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#275211 - 05/26/15 10:50 AM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
The primary error is almost always in judgment and making bad decisions. The victim was very frank about his bad decisions. But people make bad decisions a lot, and sometimes things happen that are out of your control, and you need the basic equipment to keep yourself alive. He stated that he did not want to carry a "40 pound backpack" and most of our posts have been about how much lighter and smaller than that you can get and still provide good protection. Carrying insufficient gear was not the "real problem", but he could improve the gear he carries and be safer and more survivable. That is the intent of these posts.

It is not an either/or proposition. You need to have good training, pay attention and make good decisions. But you also need to be "equipped to survive", especially at such altitudes and in winter.

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#275217 - 05/26/15 02:09 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Sure, much agreed. I just cannot help but wonder sometimes how living the modern civilized lifestyle has made us so much more reliant, even dependent on gear that not long ago simply did not exist or wasn't needed.

I often talked with my grandmother about how things were back in the old days when she was just a kid growing up on a farm. It was a tough life, most males were involved in logging and everyone was expected to do their share of work.

Usually that would mean going up the hills on foot along any convenient trail or track, maybe a couple of hours or so starting very early in the morning, taking nothing more than their tools (axes, billhooks, two-man saws) to travel light. No water - they would find it in the woods because they knew where to look. Even though surface water is not easy to come by over there and springs often run dry in summer.

They would work all morning, then the girls would bring them lunch (on foot again). They would take a little rest and keep working until the evening when it was time to get back. Horses and wagons were brought along only when transporting the logs down into the valley. Most other days they were needed elsewhere around the farm.

It was all a pretty casual everyday thing. But in reality, it meant trekking up some fairly nasty, steep hills through dense woodland where it's very easy to get lost. In addition, it happens to be pretty tough bear country plus lots of snakes. Much of the work was done in the colder months, so a little snow on the ground didn't really bother anyone.

Even the younger boys had to pull their weight. They would often be sent to work on their own. Once when my grandmother's two cousins in their early teens went out to do the daily routine one of them accidentally cut himself on the foot pretty badly with an axe. His brother helped him get back home, which would be considered a serious survival ordeal these days. When dad found about it, he first gave the poor kid a real scolding before proceeding to bandage his foot. Which I guess goes to show how things worked.

Anyway, I suppose it was tough but it went on pretty much day in, day out and nobody seemed to think it was that much of a stress. And most of the time, people survived and did their work just fine without backpacks full of goodies, whistles and PLBs. But then, they felt familiar with the environment and had plenty of skills (maybe even common sense) that are often found lacking today.

I often think about that when I go hiking in those woods. Always bringing a backpack, map & compass, plenty of expensive survival gear, goretex and a sound 'tactical' plan to boot.

No doubt back in the early 20th century folks would find that at least a little funny! smile

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#275219 - 05/26/15 04:37 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
gonewiththewind Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1517
As a father and a Scoutmaster, not to mention retired SF soldier, I have focused a lot on teaching skills and reducing dependency on gear and electronics. While those devices are nice to have, and may save your life, it is best to train on developing those skills you describe. Getting ourselves and the kids away from comforts and conveniences is good for all of us. Learning is a process, and skills must be practiced. Watching a movie or reading a book without practice does not cut it. I love learning primitive skills using old (before electricity or internal combustion engines) technology. And I love being in the woods without distractions.

All of that said, I carry those minimal things that I described earlier, just in case. The pioneers and Native Americans would have carried them if they had such things.

Remember that gear and technology do not replace training, practice and good judgment. You only develop skills and good judgment by getting out there, and probably making some mistakes. Just don't let the mistakes kill you.

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#275222 - 05/26/15 05:52 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: hikermor]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
"If conditions or the forecast is stormy" I for one go find something better to do.
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I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#275231 - 05/27/15 02:39 AM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I would agree heartily, if we are talking only about recreational activities. Sometime, as in SAR, that option may not be available.

