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#276524 - 09/03/15 04:01 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
TeacherRO Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
A good reason to carry chemical heat packets. Warm and nicely non firestarting

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#276540 - 09/04/15 01:09 AM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
In a survival situation in cold night I wouldn't even think about sleeping for the first night at all. Rather having a good snack and feeding the fire all night, maybe half-asleep, but conscious.

For the shelter warmth, if it's not sealed 100% I don't see a problem burning a stove, candle or even fire inside.

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#276542 - 09/04/15 01:35 AM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Alex]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 517
"For the shelter warmth, if it's not sealed 100% I don't see a problem burning a stove, candle or even fire inside."

Respectfully, I don't agree. There's a myth that CO is sufficiently heavier than air and will vent out of openings in the tent. In fact, carbon monoxide is slightly lighter than air and diffuses evenly throughout the structure. You're seriously at risk of dangerously increasing the CO to O2 ratio, even in what you think is a vented tent. PLEASE reconsider.

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#276543 - 09/04/15 02:12 AM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: NAro]
EMPnotImplyNuclear Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 382
Originally Posted By: NAro
"For the shelter warmth, if it's not sealed 100% I don't see a problem burning a stove, candle or even fire inside."

Respectfully, I don't agree. There's a myth that CO is sufficiently heavier than air and will vent out of openings in the tent. In fact, carbon monoxide is slightly lighter than air and diffuses evenly throughout the structure. You're seriously at risk of dangerously increasing the CO to O2 ratio, even in what you think is a vented tent. PLEASE reconsider.


I agree, caution is warranted

This is what a book on wood/coal... cookstoves has to say about ventilation
Originally Posted By: Test-Results-Cookstove-Performance.pdf#page=69

Figure 20 - CO and average PM level reduction by ventilation
Closed Kitchen CO Average (ppm) 54
Hole in Roof CO Average (ppm) 18 reduction of 67%
Window and Hole in Roof CO Average (ppm) 14 reduction of 75%
Door Open CO Average (ppm) 1 reduction of 97%

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#276545 - 09/04/15 04:24 AM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: EMPnotImplyNuclear]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Here is an interesting reference: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4832a1.htm

They mention 878 to 1513 deaths per year due to CO poisoning (all venues, not just camping) and advise adequate clothing and bedding rather than a heater to stay warm in a shelter.

Probably more of a hazard than bears or lions, or even tiggers, but CO poisoning just doesn't grab the headlines....

You can sleep just fine with an open fire as long as you have a reflecting surface of some sort on the side opposite your blaze. Just be sure there is plenty of ventilation.

Sleeping cold isn't a whole lot of fun,but the good news is that you are sure to get an early start in the morning.


Edited by hikermor (09/04/15 04:26 AM)
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#276550 - 09/04/15 05:34 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
I believe, that burning fire inside a modern tent was tabooed simply because most of them are highly flammable, and that was approved by avid campers because in practice tents fail to keep warm air inside for long. Look at any typical tent, it's simply cannot hold any hot air at all because of abundance of mesh patches. CO2 generated by any fire is very hot, so it will be vented out first through those openings. Camping tents protects from rain, snow, wind, and bugs - that's all.

Personally, I prefer the hammock system for anything above freezing. The secret of warmth at night is your sleeping system (pad + sleeping bag). However, if you want to cook inside the tent (rain or wind outside), or just need to stop uncontrollable shivering - fire your stove inside and don't worry about CO2 (in a 4 season tent, just make sure some of the mesh openings are indeed open). Surely, you should never sleep with any burner on (except for a Catalytic one, dedicated for that), and always make sure there is no chance your burner can be tipped while operating - thats all about fire hazard, not CO2 danger. Also, it is wise to keep any fuel canisters outside after the use, they might leak and poison you.

The easy way to warm up your sleeping bag is to boil enough water, pour it into a plastic bottle, wrap it with some cloth, and hug it after you fully zipped inside the bag, leaving only 1-2 inches opening on the nose level (for breathing fresh air and preventing moisture condensation inside the bag). I'm using the crystallizing salts warmer pad for that, rolled into a tight bundle and placed inside a pair of spare running socks. If shivering is starting (usually in the early morning) - I'm simply bending the activator inside, placing the bundle high between thighs (there are two major arteries there) and having 4-5 hours of cozy warmth. At the breakfast time, I'm boiling that bundle in a cup of water right in the socks to reactivate salts for another night.

Alcohol stoves are quite finicky to operate in a cold weather, they need precise preheating. But they are burning cleaner than gas stoves, producing less CO2. That's why all of the fancy indoors decorative fireplaces are operating on alcohol (liquid or paste) without any chimney or venting requirements attached. For the fuel volume - 1 oz goes for about 5 minutes (in best alcohol burners - 10).

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#276562 - 09/05/15 08:12 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Alex]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
Assuming you know what you're doing and all... I use stoves inside tents, and have no plans to stop doing so. Especially in the winter time.

But said stove isn't use to HEAT the tent. It is used for cooking. Now in a small tent it gets pretty nice warm and cozy when you heat water with a 3kilowatt stove. But that isn't the main purpose of the stove, just a nice side effect.

Stoves inside tents isn't what I call easy going. It requires care and consentration. CO poisining is one danger you MUST take seriosly. That, and don't burn yourself, or your equipment.

For sleeping warm and snug you bring a sleeping bag + clothing, both appropriate for the season. And sleeping pad.

If the weather permits, melting snow can be done outside of the tent, you just dig a pit and put the stove there. This also means you can start melting water _*before*_ you pitch your tent. You need lots of water, and melting snow is slow going.

Now the optimum luxury is of course heating a large tent with a wood stove with chimney. But with our stove you need one pulk for the stove and some firewood... most likely you need at least another sack. And the cotton canvas tent is another pulk... so it's not exactly easy going.

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#276566 - 09/06/15 01:24 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Alex]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 517
Alex, do you mean CO or CO2?

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#276568 - 09/06/15 06:37 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: MostlyHarmless]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
The little buddy type portable propane heater is designed for use inside structure as a direct heat source. Due to the efficient combustion achieved using the ruby impregnated substrate, CO production is kept to safe levels. Additionally, the depletion of O2 is another issue in a closed space, and the little buddy is designed to deal with that as well. Unfortunately, the heater is an ignition source, so care must be exercised in exposing it to flammable materials/atmosphere.

I've used the little buddy in vehicles overnight and had no issues. It would work in a tent provided the venting was not excessive. At a rating of only 8000 btu, it wouldn't take much to overcome the amount of heat it can produce.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#276572 - 09/06/15 09:32 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: benjammin]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
And here is a product recall for one model http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2005/CPSC...uddy-Propane-He . A suitably warm sleeping bag is much less complex,and probaby safer in the long run.

The product recall doesn't involve CO production directly - it has to do with a fire hazard.
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Geezer in Chief

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