Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 6 of 10 < 1 2 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >
Topic Options
#265171 - 11/17/13 06:12 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
The numbers are interesting, but not quite as important I think as the reasons why these civilizations, like all the rest, failed. I find it interesting that some of the early American civs knew for quite a while they were going to end. Were they smart enough to know they were doomed, but not smart enough to be able to do anything about it?

Sounds familiar.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

Top
#265173 - 11/17/13 08:59 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Phaedrus Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 1982
Loc: Great Plains
I'm not defending the claims of 100 million but they have been put forth by reputable scientists. Certainly 35-50 million is quite plausible and puts the population of the Americas at levels slightly above that of Europe. Also recall that at the peak levels of mortality nearly half of Europe died of the Black Plague.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

Top
#265174 - 11/17/13 09:25 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Pete Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1307
I thought that the theory that Native American populations were much higher at one time is very fascinating. Incidentally, it's possible that the Black Plague crossed the Atlantic somehow. That plague was certainly virulent enough to kill so many Indians. Or maybe it was the other way around, and the plague originated in the Americas and somehow traveled to Europe?

I was just looking at old designs of Irish ships a week ago - a new experience for me. They were not much bigger than rowboats, and the original covering on the hull was animal skin. But the old sailors from Ireland sailed them quite a long way out into the Atlantic. Julius Ceasar is quoted as having observed these Irish ships when he went to England. It seems plausible that similar ships belonged to people from Iceland. And therefore, some kind of contact between the ancient Americas and Europe cannot be ruled out.

Pete2

Top
#265175 - 11/17/13 10:38 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 5917
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Pete
It seems plausible that similar ships belonged to people from Iceland. And therefore, some kind of contact between the ancient Americas and Europe cannot be ruled out.Pete2
I -

Indeed there was contact around 1000 AD by Vikings, sailing in their extremely seaworthy long boats. Settlements of theirs have been found and dated at the site of L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland. Other possible sites are under study.

There may have been contact along the Pacific Coast as well. One archaeologist has suggested that one of the earliest cultures to make pottery in Peru may have had contact with adrift Japanese fisherman, who were making pottery at the time.

Scandinavian and Scottish lore talks about selkies, strange creatures who may have been Inuit straying far from home in their skin kayaks.

Other contacts have been proposed. There undoubtedly was contact, but it was inconsequential for the most part until 1492. I am unaware of any evidence of the Black Plague in North America prehistorically, although it is present today in rodent populations in the western US at least. Anyone have more information?
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#265179 - 11/18/13 05:53 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Pete Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1307
let's consider this a little bit. it bears thinking about. let's imagine that maybe 50 million Native Americans were living in the USA at some earlier time before 1492. and let's also guess that whatever wiped them out was not the Black Plague. that would leave some other virulent disease as a possible cause. A conceivable explanation is some form of a 'flu virus which was a completely different strain from anything the people had seen before. Or an outbreak of a European 'flu virus carried by travelers on small ships from Iceland or Scandinavia.

But if it wasn't a 'flu virus - that means that some other virulent disease existed on the historical US continent that wiped out millions of people. and not inconceivably, remnants from that virus could still exist in archeological artefacts buried with those people today.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (11/18/13 05:55 AM)

Top
#265180 - 11/18/13 06:43 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: Pete]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1272
Originally Posted By: Pete
But if it wasn't a 'flu virus - that means that some other virulent disease existed on the historical US continent that wiped out millions of people. and not inconceivably, remnants from that virus could still exist in archeological artefacts buried with those people today.


Sounds like the premise of an Indiana Jones zombie movie! Let's throw some Nazis and North Koreans in there just to make it interesting… Say, Jones is on one of his archeological trips away from the lusty busty college girls at Oxford. (Hikermor can attest to how any spare moment an archeologist has is taken up with a hot girl/guy in his/her lap.) It just so happens both the Nazis and the North Koreans are looking for the well-preserved body of Montezuma XII, precisely to weaponize the dormant virus. Indy gets into much intrigue and action, while rescuing hot maidens along the way, some of whom, predictably, die for him.