Some years ago, three of us were assigned a search task that involved climbing upward in deep snow (we used snowshoes) starting about 10 PM and lasting all night. I had packed a complete liquid fuel stove set with adequate fuel, along with bivvy gear. My pack weight was actually lighter than my typical summer rescue load, since much less water was packed.

One of my companions inquired if I had a stove; I said yes. He still carried his stove, remarking that the redundancy and extra weight made sense in this situation. As it turned out, neither was utilized on this particular operation.

Although this was a demanding assignment,I would argue that we were not exposed to any significant risk (contrary to Doug's assertion in his comments on this event). Experience, which facilitates good judgment and decisions, along with appropriate equipment for the task at hand, makes a huge difference and a happy ending - at least for us. Our victim, whose companions made a whole string of very bad decisions, perished.


Edited by hikermor (05/27/15 02:47 AM)
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#276489 - 09/01/15 06:55 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: Doug_Ritter]
TeacherRO Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
Why not have both?

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#276492 - 09/01/15 09:59 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: hikermor]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: hikermor
... I had packed a complete liquid fuel stove set with adequate fuel, ...


I tried winter/snow hiking and camping, but it wasn't for me. I've dealt with snow and ice and an occasional winter-like storm of short duration in shoulder season at altitude, but I've never been whited out, snowed in, etc.

Would a tiny alcohol burner be worthwhile as a survival aid in an unplanned alpine winter bivouac, or is the heat output too low to be of much real help?

How much fuel, either white gas for, e.g., an MSR stove, or denatured alcohol for a Trangia or cat-can stove, do you estimate would be required to minimally heat a small survival shelter for, say, 12-24 hours?

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#276493 - 09/01/15 10:39 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: JeffMc]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
A small alcohol burner is much better than no heat source, for sure. In the case I was recalling, I carried a Primus 71, fueled with white gas, definitely a miniature blast furnace, and which is much better for the minus zero temps we were facing

It wasn't carried as a space heater - its function was to melt the snow and heat the food and water that would have maintained the ability of our bodies to maintain 98.6 inside our clothing layers and inside our sleeping bags. The interior of the shelter, tent, or whatever, falls to the prevailing ambient temperature.

To answer your question specifically, the amount of fuel necessary to heat the interior of any shelter is more that I am willing or able to carry.
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Geezer in Chief

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#276497 - 09/01/15 11:13 PM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: JeffMc]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: JeffMc
How much fuel, either white gas for, e.g., an MSR stove, or denatured alcohol for a Trangia or cat-can stove, do you estimate would be required to minimally heat a small survival shelter for, say, 12-24 hours?

Do not try to heat your shelter with a backpacking stove! Running a small stove to heat the inside a tent, snow cave, or other shelters puts you at great risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. If you are trying to warm up the inside of a shelter, you will presumably have sealed the shelter up against drafts. Also, you will probably be tempted to run the stove for a long time, and perhaps run it while you are sleeping. DO NOT DO THIS!

Just one example of what can happen: Maroon Bells campers' carbon monoxide levels way above lethal

Any stove run for heat inside a shelter must have a chimney to vent fumes outside. Some tents have small wood stoves and chimneys, which are fine. But these are not typically something you would want to backpack.
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"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#276499 - 09/02/15 12:36 AM Re: Lessons Learned: Never Want To Be This Cold Again [Re: AKSAR]
JeffMc Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/15
Posts: 129
Loc: Northwest Florida
Good point.

Proper ventilation is absolutely essential when using any sort of flame or stove for emergency warmth, whether it's in a car stuck in a snowbank, an emergency shelter, or any other confined space.I have seen what happens when people fail to do this, and it ain't pretty.

Also, tents are seldom even slightly burn resistant, nor are many modern materials used in outdoor clothing and gear. Stoves sometimes leak, flare up or get knocked over, so I never use a stove in or even near my tent. But, on the other hand, I have used candles and fires to warm different shelters, like lean-to's and debris huts. It's a long-established practice.

It helps to really know what you're doing, and not just think you know what you're doing.

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