrying the appropriate clothing is not too burdensome. You just need to get it on before the aircraft goes down if possible. In winter travel, I generally have a wool overcoat that I carry. I extends down to my calves and has a collar that can be raised. Wool also does not burn and provides some protection. It makes a good pillow as well.

Yes, we all know that TV and movies are not real, Herman.

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#276645 - 09/15/15 02:22 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: gonewiththewind]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
There is a body of literature on emergency aircraft evacuations, and a quick google search found this - http://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/2000s/media/0402.pdf .Studying evacuations in a controlled setting, they concluded that three variables that affect exit time of passengers are (in order) waist size, gender, and age.

While flying is a very safe mode of transport, accidents do happen and one should prepare. I typically carry the most significant stuff on my body, in my pockets or within my flight vest (it has not been used for any purpose in years) If the aisle ahead of me is clogged with large, old passengers squeezing toward the exit (highly likely), I might take the time to scoop up my very small, well equipped backpack.
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#276646 - 09/15/15 02:27 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: gonewiththewind]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
The incident in LV with an airliner having to evacuate on the ground is fairly typical. The problem is fire/smoke inhalation and a quick evacuation is necessary to avoid casualties. The incidents with aircraft impacting the ground at speed off the airfield are mostly not survivable. The so called "miracle in the Andes" was a fluke. The aircraft lost both wings before impacting the ground in such a way that the fuselage remained mostly intact -- very improbable. A few meters difference and the fuselage could have impacted the first peak rather the wing.

But as improbable as surviving that crash was, it's not the same as what happened in Vegas. In the Andes, there was no reason to evacuate after the fuselage stopped sliding. Carry-on bags were mostly/sort-of where they were so any supplies were still available.

Every crash is different but there are many potential similarities. Fire can be a big problem, whether it's an engine fire on take-off right next to those big fuel tanks they call wings, or a brake fire on landing right under those fuel tanks; fire is a major concern. Get out of the aircraft with what is in your pockets, just get out. The aircraft will be surrounded by crash trucks within minutes. If you need to leave your meds behind, just let one of the EMT know what you need. They might not have it on-hand but they should be able to get it. Point being, you'll be outside the aircraft able to ask, rather than inside dead of smoke inhalation and you will know that if anyone is inside, you did your part to get out quickly.

If I'm ever on a trip over the Andes, I'll have my own PLB in the pocket of my winter jacket. That and other suitable winter clothing is the only stuff I'll need.

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#276647 - 09/15/15 03:51 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
In winter, keep your coat on until the plane is at altitude. You might need if you get shucked out of the plane for some takeoff problem. (like the folks at Denver whose plane went off the runway on takeoff in a high crosswind blizzard)

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#276656 - 09/16/15 03:23 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: AKSAR]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Since this is a forum with a focus on survival equipment, survival kits, etc, I will probably be excommunicated for speaking blasphemy in the church of ETS, but here are my thoughts.

The first and overriding priority in a commercial passenger aircraft crash is to get out of the wreckage before it burns (or sinks). ANYTHING that slows you down in this, even for one second, is a bad choice. If grabbing a kit only endangered you, that might be your prerogative. However, any delay on your part, even seconds, endangers everyone else behind you who is trying to exit the aircraft.

Consider a little mental experiment. You are seated in the sixth row from the exit, with five full rows ahead of you. In a typical airliner, that means there are 30 people ahead of you to get out the exit. If each person causes a delay in exiting of only 2 seconds, that means that you have lost a full minute before you can get out.......

Originally Posted By: bws48
I inject insulin 5x per day and I have to admit that I probably, almost certainly, out of sheer instinct, would have grabbed my small travel bag containing my insulin and supplies (it's about the size of a lunch bag).
The overwhelming majority of survivable crashes of airliners happen at takeoff or landing. In nearly all cases that means you are in or very near a city. If you survive the crash and successfully exit the aircraft, you will shortly be in a hospital with all the insulin and other meds you need. On the other hand, if grabbing your small travel bag keeps you from escaping in time, you will shortly be in a morgue, and have no need for your insulin supplies.

Originally Posted By: hikermor
I have not had to evacuate a plane quickly, but I would almost surely grab the small backpack that I stow underneath the seat in front of me.
See comments above.

Originally Posted By: Montanero
Yes I am crazy I guess, but I have gone down in 2 helicopters and 1 airplane (all on military operations).
The OP is about a commercial airliner incident at a major airport. Military operations, helicopter work in remote areas, bush flying in small aircraft, etc all present different problems.

