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#275528 - 06/25/15 05:09 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Tom_L]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Dogbert had it right:

Dilbert comic strip

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#275529 - 06/25/15 05:32 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: haertig]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
Originally Posted By: haertig
Dogbert had it right:

Dilbert comic strip


Too true!

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#275530 - 06/25/15 05:35 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Eastree]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
You might joke about the UK police, but there are places in the world where both bad and good guys don't see firearms as there primairy tool. Bad people still run away from them. Even the armed police units tend to grab tasers instead of there firearms when they can.

Firearms raises the stakes on both sides. Better to have a running competition between the good and the bad, then a gun competition.
_________________________


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#275531 - 06/25/15 06:16 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Tjin]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Tjin
Firearms raises the stakes on both sides. Better to have a running competition between the good and the bad, then a gun competition.

I guess that would work if the bad guys followed the rules. But they don't. That's why they're called "criminals".

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#275532 - 06/25/15 06:31 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: haertig]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
Originally Posted By: haertig
Originally Posted By: Tjin
Firearms raises the stakes on both sides. Better to have a running competition between the good and the bad, then a gun competition.

I guess that would work if the bad guys followed the rules. But they don't. That's why they're called "criminals".


In the USA it certainly won't work, but there are more placed in the world then just the US. Unarmed police can safe lifes because they can't shoot. Police know when to back down and criminals know they don't have to shoot at the police to get away.

Have a read from the washingtonpost here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worl...-it-works-well/

Countries, regions, communities across the world are different. Don't judge them by compairing them to just yours. If it's stupid, but works it ain't stupid.
_________________________


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#275533 - 06/25/15 07:42 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Tjin]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Tjin, I do agree with you to a point. There is always a fine line between an efficient police force and oppression. Arming the police to the teeth, dressing them in SWAT black and encouraging the use of military-style gear and tactics in a civilian environment is likely to do more harm than good... As demonstrated by a number of recent incidents and protests against police violence in the US for example (or France a few years ago).

Then again, I'm not sure the British strategy is working very well either. A somewhat tougher approach to law enforcement might work better than highly restrictive (and sometimes nonsensical) legislation that achieves little in the long run other than alienating the honest, law-abiding population.

In any case, I have travelled quite a bit in the UK and enjoyed my time spent there, whether it was business or leisure. Other than a few less than pleasant experiences in the big cities like London or Manchester I felt pretty safe. I did notice a sizeable police presence in the major urban centers though. I also felt a little uncomfortable about the ubiquitous Big Brother CCTV. Not quite my idea of a perfect society but surely I could think of many far more dangerous places to live.

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#275534 - 06/25/15 08:02 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: Tjin]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Originally Posted By: Tjin

Countries, regions, communities across the world are different. Don't judge them by compairing them to just yours. If it's stupid, but works it ain't stupid.


IMO, this is the key. And it goes both ways.

A quick check on Google shows 196 recognized countries in the world in 2015. 5 are cited in the article (with some few also rans mentioned). This is a low percentage, call it 2.5%. The article itself mentions unique local social factors that influence the lack or armed law enforcement.

So direct comparisons of "this works for them, therefore it will/should work for you," are very suspect. The local conditions, social conventions and social unity all play into this.

Just adopting the laws from another country where those laws work to another does not mean that they will work there.

IMO, disarming the police in the U.S. would not work. No sane person would join the police force in such a situation. Personal example: during the 1972 anti-war demonstrations in D.C., my Military Police company was sent onto the D.C. streets. We were told that groups armed with automatic weapons were stalking us, but were not issued ammo for the M-16's we carried. If we had not been under military orders and threat of Court Marshall, how many in my company of M.P.'s does anyone think would sally forth? Every Time a police officer in the U.S. makes a traffic stop for a trivial traffic violation, he has to prepare himself, mentally and physically, for a shoot out. Every stop, every time, 365 days a year. It can and does wear the best down.

25 or more years ago, I had the opportunity to talk off the record with the chief of training of one of the local (to D.C.) police organizations. At that time, “concealed carry rights” was just getting started as a movement. I asked him, how, if it passed, would this change Police Training. His answer was words to the effect that “Not at all.” When I looked surprised/confused, he explained that (in words to the effect that) “I train every officer to assume everyone they contact is armed,---if I don’t, I will end up with dead officers.”

