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#268433 - 03/21/14 02:56 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Arney -- IMO Fukushima was a major factor in San Onofre being shut down. Nuclear reactor, on the Pacific Ocean, lots of seismic activity... Do the math. Nuc engineer I know says the reactor was a different design, but the engineers in Japan probably thought they were good too. Group think...

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#268434 - 03/21/14 02:57 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
There is the general consensus that 85% of operating vehicles will die and 50% will restart and operate normally. There is a video on YouTube that shows a test car being hit. It dies and won't even turn over but the battery is still good and it's power windows continue to operate. Pre 1972 vehicles are considered EMP proof because they don't have electronics installed.

Yes, a power cord will take in an EMP but it, like the antenna must be at least 10". Most power cords are approx 3-5 FEET in length.

Any Farraday cage must be well grounded in order to work.

Edited to include additional info.


Edited by wildman800 (03/21/14 02:59 PM)
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#268435 - 03/21/14 03:25 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: wildman800]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
When you say 10" are you referring to 10 inches (") or 10 feet (')?

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#268440 - 03/21/14 04:53 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
What year is/was the car on youtube? If newer there is probably a small fuse inline with the starter relay.

Modern card have more computers but also have better protected electronics. In the early days a transistor was simply a transistor, now inside that little package there are regulators, surge protection, etc so the components are made tougher. Also since the 70's the rubber in car tires now has metal added to make them conductive so the car is somewhat grounded.

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#268445 - 03/21/14 05:55 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Russ]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Russ
Arney -- IMO Fukushima was a major factor in San Onofre being shut down.

You're probably correct. I was still living close to San Onofre when they first discovered the steam generator tube degradation issue, and Fukushima was definitely still on my mind.

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#268458 - 03/21/14 08:27 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
So if this is what I read, we were about 2 weeks out of the way, correct?

And regarding EMP ... I thought it only affected items that were actively running power? Ie, if the TV was turned off at the time of event, it would be OK after the event (no power surge).

With 1-2 days warning, couldn't they just pro-actively shut down the grid for the duration of the event then re-start things?

Would this affect folks on the opposite side of the planet? Ie, Europe goes down and we keep chugging along?

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#268460 - 03/21/14 08:46 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
It will have a effect on the backside as well. The amount of effect to the backside is not completely clear.

I seriously doubt if turning off appliances and electronics will have much of an effect because the power cord and antenna, if longer than 10" will pick up enough energy to burn out the interior circuitry. Disconnecting the antenna and power cord, at the unit would help but then the question remains as to whether there is sufficient wiring inside to pickup enough voltage to still fry everything inside.

In 1859, railroad ties & telegraph poles were set on fire and the telegraph poles had glass insulators between the wires and the wooden poles. Also, there weren't any grounding straps running down the poles or from the RR Rails.

The effects on today's infrastructure and equipment is still largely unknown despite 30+ years of testing and research.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#268467 - 03/21/14 11:24 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: wildman800]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
Originally Posted By: wildman800
I usually get 1-2 days notice, by keeping a watch on certain Internet forums and thru apps ( eg: NASA SPACE WEATHER). The only things I can think of are to disconnect electric or electronics from the power source and from antennas. A 10" or longer antenna will catch enough power to burn out circuits.

The only proven method of protection is to secure one 's equipment in a Farraday Cage.

Grounded or ungrounded? There is considerable debate over this currently.

I'm surprised that this is a topic now. I brought this up last year and it was met by a collective yawn...

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#268531 - 03/25/14 09:11 AM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: sodak]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 474
Loc: Somerset UK
One should take care not to confuse solar storms/CMEs with an EMP.

An EMP is the result of a nuclear detonation at high altitude, this would induce very damaging electrical currents in most any electronics within line of sight of the explosion.

A solar storm is a natural event occuring on the surface of the sun, the electrical and magnetic effects could be very damaging on earth, but are much less intense than a man made EMP. damaging effects are only likely in very long conductors or items connnected thereto.
Examples include high voltage grid lines, long distance copper telephone lines, and long pipelines.

I would not expect a solar storm to damage the following (unless they are connected to conductors many miles in length)

Hand held battery electronics
Vehicle electrics
Portable or mobile generators
Line powered equipment if unplugged at the time.
Domestic sized wind or solar power installations.

Large electrical facilities such as power plants and transformers should be safe if ISOLATED FROM LONG TRANSMISSION LINES in time.

Given a few hours warning of a severe solar storm, there is a lot that can be done, including.

Either order an orderly shutdown of the grid, or at least dividing it into small local sections
Hireing or requestioning mobile generators for vital facilities
Pre positioning road or rail tankers of fuel in suitable places
Ensuring that diesel and even steam powered locomotives are in suitable places, together with fuel.
Cancelling all police and military leave, posibly call up reserves.
Shut down oil refineries, and if possible physicly discconnect long oil or gas pipelines from the rest of the equipment.

In years gone by, long copper telephone or telegraph lines would be vulnerable, but are now fibre optic or radio links.

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#269587 - 04/30/14 02:14 AM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Newsman Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 67
Loc: NW Arkansas
Here is a NASA-produced video (published April 28) on the double CME that happened 2 years ago. We did, indeed, dodge a bullet.

http://youtu.be/7ukQhycKOFw

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