I contend that when flying in an airliner, any crash scenario will almost invariably be at or near a large airport. Help will soon be at hand, and ground survival most likely won't be a big issue. Your overwhelming priority in those cases should be to survive the crash, and to get out of the aircraft quickly.

In other types of flying, needing gear to survive on the ground after the crash might become a bigger possibility. However, even in those cases, getting out of the aircraft alive is still the first priority. My own approach when bush flying is firstly to dress for conditions on the ground, and to carry key items in my pockets. Other survival gear should also be carried, and if the aircraft doesn't burn or sink you can go back in a retrieve it when it seems safe to do so, but EXIT THE AIRCRAFT FIRST.

First and foremost, ALWAYS FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! While other considerations are also important, anything that interferes with escaping the crash (even for a couple of seconds) is counterproductive. The best survival kit in the world does you no good if you are already dead!


I agree…if there is anything you absolutely can't be without, it needs to be on your person and not in a bag! Why take any chance at all of delaying your evacuation or that of others by grabbing a bag from under the seat? Just get the heck out ASAP. ID, wallet, phone, keys, passport, meds etc. should be carried in pockets (cargo pants are perfect for this, and if you need more room there are also travel vests with tons of inconspicuous pockets, though it would be nice if somebody made one in a non-synthetic material given the problems with synthetics and fire).

Another issue re: airplane evacuations is the fact that families/groups often get split up and seated in different parts of the plane…I can see this causing major delays as people try to find their family members and exit together as opposed to just getting themselves out and meeting up once safely evacuated. Does anyone know if this has ever been a problem in a real evacuation?

Finally: what is up with (female) flight attendant uniforms? Tight skirts, pantyhose (see comment about synthetic materials and fire above), and HEELS?! Gah. Doesn't seem like a great way to ensure that the FAs will be in any shape to be of assistance should an emergency occur…at best the skirts and heels are likely to impede movement to some degree, at worst there will be unnecessary burns due to nylon pantyhose melting onto unprotected skin (ouch). A fine example of putting fashion before function if I ever saw one.
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276657 - 09/16/15 03:43 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jolt]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Jolt
Finally: what is up with (female) flight attendant uniforms? Tight skirts, pantyhose (see comment about synthetic materials and fire above)

Better than the polyester uniforms Braniff flight attendants wore.



Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#276659 - 09/16/15 11:59 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Oh, yuck!
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276660 - 09/16/15 12:24 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: hikermor]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: hikermor
[quote=AKSAR]


A video of the exiting of the plane would be most edifying - something from which we could all learn.


I looked for a video of the evacuation and was not able to find a good one, but this article has a good photo of many passengers with bags: http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/09/14/panic-trumps-protocol-in-ba-fire-in-lv/

This article/video seems to indicate that the evacuation was a bit of a sh!t show with some pushing and trampling happening: http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-09/passe...ire-evacuation/

Moral of the story: pick a seat near an exit!! Maybe planes should have more exit doors, given the statistic about survival chances going down significantly once people are more than 5 rows from an exit…seems that in that case we should have doors every 10 rows so nobody is that far from one.
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276663 - 09/16/15 02:42 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jolt]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Thanks for the article links. Those pics firm up my thoughts regarding carry-on bags; unfortunately my thoughts are irrelevant to the people who make decisions. Nonetheless -- not only should size matter but also construction. Here's my first cut at changes to carry-on rules and how bags should be handled/treated during an evacuation.
1. Anything with wheels by definition is too big to carry on the aircraft, else why would it need wheels. Put it with checked bags.
2. One bag no bigger than a standard briefcase or small day pack. (By one bag I mean that if a woman decides to take her purse, that's her one bag.)
3. Carry-on bags brought to the emergency exit will be tossed out the door, no bag should go down the slide as it endangers all those behind. You can retrieve your bag once you're on the tarmac; if your precious laptop computer breaks, that's on you. (Passengers should be told during the safety brief that their bags are safer on the aircraft than they will be if tossed out the door.)
4. I reserve the right to add more restrictions to my list of things no one will implement.

I like the idea of locking down the overhead storage while seatbelt light is on and possibly while the aircraft is in flight.

But that's just my opinion.

Years ago I was on a flight from Guam to LA with a layover in Hawaii. I left the plane and airport, and walked to a nearby restaurant I liked for a nice dinner while the plane was fueled and prepared for the second leg. No carry-on bag to take with, no carry-on bag to leave behind and worry about while I was off the aircraft, just a boarding pass -- nice.