“For every complex social problem, there is a solution that is simple, obvious, easy and wrong.” ---Anonymous.

So, yes there is a violence problem in the U.S. between police and civilians, but IMO, removing the objects used in the violence from one side (i.e. guns) does not solve the problem of the violence itself. It is a much harder problem, one for which I lack the wisdom to solve, but am pretty sure that disarming one side will not work.

I admire those nations that can work without armed police, but they are different nations and societies. As much as we in the U.S. might want something else, we must deal with reality as it is, not as what we wish it was.
_________________________
"Better is the enemy of good enough."

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#275535 - 06/25/15 08:07 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: bws48]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
Originally Posted By: bws48
Originally Posted By: Tjin

Countries, regions, communities across the world are different. Don't judge them by compairing them to just yours. If it's stupid, but works it ain't stupid.


IMO, this is the key. And it goes both ways.

A quick check on Google shows 196 recognized countries in the world in 2015. 5 are cited in the article (with some few also rans mentioned). This is a low percentage, call it 2.5%. The article itself mentions unique local social factors that influence the lack or armed law enforcement.

So direct comparisons of "this works for them, therefore it will/should work for you," are very suspect. The local conditions, social conventions and social unity all play into this.

Just adopting the laws from another country where those laws work to another does not mean that they will work there.

IMO, disarming the police in the U.S. would not work. No sane person would join the police force in such a situation. Personal example: during the 1972 anti-war demonstrations in D.C., my Military Police company was sent onto the D.C. streets. We were told that groups armed with automatic weapons were stalking us, but were not issued ammo for the M-16's we carried. If we had not been under military orders and threat of Court Marshall, how many in my company of M.P.'s does anyone think would sally forth? Every Time a police officer in the U.S. makes a traffic stop for a trivial traffic violation, he has to prepare himself, mentally and physically, for a shoot out. Every stop, every time, 365 days a year. It can and does wear the best down.

25 or more years ago, I had the opportunity to talk off the record with the chief of training of one of the local (to D.C.) police organizations. At that time, “concealed carry rights” was just getting started as a movement. I asked him, how, if it passed, would this change Police Training. His answer was words to the effect that “Not at all.” When I looked surprised/confused, he explained that (in words to the effect that) “I train every officer to assume everyone they contact is armed,---if I don’t, I will end up with dead officers.”

“For every complex social problem, there is a solution that is simple, obvious, easy and wrong.” ---Anonymous.

So, yes there is a violence problem in the U.S. between police and civilians, but IMO, removing the objects used in the violence from one side (i.e. guns) does not solve the problem of the violence itself. It is a much harder problem, one for which I lack the wisdom to solve, but am pretty sure that disarming one side will not work.

I admire those nations that can work without armed police, but they are different nations and societies. As much as we in the U.S. might want something else, we must deal with reality as it is, not as what we wish it was.


I wasn't clear enough on that. I do mean it both ways. Certain thing work in certain locations. I just found the responce to the article at the top a little too viewed by the US kind of perspective. No illusion that disarming any US police will be a good idea.
_________________________


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#275537 - 06/25/15 08:47 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: brandtb]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
In conversations like this, it seems like people fail to take into account the fact that the population does not include just able-bodied men.

If you go down the road of taking away all weapons, how is an injured person in bed supposed to defend against a robber who strolls into his house and wants stuff? Is the injured person just screwed, and oh well? What about handicapped people? What about elderly people? What about women who weigh 95 pounds? Are they just screwed too?

People who can fight well with their hands (mostly men) will be the only people who can defend themselves.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#275538 - 06/25/15 09:05 PM Re: Save a Life – Surrender Your Knife [Re: ireckon]
Wheels Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/19/08
Posts: 55
Loc: Central Virginia
Haven't posted for quite a while but I saw this and ...

I use a wheelchair (5'0" 115lbs). Six months ago a 6'4" guy broke into my house. He told me he was going to beat my effing head in. I shot and killed him. The police were already looking for him. They, the police, were on the way but I didn't know that. I feel fortunate to live in a country where I am able to defend myself and my wife. Without a weapon there would not have been much I could have done. I know this is mostly a knife rights thread and I certainly do not mean to hijack it. Just my 2 cents.

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