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#263567 - 09/17/13 12:26 PM Re: Grid Down Communications. [Re: dougwalkabout]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
I suspect HAMs regulate themselves individually and as a culture the same way we regulate ourselves individually/culturally in this forum. We do not have the right to do as we please; we have the privilege of participating. We give each other a kick under the table if we're pushing the boundary. And if we overstep, there is that giant Monty Python foot, poised to thin the herd.


Attracting the attention of the FCC's Enforcement Bureau seems to take a lot of concentrated foolishness. Those who have done so are best advised to cooperate fully. The fines leveled can be staggering, and they're far worse if you're uncooperative -- they call that "willful" violation.

Circling back to what happens on ham bands during an emergency, EMCOMM is one of the primary purposes of the Amateur Radio Service and most hams seem to remember that. Professionalism is highly valued. I suspect that as a group we're better at EMCOMM than many public safety agencies.

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#263569 - 09/17/13 01:44 PM Re: Grid Down Communications. [Re: chaosmagnet]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
One thing to keep in mind is that your average person probably doesn't have access to HAM equipment. It's not like cell phones or even CBs, where the equipment is highly prolific and easy to use/understand. Plus it's not like it's exactly popular or 'in vogue' right now.

Therefore, most of the people with the equipment and the know-how to use it are going to be licensed HAMs who wanted to be licensed HAMs. It represented a significant expenditure of time, effort, and money to them.

While there is always a few bad apples, most HAM operators understand how to operate and won't knowingly risk their license.

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#263570 - 09/17/13 02:38 PM Re: Grid Down Communications. [Re: chaosmagnet]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Many Cheap Portable dual band Transceivers (such as UHF and VHF Wouxun KG-UVD1P) HAM radios can be programmed to operate in FRS (USA channelized frequencies around 462 and 467 MHz) and PMR446 (UK Analog PMR446 covers band 446.0 - 446.1 MHz) but these unlicensed radio channels are limited to 500mW.

These portable HAM transceivers will broadcast at between 4000-5000 mW, enhancing range broadcast considerably.

How difficult would it be for the authorities to track down and locate these broadcasts let alone determine the broadcast power was illegal without some serious triangulation surveillance by the FCC's Enforcement Bureau let alone prove your handset was responsible especially in a grid down power outage?

Listening into HAMs on SW bands will rarely get you any useful information. I think I will concentrate on a 20W Satellite/PC notebook system powered from a 12V rechargeable Lithium battery. wink



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (09/17/13 02:39 PM)

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#263572 - 09/17/13 04:24 PM Re: Grid Down Communications. [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Many Cheap Portable dual band Transceivers (such as UHF and VHF Wouxun KG-UVD1P) HAM radios can be programmed to operate in FRS (USA channelized frequencies around 462 and 467 MHz) and PMR446 (UK Analog PMR446 covers band 446.0 - 446.1 MHz) but these unlicensed radio channels are limited to 500mW.

These portable HAM transceivers will broadcast at between 4000-5000 mW, enhancing range broadcast considerably.


In the USA those Part 90 radios may not be used to transmit at all on FRS, GMRS or MURS frequencies. The radios are not type-accepted for those services. That's not to say that people don't use them that way.

Quote:
How difficult would it be for the authorities to track down and locate these broadcasts let alone determine the broadcast power was illegal without some serious triangulation surveillance by the FCC's Enforcement Bureau let alone prove your handset was responsible especially in a grid down power outage?


Most commonly it depends on whether there are a number of volunteer fox hunters who are looking for you. In general, if you're obnoxious on the air hams will start looking for you, and if you keep transmitting you will be found. The FCC Enforcement Bureau reportedly appreciates it when hams hand them violators on a platter.

There may be people out there who own those Part 90 radios with the idea of using them illegally during a communications outage, and there may be a subset of them who will find ways to be not just illegal but obnoxious, but as far as I know it's not happening on any kind of large scale in places that have had such emergencies.

Quote:
Listening into HAMs on SW bands will rarely get you any useful information. I think I will concentrate on a 20W Satellite/PC notebook system powered from a 12V rechargeable Lithium battery. wink


Listening in to hams on SW will let you listen in on NTS nets, which may or may not be of any use. Quite likely not. Listening on VHF and UHF may get you more useful local information. My experience has been that if you're part of the local ham community you can figure out which operators are more likely to have useful information. In that respect it's like watching broadcast news; if you come at it cold without ever having watched before it will be harder to distinguish the wheat from the chaff.

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#263577 - 09/17/13 05:07 PM Re: Grid Down Communications. [Re: Nomad]
Nomad Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 493
Loc: Just wandering around.
I just did a quick calculation based on the frequency separation used on the FRS band where there are 14 frequencies. The nearest frequency band for amateurs is our 70cm band which runs from 420 mhz (million cycles per second) to 450 Mhz. a span of 30 Mhz.

Using the FRS frequency separation (frequency difference between channels) we have 2400 channels available.

Now figures lie because some of that is for amateur TV which uses much more width, and there is satellite work and many other wider band applications.

However this still leaves a big number of channels available. Also, at these frequencies, range is about 2-3 miles between hand held units. Add repeaters of course range goes up.

The point I am trying to make is that there is ample room for community wide communications. Congestion has never proven to be an issue. Even during events like the bombing in Boston or Hurricane Sandy, local communications was not impaired because of congestion.

On a regional or national level the situation is more complex. Operating a radio on the frequencies that provide regional, national or international coverage is complex and not just a matter of hooking an antenna to a radio and talking.

It is a carefully guarded secret but radios operate by using magic smoke inside the components. If you do things wrong, the magic smoke gets out and the radio does not work. <feeble humor attempt off>

That is part of the reason we suggest getting a license and learning how things work. Most folks take quite a while getting a long range (we call them HF for High Frequency) station together and operating. It is not very difficult, but it must be done right or the smoke gets out.

So far, even with the ability to communicate for thousands of miles, disasters like Haiti, the nuclear event in Japan and others have not been hampered by the problems speculated about in the posts above.

As to information reliability, this is a problem in the best of times. Ham radio is no different. You need to know your source and validate information from multiple sources. Can't even begin to do that without some sort of communications.

Nomad.
aka Ron, N1AHH
http://tinyurl.com/GDC-Welcome
_________________________
...........From Nomad.........Been "on the road" since '97

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#263578 - 09/17/13 05:27 PM Re: Grid Down Communications. [Re: Nomad]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA

all really good info here.i'm just using a old Hallicrafters S-38 to pick up what i can when i can.
i was thinking of a real big time TEOTWAWKI jam up on the airwaves and not local or national events that would be over in weeks and could be followed on TV or the web.

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