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#265241 - 11/20/13 11:55 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: Bingley]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
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Originally Posted By: Bingley
And the question of alien presence in pre-Columbian America continues! Why is is that the Mayans had advanced astronomy, mathematics, and even aerospace engineering, and yet they were defenseless against germs? Is it like the War of the Worlds? Why didn't their alien overlords protect them? Why weren't they able to activate the crystal skulls in time?


I don't think the question of alien presence in pre-Columbian America continues. Frankly, it has been convincingly and overwhelmingly refuted, basically for lack of any tangible evidence. Fanciful interpretation of a Mayan carving does not qualify..

A lot of these theories start with a fairly racist premise - these folks were so primitive that the only way they could have done what they did was with outside assistance. On the contrary, you can demonstrate a long record (thousands of years) leading to their achievements. At the time they were ravaged by introduced diseases, neither they nor anyone else had an inkling of the germ theory of disease.


Edited by hikermor (11/21/13 12:34 AM)
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#265243 - 11/21/13 12:27 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: JBMat]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4934
Loc: SOCAL
That discussion could get very theological -- pass.

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#265247 - 11/21/13 05:47 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Phaedrus Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2164
Loc: Great Plains
I agree, racism is the core of most "ancient astronaut" foolishness. Remember that until the Eiffle Tower was built the Great Pyramid was the tallest human-made structure on Earth! People looked at the marvels of antiquity and just assumed that since modern people would have trouble duplicating them that the ancients couldn't have created them. Which is hogwash, of course. Many ancient cultures had some very advanced knowledge of specific areas. For example, after the fall of Rome the secret of making concrete was lost for about 1000 years!

It's interesting that for all their knowledge in some areas, the aboriginal peoples of the Americas never really learned to work iron or create steel. Essentially they remained stone/bronze age. I've heard it suggested that this could be explained by the "Beast of Burden Theory". It postulates that without horses early Americans didn't have the power/means to mine and work iron. I dunno, it could be. Horses died out in the Americas tens of thousands of years before humans arrived here and weren't reintroduced until the Spanish first came to the "New World." Certainly it wasn't for lack of intelligence, nor a lack of need. The natives were quick to understand the usefulness of steel once they were introduced to it.
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#265249 - 11/21/13 07:13 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: hikermor]
Bingley Offline
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Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1384
Originally Posted By: hikermor
A lot of these theories start with a fairly racist premise - these folks were so primitive that the only way they could have done what they did was with outside assistance.


I know these outrageous alien theories pretty well -- they are a hobby of mine. My take is that they are a sort of science-like mythology that substitutes space aliens for the gods that we can no longer believe in in our modern technological age. The claim is not that "Mayans were so primitive that they couldn't have accomplished all they supposedly had done without alien help, but we white men did it all by ourselves," but that all of humanity is, in origin and in development, the work of aliens. We were created by aliens (sometimes the idea of "after their own image" pops up), and technological leaps and feats, especially in ancient times, were the result of alien intervention. But modern times are no exception -- some theorize that Einstein had alien help. What are we talking about here? Look closely: this is what we used to call divine inspiration in the Age of Religion.

This is just a brief paragraph on a rather complex matter, about which my thoughts have not settled. As for racism, certainly as an institution it influences our culture at every level, so I can imagine more subtle ways that conspiracy theorists may fall under its sway especially when theorizing about a people that has been largely understood through colonial eyes. I do think that some theorists invent tales precisely to knock down the imperialist narrative, though these tales might have been co-opted already. Attributing "wisdom" to the ancients (Mayan or not) that we moderns have lost, is something akin to the idea of the "noble savage," which is a way for empire justify its conquest while bemoaning a certain loss of innocence.

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#265250 - 11/21/13 07:48 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Phaedrus Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2164
Loc: Great Plains
Interestingly enough, a native American coworker of mine (a highly educated guy with a graduate degree in economics) was explaining what some of the tribes believed. This fella was pretty highly ranked in his own tribe, the son of a chieftain of some sort that traced his lineage back about 500 years. At any rate, he explained to me that many native religions held that the Gods came from the heavens and created humanity as a slave race. Apparently this is a pretty common native belief.
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#265253 - 11/21/13 02:38 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Pete Offline
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1353
The loss of isolated societies, like the Nicoleno Indians from the Channel Islands, is a reminder that "civilizations" ... or small versions of them ... can disappear. Parts of mankind can go extinct. Knowledge gets lost, cultures disappear. It's sad when a whole group of people are completely gone - but it does happen.

Pete2

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#265255 - 11/21/13 06:53 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: Bingley]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077

Alien intervention in Homo Sapien genetics is certainly in the realm of Science fiction. Check out the 1967 film 'Quatermass and the pit'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Quatermass-And-The-Pit-Blu-ray/dp/B00525QJYO

A more disturbing aspect is the transition from Homo Sapien to Homo Urbanus. Today for example I came across these in the supermarket;

http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/asda-comp...atoes_800g.html

Pre peeled Maris Piper Potatoes! shocked Wrapped in a Cellophane Nitrogen purged atmosphere.

Barbarianism with knives or civilization with spoons?

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#265257 - 11/21/13 09:52 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Bingley Offline
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Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1384
Since you guys seem so into American archeology, let me share something I noticed in today's news:

Native American European ancestry

For alien lovers, check out Mission to Mars, a more recent sci-fi film that concludes with a theory of humanity's origin.

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#265259 - 11/22/13 01:21 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6612
Loc: southern Cal
Interesting - not that the skeletal material is from
Siberia, not North America, so it most likely represents the population that was poised to enter North America.

It is fairly certain that the very earliest human remains in North America are somewhat different from both Siberian and North American populations. It is certainly worthwhile to have more data to work with.

It is also gratifying that they were able to find DNA in material this old. We tried mightily to find DNA in the Arlington Springs bones from Santa Rosa Island, but it had all leached away...


Edited by hikermor (11/22/13 01:30 AM)
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#265266 - 11/22/13 03:15 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Pete Offline
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1353
Bingley ... about the aliens and the crystal skulls - I suggest you talk to Fox Mulder and get his opinion. All I can tell you is this. If you've walking at night and you see a strange glow on the horizon, don't assume it's just a kids' soccer game. You should definitely go and investigate. You might want to pack a ham sandwich - because this could take a while :-)

Pete2

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