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#272897 - 11/18/14 04:03 AM a medic's EDC
TeacherRO Offline
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Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2396

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#272901 - 11/18/14 06:26 AM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: TeacherRO]
Burncycle Offline
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Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 539
I feel like more EMTs should be free to help (within their scope) while off duty without having to fear litigation, should they choose to do so.

Obviously a lot of it will be limited anyway by the fact that they don't have an ambulance with them while off duty, but it's a shame to see experience and expertise go to waste for fear of being sued or losing your career.

I just finished my first responder course as part of my continuing education as a volunteer firefighter, and the Paramedic that was our instructor doesn't carry anything off duty.

Even as a first responder, protocols set by the medical directors may limit you so much that even a layperson would be permitted to do more, as directed by a 911 operator, than I could on the job. In my AO, I cannot take a blood glucose reading for a diabetic with altered mental status, despite it being incredibly easy, essentially no risk, and something I've done countless times both on myself and helping family members. I cannot administer glucose should someone need it. I cannot use nasal airway adjuncts even with their advantages over oral airways, administer epinephrine auto injectors to those who are going into anaphylactic shock, or immobilize someone (all I can do is assist EMTs in immobilization). Most all of this stems from litigation fears.

I came across an accident where a woman hit a kid on a bike. She stopped, and it turns out she was a nurse, but would do nothing to help despite her experience. There are few worse things I can imagine than being hurt badly, looking up, and just seeing people stare at you and not willing to help, even if able. Or worse, just whipping their phones out and instead of calling 911, filming it for youtube.

Luckily I live in the city where EMS and fire are pretty close, but in the county response times can vary widely. Since all county stuff is volunteer, sometimes I hear first responder calls simply go unanswered, and people end up having to wait for EMS which may take quite a while to get there.

I always carry nitrile gloves, and usually have a kit nearby. -- if I'm wearing cargo pants, it's in a cargo pocket, and if not it's in the glove compartment of my car. It usually includes a CAT tourniquet, Israeli dressing, combat gauze, a rescue hook and HALO seals.

I would really like to see AEDs come down into the $500 price bracket. Right now they can be had for $1,000-1,200, but these things need to be cheap enough that you can realistically see them in an average home.

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#272902 - 11/18/14 03:52 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: Burncycle]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5296
Loc: SOCAL
Yep, that's his EDC not what he carries working. The list is interesting, but context would be useful; why did he choose what he chose. I s'pose it would also help to know what state he resides and if liability is an issue. It's kinda sad that a (WFA trained) layperson like me could potentially do more at an accident than a highly trained medical professional simply because they are held to a different legal standard.

That said, I keep a trauma kit in the truck alongside an AMK Weekender FAK. There's a similar size FAK that I put together with extra 4x4's, triangle bandages, a second pair of EMT shears, nitrile gloves and add'l wipes -- but that's not EDC.

My EDC is all pocket carry. The FAK is currently an AMK .5 Ultralight modified to remove stuff I'll never use. Other than that standard stuff: locking folder, folding scissors, cell phone... stuff I use daily.


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#272904 - 11/18/14 04:06 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: TeacherRO]
Tjin Offline
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Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1772
I only carry a few bandaids, nitrile gloves and a CPR Mask (not the full size one, but the plastic foil one with a hard plastic valve) as truely everyday carry items.

In most cases it can either wait or I'm not trained enough to do anything about it. With the exception of CPR, thats why I carry the mask.
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#272906 - 11/18/14 06:20 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: Burncycle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7191
Loc: southern Cal
I don't know where you live, but I have worked in states with "Good Samaritan" laws (AZ and CA) and off duty medical personnel (from nurses to MDs) have always pitched in without fear of litigation.
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#272908 - 11/18/14 06:53 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: hikermor]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5296
Loc: SOCAL
-- continuing on a tangent --
As I recall, as long as you act in good faith you are covered.
See California's Good Samaritans Law
Quote:
...At common law, there is no duty to rescue another person, even if it is clear that the person will die without help. The duty may arise, however, if the two people have a special relationship with one another, like parent and child or husband and wife. If a person without one of these special relationships decides to help another, he or she must exercise reasonable care in rendering the aid. If the injured person is further harmed because the person providing help did not exercise reasonable care, then the injured person can sue for civil damages.

Since the common law rule provides little incentive to people to help one another in emergency situations, the majority of states have passed laws known as Good Samaritans statutes to make exceptions to this rule. Under California's Good Samaritan statute (Health & Safety Code 1799.102), those who act in good faith to provide emergency care at the scene of an emergency are immune from civil liability. ...

In the WFA course I took they stressed taking care of certain life threatening things immediately (breathing, major bleeding, et al), and then stabilize so the first responders have a living subject to work on/evacuate. Don''t make things worse (do no harm). In some situations making the person mobile so they can participate in the evacuation may be in order, but that's very situational. You may end up getting a fire going and setting up shelter to wait for an evacuation.

When I have the opportunity I'd like to upgrade to WFR (Wilderness First Responder); but simply knowing your limitations is useful.

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#272910 - 11/18/14 07:04 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: hikermor]
Burncycle Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 539
Originally Posted By: hikermor
I don't know where you live, but I have worked in states with "Good Samaritan" laws (AZ and CA) and off duty medical personnel (from nurses to MDs) have always pitched in without fear of litigation.


Technically where I live they are covered by Good Samaritan laws while off duty as well, but the attitude amongst the EMS personnel I've encountered still tends to be avoiding helping while off duty, and hence most see no reason to carry anything at all, including basic PPE. I don't really understand the attitude. I can't imagine some of them wouldn't be willing to assist in an MCI if they happen to be nearby.

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#272911 - 11/18/14 07:27 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: Burncycle]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7191
Loc: southern Cal
That is definitely contrary to the attitude and actions of medical people with whom I have worked with at several emergency situations.

I hope responders with better attitudes (i.e., more professional)are present when it is my turn in the barrel. I wonder what the people you describe will do if it is five o'clock and they are supposed to go off duty.

Perhaps the thinking is that if they are caught with medical tools, they will be held to a higher standard?
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#272912 - 11/18/14 07:52 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: TeacherRO]
JerryFountain Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 418
Loc: St. Petersburg, Florida
It may be an interesting look, but if you carefully note, he is not carrying all that much FA type gear. I have almost that much in my EDC briefcase (except the CAT) , lots more in my car kit.

This is all I see that is direct FA gear, the rest is EDC for other problems.

CAT Tourniquet
2" Medical Tape
Trauma Shears and Mini Trauma Shears
2x Adult OPA
(In Pouch) 2x2, 3x3, 4x4 Sterile Gauze (5 each)
Adult Air Mask
Triangular Bandage/ Cravat
3x 4 yard Roller Gauze
Mini Altoids Tin with Nitrite Gloves
Streamlight Penlight, Ti Pen, Sharpie

Respectfully,

Jerry

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#272914 - 11/18/14 08:18 PM Re: a medic's EDC [Re: JerryFountain]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5296
Loc: SOCAL
Hmmm, mini Altoids w/ nitrile gloves -- that's a great idea. the gloves can survive fairly rough handling and still come thru intact. I keep mine in small ziploc bags.

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