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#276664 - 09/16/15 04:00 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Russ]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Sorry…can't agree with # 2, and not convinced on # 1 either (although I do prefer backpacks to wheeled bags). With the extra cost and hassle of checking bags, not to mention the fact that checked luggage has been known to disappear, I would hate to see any more restrictions on carry-ons. However, the existing rules about size of carry-on bags could be better enforced so people don't bring on bags that won't fit in the available storage space, which is currently a problem. Regarding your thoughts on bags and evacuation, I agree with those wholeheartedly!
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276665 - 09/16/15 04:37 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
My wife and I send our luggage ahead via UPS or FedEx.
It's not convenient at the time but it doesn't cost a lot, has tracking info, and isn't very likely to have stuff removed by the TSA employees.

(we don't travel for business or on short notice so this may not work for others)

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#276667 - 09/16/15 05:22 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: unimogbert]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I have shipped luggage ahead and it has its advantages, but more and more, I explore alternative means of transportation, which ironically enough, are not as safe as commercial air. There are just too many hassles in cording on board the flying cattle cars that now get us from A to B.

And yes, I am a certified geezer who can remember when flying was fun, eagerly anticipated.....
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Geezer in Chief

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#276668 - 09/16/15 05:48 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jolt]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Jolt
Oh, yuck!

During this time, fashion designers designed Braniff flight attendant uniforms.

Back to the point, what they were now is safer than the polyester they wore then.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#276669 - 09/16/15 07:39 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Doug_Ritter Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2197
On the run so need to make this quick. As some of you know, I am a member of the SAE S9 Cabin Safety committee. We write the standards which are used by the FAA and airlines to develop
e the cabin briefings and everything else dealing with safety and safety equipment in the cabin except for seats. The recommendation is for FAs to aggressively remind pax to not take anything with them in an evac. As this episode shows, people don't listen well. :-( This evac, along with others will be topic of conversation at the next S9 meeting, you can be sure of it.

A lot of really bright folks have tried to come up with solutions, FAA CAMI in Oklahoma City has run hundreds, if not thousands, of evacs using their cabin simulator. They just dedicated a new one which will allow even better simulations. We have learned a lot from them and from live evacs. It is much better today and it used to be. But, ultimately, the problem is human nature. Trying to circumvent human nature is one of the toughest challengers we face in aviation safety.

Non-starters are auto-locking bins. Too much weight, too many moving parts, too much to go wrong. Pax will revolt if unable to take their carry-on. As noted, those of us who travel for a living will not pack anything we can't do without. For me that otfen means a suit and two days of clothing, etc. I can't even keep track of how often my luggage doesn't arrive when I do, and often take a day or more to arrive. Twice in the last 5 years it never showed up...ever!

When they recently tried to reduce the size of carry-on bags, Congress was inundated with calls, emails and letters. Not likely to happen.

The certification 90-second evac test in the dark is a standard, it measures a baseline, nothing more, it isn't reality. And, it is a lot tougher than it looks to meet it. So many people end up injured in these tests, a lot of folks want to kill it and just use computer simulations. So far the FAA has said no. Some real evacs are quicker, some are slower, but it is extremely rare in contemporary history to take so long that anyone dies.

Gotta run, just returned home on a flight late last night, have to finish some documentation and pack for a 5:00 AM flight tomorrow. Be days before I can check back in.

Carry on.... (baaaad pun)
_________________________
Doug Ritter
Editor
Equipped To Survive®
Chairman & Executive Director
Equipped To Survive Foundation
www.KnifeRights.org
www.DougRitter.com

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#276670 - 09/16/15 07:57 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Doug_Ritter]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Doug_Ritter
it is extremely rare in contemporary history to take so long that anyone dies.



Carry on.... (baaaad pun)


So what are the odds? We face lots of hazards daily, and dying in a slow evac probably isn't that high on the list. I'll bet one is more likely to die driving to the airport.....

Actually, an exquisitely atrocious pun. Wonderful!
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Geezer in Chief

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#276671 - 09/16/15 08:19 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Russ

1. Anything with wheels by definition is too big to carry on the aircraft, else why would it need wheels. Put it with checked bags.

2. One bag no bigger than a standard briefcase or small day pack. (By one bag I mean that if a woman decides to take her purse, that's her one bag.)