Who wants to continue with writing the script?

Top
#265181 - 11/18/13 08:09 AM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: Pete]
Phaedrus Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 1982
Loc: Great Plains
Originally Posted By: Pete
let's consider this a little bit. it bears thinking about. let's imagine that maybe 50 million Native Americans were living in the USA at some earlier time before 1492. and let's also guess that whatever wiped them out was not the Black Plague. that would leave some other virulent disease as a possible cause. A conceivable explanation is some form of a 'flu virus which was a completely different strain from anything the people had seen before. Or an outbreak of a European 'flu virus carried by travelers on small ships from Iceland or Scandinavia.

But if it wasn't a 'flu virus - that means that some other virulent disease existed on the historical US continent that wiped out millions of people. and not inconceivably, remnants from that virus could still exist in archeological artefacts buried with those people today.

Pete2


It's no mystery- it was contact with Europeans.
_________________________
“You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.” Naguib Mahfouz

Top
#265184 - 11/18/13 02:51 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Pete Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1307
Laugh all you want
But if Hikermore comes down with green spots and a cough
i am calling the Hotline !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

where the heck is my isolation suit, anyway?

Pete2


Edited by Pete (11/18/13 02:52 PM)

Top
#265185 - 11/18/13 03:02 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 5917
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: Pete
i did see one idea - more of a conjecture - that the Native American population was significantly higher before European cilization arrived. However, it wasn't right before white people came. it was many centuries before. and i think the anthropologists beleived that many Indians died at that earlier time because of some sort of epidemic.
Pete2


This is news to me - an overall population peak decimated by some mysterious disease "many centuries" before European contact. True, there is good evidence for population fluctuations in different areas over time. For instance, it looks like populations declined in southern California 6000 years ago or so, but this seems to correlate with unfavorable climate conditions, rather than a postulated epidemic of some sort.

Is there any more information on this notion?

Remember, population estimates are very tricky. Just because you don't find evidence of people doesn't mean that they weren't there.....
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#265193 - 11/18/13 07:58 PM Re: Is civilization artificial? [Re: benjammin]
Montanero Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 1111
Loc: North Carolina
If you read the accounts from the De Soto march through North America and the descriptions of the populations, then compare that with the next major European movement through the area (which was almost 200 years later) there was a major drop in population between the European accounts. There are recorded stories from Native Americans relating tales of widespread disease and large population losses. These also describe what appears to be small pox. De Soto's Spaniards carried other diseases as well.

Horses also came from the De Soto expedition, and by the time more Europeans came to the area, horses were already a critical part of many of the cultures. Just another indicator of the amount of time that passed.

There is evidence that a culture was in existence across North America that disappeared. Clovis point technology was predominant primarily in Eastern North America, though the first point was found in Clovis NM. Far more Clovis points have been found in the East than anywhere else, and they stop appearing at about the same time across the continent, and after that Folsom point technology takes its place. Clovis technology is also more similar to ancient European technology than to anything else. There is approximately 2,000 years (of more) between when Clovis points were used and when Folsom points were used. There are many theories about this, and I don't know enough about it to speak authoritatively, but it is an interesting point. Maybe the first cultures present in North America were from Europe, they died out and were replaced by migrations from Asia.

Top
Page 6 of 10 < 1 2 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, chaosmagnet, cliff 
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30 31
Who's Online
3 registered (Phaedrus, haertig, Pete), 266 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
DIYELECTROAL, rondha, burth, sgt253, PureTech
5222 Registered Users
Newest Posts
California Burning
by Pete
Inside a nuclear bunker built from 42 buses
by UTAlumnus
03:04 AM
Weather radio
by LesSnyder
02:51 AM
ETS Dream
by haertig
01:53 AM
Delorme inReach Lock Failure
by Russ
09:14 PM
Promising Snake Bite Therapy
by hikermor
10/16/17 06:32 PM
Ski glove snot wipe
by dougwalkabout
10/15/17 03:12 AM
Fitness over 60
by hikermor
10/14/17 02:00 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.