Been there, doing that, hate it. Briefcase + boarding (gym) bag. The boarding bag could be checked if push comes to shove, but the briefcase can't for obvious reasons. Add the weight of your irreplacable personal effects, food (expensive or unavailable in flight), water (expensive or unsafe in flight), and if you're traveling on business, employer issued laptop and paperwork. Not lightweight by any measure. Being able to roll the flipping thing the 3/4 mile between the gate and the taxi/shuttle stands becomes very attractive.

The airlines are doing their best to discourage checking bags. Between very limited liability (we told you not to pack anything delicate or valuable) and horrendous checked baggage service (40-50 minute delay between deplaning and the first bag onto the carousel, and no security).

Originally Posted By: Russ

3. Carry-on bags brought to the emergency exit will be tossed out the door, no bag should go down the slide as it endangers all those behind. You can retrieve your bag once you're on the tarmac; if your precious laptop computer breaks, that's on you. (Passengers should be told during the safety brief that their bags are safer on the aircraft than they will be if tossed out the door.)


Best phrased as "Due to the hazard of unattended luggage at the base of the evacuation slide, any luggage that is brough to the evacuation slide will be dealt with at the discrection of the FA."

If the rampers can drop a $4K+ musical instrument out of an airplane during routine loading, the FA can surly drop less valuable luggage out of the side of an airplane during an emergency

(near the bottom of the page)
http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/faq_text/travel.html
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#276672 - 09/16/15 09:36 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: AKSAR]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
...
The first and overriding priority in a commercial passenger aircraft crash is to get out of the wreckage before it burns (or sinks). ANYTHING that slows you down in this, even for one second, is a bad choice. If grabbing a kit only endangered you, that might be your prerogative. However, any delay on your part, even seconds, endangers everyone else behind you who is trying to exit the aircraft.
...
First and foremost, ALWAYS FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE! While other considerations are also important, anything that interferes with escaping the crash (even for a couple of seconds) is counterproductive. The best survival kit in the world does you no good if you are already dead!


Excellent post! I totally agree with your reasoning and conclusions.

I've had a few mildly unpleasant experiences on helos and small commuter planes. Nothing bad actually happened, but they counted as close calls. So I'm a little bit neurotic about flight safety, which causes me to generally do the following:

- I try to eyeball the aircraft before and during boarding, looking for things like obvious leaks, damage, ice buildup, etc. [A passenger on the Hawaiian flight that lost a major section of the upper fuselage actually noticed a crack in the fuselage while boarding, but she boarded anyway!]

- I prefer to wear natural fiber clothing with long sleeves and sturdy shoes, whenever possible. This offers some protection from flash fire and plastic material melting into your skin.

- I try to book an exit aisle or nearby seat, over the wings or toward the rear. Statistically, experts say it makes little difference where in the A/C your seat is, but the wing area is the structurally strongest part, and in the rear, you'll probably at least live a small fraction of a second longer than those up front. ;-)

- I pay attention to the safety briefing and carefully read the safety card, so I know exactly how to open the specific emergency exits on that aircraft.

- I jot the number of rows to the exits ahead and behind on my wrist.

- I try to make some assessment of my fellow passengers as I walk down the aisle. I'm generally trying to guess who might be a problem, or an asset, in an emergency; anyone who appears ill, ill at ease, intoxicated, likely to have mobility issues, or is already uncooperative with cabin crew instructions; and other potential issues in an emergency or evacuation.

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#276673 - 09/16/15 11:18 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Originally Posted By: Jolt
Oh, yuck!

During this time, fashion designers designed Braniff flight attendant uniforms.

Back to the point, what they were now is safer than the polyester they wore then.

Jeanette Isabelle


Here are a couple of articles I found on cabin crew uniforms and safety…so why do we still see such impractical getups? http://flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_mar_apr99.pdf
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/commerce-circulars-ac0136-1515.htm
_________________________
The rhythm is gonna get you...and if it's v-tach or v-fib, the results will be shocking!

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#276677 - 09/17/15 12:16 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jolt]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Jolt
Here are a couple of articles I found on cabin crew uniforms and safety…so why do we still see such impractical getups?

Still? I don't know. The photo I posted is of flight attendants in uniforms introduced in, I believe, 1966.

Jeanette Isabelle
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I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#276683 - 09/17/15 11:25 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Originally Posted By: Jolt
Here are a couple of articles I found on cabin crew uniforms and safety…so why do we still see such impractical getups?

Still? I don't know. The photo I posted is of flight attendants in uniforms introduced in, I believe, 1966.

Jeanette Isabelle


I know those were old photos…I was talking about the continued prevalence of things like pencil skirts, heels and pantyhose in flight attendant uniforms. What would be wrong with having all flight attendants wear pants and flat lace-up shoes, and just having the tops styled differently for men and women (and the men wear ties while the women wear scarves)?
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#276684 - 09/17/15 12:07 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
How about Nomex flight suits? It would work for me.


Edited by Montanero (09/17/15 01:17 PM)

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#276686 - 09/17/15 01:47 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Jolt]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Jolt


I know those were old photos…I was talking about the continued prevalence of things like pencil skirts, heels and pantyhose in flight attendant uniforms. What would be wrong with having all flight attendants wear pants and flat lace-up shoes, and just having the tops styled differently for men and women (and the men wear ties while the women wear scarves)?


At least this is an improvement (depending upon your perspective) from the old days when flight attendant (stewardess) job requirements were female, attractive, and single - no males need apply. Clothing was often skimpy.

If you want functional clothing, ditch both ties and scarves. They will just add to the burn hazard. I think I have seen cabin personnel in slacks and pants lately, which makes a lot of sense.
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#276700 - 09/19/15 09:47 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: hikermor]
nursemike Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
Inside the box thinking, people. The fundamental issue with plane ingress and egress is the bottleneck at the hatch. The early aviators were clear about the need for rapid emergency dismount: note the lack of barriers on the Wright Flier:


We have simply gotten too far from the basics. An alternative would be a fuselage-length gull-wing door:


This is not a human behavior problem, this is an engineering problem.
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#276758 - 09/22/15 05:41 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: gonewiththewind]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1576
Originally Posted By: Montanero
My bag does have trauma supplies such as tourniquets, compressed gauze and triangular bandages. They do not take up much room and are primarily focused on self aid, not dealing with a large number of casualties.


Your post made me think that I should improve my "in flight" kit, which right now is pretty minimal. I didn't think I could carry all that much useful stuff on me especially given TSA restrictions. So I was expecting to die in most situations of air disaster. I'm curious as to what you carry on the plane. This question is open to everyone.

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#276759 - 09/22/15 09:34 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
You might have a problem with a scalpel and anything sharp, but I know of no other significant restrictions that would apply to a reasonable first aid kit. I have flown with my standard kit for years - mostly slanted toward traumatic injuries and CPR
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#276760 - 09/22/15 09:57 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Bingley]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Bingley
Your post made me think that I should improve my "in flight" kit, which right now is pretty minimal. I didn't think I could carry all that much useful stuff on me especially given TSA restrictions. So I was expecting to die in most situations of air disaster. I'm curious as to what you carry on the plane. This question is open to everyone.


*On body - Watch, wallet, keys, glasses, cell phone, wedding band, pill FOB, pocket light (Fenix E01 and/or LRI Photon Freedom Covert), BP pen, notebook.

*General - soft shackle (bracelet size) wound around jumbo bandanna, Hand santizer, Cell phone backup battery, Headphones, Sun glasses, Water bottle, Book, day planner, Food (sandwich, crackers/granola bar, cookie),Travel pillow(?) & earplugs, hygiene kit (toothbrush, toothpaste, deoderant, comb).

*Basic FAK (also in bag) with flight specific medications (various bandaids and wipes, pepto, gas-x, dramamine (Dimenhydrinate not Meclizine), ibuprofin, tums, moleskin)

*Travel emergencies kit (also in bag)- (sewing kit w/small scissors, glasses repair kit, duct tape, whistle, chlorine dioxide (aquamira) tablets, 550 cord, toothbrush, toothpaste, deoderant, comb)
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Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

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#276763 - 09/22/15 10:25 PM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
What I described is what I carry on the plane. I carry trauma shears for cutting, they are allowed.

I do not carry a large amount of these things, just enough to care for myself. I can't carry enough for an airplane full of people.

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#276765 - 09/23/15 01:33 AM Re: <semi-rant> Dying of the dumbs [Re: Mark_R]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1576
Alright, looking at your lists, I realized mine isn't that bad. I always have:

-- two light sources, plus one additional battery
-- small pry bar
-- whistle
-- charged cell phone battery (backup)
-- compass
-- seat belt cutter
-- Leatherman (w/o blade)
-- CPR mask
-- bandaids
-- meds
-- food bar
-- water (I get ripped off every time I fly)

Seems like I could easily add some stuff from Montanero's list. But the problem is that I carry that stuff in my carry on bag, not on my body. Maybe I should look into carrying it on my man bag or wearing a Scotte Vest.

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